Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Anatoli Vassiljevitsch Ivanov
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- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. An astounding ammount of argumentation spun up by one user, but no evidence that the subject actually meets WP:BIO... this article is in question on nearly every Wiki. W.marsh 15:19, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Anatoli Vassiljevitsch Ivanov
See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Gal Rasché for a primer on the author before voting.
This is a yet another multiple-Wiki contribution by Djiggy / 84.113.1.108.
This person's notability seems to be impossible to verify (0 in Google), which is odd for a modern, acclaimed composer of international fame, and a headnoted member of several professional organizations; if you Google for him without the middle name, Anatoli Ivanov yields a couple of film producers and other possibly notable persons, but nothing that would match this bio.
The ISBN referenced in the article seems to be bogus ([1], [2]).
Update: as noted below in my response to Djiggy, contrary to his claims, this article was deleted on de.wiki after AfD in January (links below), then he attempted to re-create it (which resulted in speedy deletion, again references below), and the same day finally managed to post it under a different name with one admin deleting it, but restoring it several hours later (with no comment and no talk page entry).
- I think you may be going a bit too far in this, see my comment below and look closely at the German AfD page. Bansp 01:28, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
- Quite possibly. At this point, I'm simply confused, so all, please read the discussion below and draw your own conclusions. --lcamtuf 01:44, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
lcamtuf 14:09, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Delete But I have to concede being slightly impressed the person was willing to create a hoax on 10 foreign language Wikipedias as well. The powers of Babel Fish? Or do we have a hoaxing polyglot on our hands.--T. Anthony 14:32, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
- No longer certain either way, although I still edge more toward delete. Still due to doubts I'm switching to not voting.--T. Anthony 15:46, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
- Any translation company will be happy to serve you. Pavel Vozenilek 15:31, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
- Delete For what its worth, I did a search on rambler.ru, a russian search site and found very little, maybe 173 hits. Keeping in mind of course that Ivanov is about as common as Smith, this is underwhelming. The Russian percussionist assocation (Российской Ассоциации исполнителей на ударных инструментах) pulled up exactly one hit and its to Russian Wikipedia. I wouldn;t say its a hoax, but a polyglot vanity piece for an unknown Russian musician. Montco 14:38, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
- Delete, astroturfing campaign. Pavel Vozenilek 15:31, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
- Comment Ironic support, given that Houston was on AfD right below this. TTV (MyTV|PolygonZ|Green Valley) 18:51, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
- Keep, sorry but this is not a hoax, please buy his book and read all this, you can go to your state library, im sure that you will find it there, and also in russian wikipedia, this article was editied by the students of prof. Iwanow. This article was also translated in all the languages by my firends, so that i can post it in the different wikipedias. I PERSONNALY know prof. Iwanow. So i dont understand, why should it be a hoax. And now i also do not know how should i verify my posts in all other wikipedias, which decided to delete this article, becuase i dont understand all of these languages, hmmh. And i dont understand why if this article has been verifyed in the german wikipedia, whould it be veryfied in all oithers? it is a translation guys 1:1!!! --Djiggy 22:38, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
- Comment: it is my understanding that for Mr. Ivanov, the result of de.wiki AfD was delete (voting here), after which you recreated the article under the same name, which resulted in speedy deletion ([3]), and then the same day, you uploaded it under a different name, where it was first deleted, then restored ([4]). As such, this might be a poor way to defend your article, unless further explanations are given by that admin? --lcamtuf 00:08, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
- Comment: The article which was deleted on dewiki, was completely another one. After i translated an article from ruwiki it was restored. Please contact an admin which restored it, if you dont belive me--Djiggy 00:23, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
- Comment The article was openly restored by an admin, de:User:Schwalbe, as is clearly stated on the AfD page cited above. Bansp 01:22, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
- Comment You can also approve this by looking at log - [5]--Djiggy 01:27, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
- Comment: it is my understanding that for Mr. Ivanov, the result of de.wiki AfD was delete (voting here), after which you recreated the article under the same name, which resulted in speedy deletion ([3]), and then the same day, you uploaded it under a different name, where it was first deleted, then restored ([4]). As such, this might be a poor way to defend your article, unless further explanations are given by that admin? --lcamtuf 00:08, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
