Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Angel Dumott Schunard

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Can't sleep, clown will eat me 06:30, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Angel Dumott Schunard

Angel Dumott Schunard (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

No clue. User:BaronessofBud started the Afd - I'm just completing it for completeness' sake SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 07:02, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

• Keep: Love the musical, the character is reasonably notable IMHO. -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 07:02, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
• Delete: It has nothing to do with loving he musical or not. The article is atrocious; any information on the character is easily found on the RENT page. If Angel's notable enough, why not make a page for the Squeegee man? Or any character in any work, for that matter?
• Keep Angel is a gay and TG icon who embodies the spirit of self-empowerment of People With AIDS and finds true love with another gay man of color making Angel also a hero in the AIDS communities, MSM community and those supporting gay marriages. Benjiboi 13:19, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
• Delete RENT does that in the first place. There's no need for excess articles on the subject. Besides, most of the article is either presupposition and reiteration of facts already displayed on the RENT page. It isn't a question of politics, it's a question of organization.

  Comment Disagree, although the musical does eventually do some (but not all) of those things this character is the driving force and tragic hero of the musical and movie. Duplicative material will be lessened as article is allowed to expand covering areas that would be giving undue weight in main article but appropriate in an expanded character article. Benjiboi 14:19, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

  Comment If you have ever even seen RENT, you would know that Angel is not the tragic hero in tis story; Roger is. Your comment is pretty nonsensical, no offense. Can I make up an entire history about Angel? We apparently do not need to cite sources as is evident from the article. Or maybe I should just describe, in detail, his appearance, or even quote every line he had. That would flesh out the article a bit. User:BaronessofBud

  reply Have seen it and the entire story is set at Angel's funeral with the rest of the story as flashbacks, Angel is the inspiration for the film and drove other characters to make better choices and listen to their better angels. True that Angel might not be considered the tragic hero as all of the characters have tragic hero components. Maybe anti-hero is more semantically soothing. In any case, Angel is the freak outsider of the bunch who leads the rest to make better choices, finds true love then dies in his arms. Benjiboi 16:03, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

• Delete because this is all original research. We do not need articles about every single character, setting, prop, or song from every show ever produced, when those articles are simply going to restate the parts of the show that are related to the article's subject. And for the record, I've seen RENT four times. Propaniac 14:32, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

  Comment disagree there as well. This plays development and work-shopping through to it's Broadway debut and numerous incarnations have been well documented. WP:OR hardly needed. Benjiboi 16:07, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

  • Fill up the article with sourced information proving that Angel Dumott Schunard is a notable character outside the confines of the show's narrative, and I will be happy to change my vote. Propaniac 16:31, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
    • I'm afraid I'm not terribly inspired by your directive but thank you for the vote of contingency. Benjiboi 17:03, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
• Redirect to Rent (musical), unless more sources can be provided discussing the character. The addition of any such sources — for example, an interview with Wilson Jermaine Heredia discussing his Tony Award-winning role, or any reliable source discussing the character as a positively portrayed transgender character/positively portrayed character with AIDS — would be sufficient to change my !vote to "keep". —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 22:54, 6 August 2007 (UTC) Changing my !vote to Keep, per the sources Crystallina found. Good work! —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 17:04, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment - I've found both. Crystallina 13:10, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
• Delete as per Propaniac -- Kleinzach 10:52, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
• Delete - WP:OR. --Hirohisat ^Talk 05:25, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
• Redirect to RENT. The cheap and easy solution to stuff like this, I don't always understand the rush to AFD some things. Someguy1221 05:40, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
• Hold your horses - This article is unsourced, but it doesn't have to be. I'm working on finding sources. Here's an interview with Wilson Cruz, one of the replacement Angels, from Oasis Magazine, a LGBT-themed publication. It goes in depth about Angel's character and status as a gay icon. There are more out there; I'm working on finding them. Crystallina 05:45, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
  • comment: OK, here's what I've got so far. Basically trashed the whole article and started from scratch. I know there's more out there; it's just 3 AM and I'm getting too tired to do this. Crystallina 07:06, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
• Delete or Merge to a Rent characters article - does not appear to be independently notable. Claims of iconhood require sources and none appear to be forthcoming. Otto4711 06:26, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
• Redirect to Rent (musical). On its own, this is not notable enough a subject for a stand-alone article. Combined with the other characters, there's not much to be said that isn't already in the article for the musical. —  MusicMaker5376 15:57, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
• Delete/Merge - Looking through the refs, few of them even mention this character, let alone give "significant coverage" Corpx 17:00, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
  • comment - I'm not sure where you're getting this; the only reference that doesn't mention Angel specifically is the tracklisting for Forbidden Broadway, and I'm looking for a better source on that. Crystallina 17:23, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Mmmmm, I searched for "Schunard" in those articles and came up with no hits. Let me try with the first name Corpx 17:35, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
      • I went through the links again and it looks like only the New York Blade article gives "significant coverage", and even that can be argued. "Oasis" does give significant coverage, but it looks like it is a blog, so it does not qualify as a significant source Corpx 17:40, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
        • I think you're using an unnecessarily restrictive definition of "significant coverage". I fail to see how the Broadway.com page, which gives extensive details about the role and the actors who have played it, is insignificant; and while the newspaper articles mention the character only in passing, at least one of them (the Taipei Times article) gives important real-world context (the author's source for the character). Crystallina is to be commended for finding reliable sources for the article. If only all fictional character articles were so well-sourced. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 18:32, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
      • I do not think broadway.com is an independent source for this subject. As for taipei.com, a two line coverage is not enough to qualify as "significant coverage" per my standards Corpx 00:33, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
        • Well, then it's your definition of "independent source" that is unnecessarily restrictive. Broadway.com covers all Broadway and West End plays. Yes, they sell tickets for them and advertise for them, but if that makes them not an "independent source" then Rolling Stone magazine isn't an independent source for music coverage. (They sell concert tickets, and have advertising for albums and concerts.) Honestly, it looks as if you're just trying to find excuses to delete the page. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 05:45, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
      • The main purpose of the site is to sell tickets, hotel packages and other materials, so I do not think they're "independent". Any coverage they give to a topic should be taken with the consideration that their main purpose is promotional Corpx 05:53, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
        • I still think that's far too restrictive an interpretation of "independent", but you're entitled to your opinion. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 06:16, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
• Weak Keep per above. I would keep this article and toss away some of the other character articles for Rent. This one has real significance. Yes, for the record, I am a Renthead as noted on my user page. Bearian 22:41, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
• Delete/redirect to Rent (musical). A fictional character who has appeared in one musical and one movie based on the musical does not require his own article. warpedmirror (talk) 17:50, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.