- Comment He is not "head of a couple organizations", just a member; he only heads the sadly ungooglable Russian Percussionist Association, which is a shame but it does not necessarily mean the whole thing is a hoax. Remember that Google is somewhat less effective as a verifying tool if you can't handle cyrillic and/or don't know Russian. I don't know your notability criteria guys, so I'm not going to vote myself, but let me give you a few addresses as a basis for whatever you're going to decide. The ISBN is well-formed, but the book is hard to find anyway -- here's one link, with a photo of the cover (not my find), here's one to his three books: [6], here are two that appear to confirm the ISBN: photo, no photo, and one more to round it off to 5. There is also a page where he is described as a prominent specialist and a professor of the Petersburg conservatory, and two where his rendering of Tschaikovsky's Children's Album can or could be bought. Happy voting, Bansp 01:18, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
- Comment Hoax was wrong of me. Still the notability is unclear. A search with even the Cyrillic name, subtracting Wikipedia, doesn't get much.[7] Many of those seem to be referring to a different person. The Russian version of the article was started by Gal Rasche.--T. Anthony 04:31, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
- Comment I agree that verifying information about him is difficult, but this is something different from a hoax, and deleting the article need not be the best cure for that -- research is. Regarding google: Russian is a heavily inflected language and you have to search for him also in cases other than the nominative. Another thing is that while in the English part of the Web, you can sometimes find info even about your neighbour's dog, this isn't so for Russian, although the Russian web is much better developed than, say, its Byelorussian counterpart. Information is simply not so readily available on that side of the globe. Now about the ruwiki article: while you are correct that Galrashe started it, her self-promotion has been removed by another user, to whom I already wrote asking for sources on Ivanov. So there is some hope we'll learn more about him from an objective source. Once again: his notability is not that of a film star, he seems to be just a guy doing his job a bit better than others, in several respects. Whether to keep him or not will be your decision, all I'm asking is for him not to be treated on a par with the person who used him as a ladder, that just wouldn't be fair. Bansp 12:16, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
- Comment Here is an interview with him [8]--Djiggy 01:25, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
- Comment Hoax was wrong of me. Still the notability is unclear. A search with even the Cyrillic name, subtracting Wikipedia, doesn't get much.[7] Many of those seem to be referring to a different person. The Russian version of the article was started by Gal Rasche.--T. Anthony 04:31, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
- Comment Can't help adding that I share Lcamtuf's suspicion that we are looking at a rather massive advertising campaign of the Rashe gal. I think part of it was posting an article about someone real and reasonably notable, and hooking the gal's bio to it. As a result of bad timing and thanks to the alertness of our plwiki colleague, pl:User:Ziel, the wannabe-star is now falling down still hooked to her ladder (i.e. her teacher). I'd suggest leaving the prof be and burning the witch. Bansp 01:39, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
- Comment I dont think that it is a good idea. Hmm, i dont think that you saw many women which are conducting. It is not a usual profession for women. Thats why this article was also left on de.wiki and thats why ive written this article there. I would leave both articles and maybe delete all crosslinking. --Djiggy 01:57, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
- Comment. Yandex search yielded several dozen entries. The guy wrote a book about his work with Mravinsky, a dude who premiered six symphonies by Shostakovich, Symphony No. 6 (Prokofiev), etc. If you think Ivanov is not notable, why don't you prod Mravinsky? All these names may sound suspicious to an American ear, while in Russian Wikipedia 1987 (What the Fuck Is Going On?) (the subject of a featured article in this project) would not pass a notability test. We definitely have different standards of notability. --Ghirla -трёп- 07:21, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
- Regarding Yandex, the search results need solid sifting, cause there are several people by this name, including at least one pretty well known musician (like, this isn't our guy). While I agree with the general spirit of your comment, I'd suggest pointing at more specific sources (which of course we might need to delegate to Djiggy, as probably the most fluent in Russian among us here; finding a Russian speaker not involved in this campaign would be even better). Regards, Bansp 10:54, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
- Comment Some more findings, with picture -> here and here. And under this address you will find some concert records, which were conducted by Mravinsky and Mr. Iwanow as a solist. Unfortunatly his initial is mistyped in english trnaslation. --Djiggy 07:51, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
- Comment One more finding here and here on Amazon--Djiggy 08:14, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
- When in doubt: keep. But change the title to the translit version we use here. //Halibutt 11:44, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
- Cautious keep per Halibutt. --Ghirla -трёп- 13:09, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
- Comment Here are his publications in a quite popular vienneese music store "Doblinger" -> [9], [10]--djiggy 13:36, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
- Comment And here is the page of his student in Russia.--djiggy 13:36, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
- Comment Thank you, Djiggy, for reposting some of the links from plwiki -- I was too tired to do that yesterday night. Now, can we get you to show us something concerning Ivanov's presidency of that union/association? I understand it was you as ru:user:Galrasche who added this information to his Russian page, isn't that right? And let me add to the link depository: here are links that can be cross-checked against the one supplied by Djiggy, where it really looks like they misspelled Ivanov's initial: [11] and [12], repeated as [13], which additionally confirms that Ivanov played the timpani in the Leningrad Philharmonic Orchestra as early as '65. Those two "albums" from the Austrian shop (what kind of publication is that, anyway? paper or vinyl? any hints, Djiggy?) confirm the list of three publications I posted earlier: [14]. The interview that Djiggy mentioned earlier (it comes from a book by a Russian radio/press reporter) mentions that Ivanov's cooperation with Evgeny Mravinsky lasted 23 yrs, which also confirms the date of Ivanov's joining Mravinsky's orchestra, and also that he remained there after Mravinsky's death, under Yuri Temirkanov. It mentions further that he was a soloist and also headed a percussion section of the Orchestra, and that he composed a few pieces (ten are mentioned altogether, but it is not meant to be an exhaustive list). Bansp 14:31, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
- Comment Yes it was me who added information about Iwanows presidency of the association on ruwiki. I dont think that it possible to find any links which can confirm this at the moment, so i wasnt able to find any. The reason for this could be that the association was created only one year ago and Iwanow was one of the grounders. My source of this information was Iwanow himself. At the moment he is travelling much mainly in Russia to rucruit the members. I will search further, but i think my search for facts wouldn't be very successful because at the moment this organisation is simply to small. The publications in austrain shop are the same as here and here. These two volumes are the guide for the starters, who want to play percussions. But his main work is the transcription of Tchaikovsky's "Children's Album". Here is a link to the announcement of his concert in St. Petersburg's Phillarmony on 24.03.04.--djiggy 15:43, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
- Comment Thank you, Djiggy, for reposting some of the links from plwiki -- I was too tired to do that yesterday night. Now, can we get you to show us something concerning Ivanov's presidency of that union/association? I understand it was you as ru:user:Galrasche who added this information to his Russian page, isn't that right? And let me add to the link depository: here are links that can be cross-checked against the one supplied by Djiggy, where it really looks like they misspelled Ivanov's initial: [11] and [12], repeated as [13], which additionally confirms that Ivanov played the timpani in the Leningrad Philharmonic Orchestra as early as '65. Those two "albums" from the Austrian shop (what kind of publication is that, anyway? paper or vinyl? any hints, Djiggy?) confirm the list of three publications I posted earlier: [14]. The interview that Djiggy mentioned earlier (it comes from a book by a Russian radio/press reporter) mentions that Ivanov's cooperation with Evgeny Mravinsky lasted 23 yrs, which also confirms the date of Ivanov's joining Mravinsky's orchestra, and also that he remained there after Mravinsky's death, under Yuri Temirkanov. It mentions further that he was a soloist and also headed a percussion section of the Orchestra, and that he composed a few pieces (ten are mentioned altogether, but it is not meant to be an exhaustive list). Bansp 14:31, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
- Delete per nom. The guy may be for real, and has made at least one recording with the Leningrad Phil as a featured percussionist does not make him notable. Cannot see how he passes WP:BIO. Ohconfucius 06:24, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
- Comment It' not only a recording, where you should look at. Moreover, do you really think that in his 23 years long carreer at Leningrad Phillarmonic Orchestra - the most famous orchestra in Russia - he has made only one reording? The reason for this, that you cannot find his name on other cds is just because that it is not usual to print a cast of the whole orchestra(About 200 Members!!!) in the booklet or even in the internet. --djiggy 09:33, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
