Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/American patriotic music

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep, with no prejudice against renomination if the article does not improve substantially in the next few months. Nandesuka (talk) 10:59, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] American patriotic music

American patriotic music (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) (delete) – (View log)

As per Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of patriotic songs , all the issues their apply here.Fails WP:OR, WP:NPOV,WP:Cite and WP:V Gnevin (talk) 20:16, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

  • Keep – I do believe the page should be changed from “Music” to “Marches”. With that said, there is enough Scholarly work out there, as shown here, [1], to substantiate a piece here on Wikipedia. I’ll work on it, as this Afd winds its way through the process. Thanks ShoesssS Talk 20:42, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
    • Comment All I see in that search result is the term being used. Where's the scholarly work that treats the subject of patriotic song or patriotic march in detail? --Bardin (talk) 04:49, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment Define Patriotic? In the current guise Born in the USA could be included. Is their a definition of Marches ? Gnevin (talk) 20:57, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Hey Gnevin, thank god I do not have to do that :-). That is why I went to Google Scholar, as noted above. I let bigger brains than mine get involved with the meaning of things. I just copy over what I read. Without plagiarizing, of course :-). ShoesssS Talk 21:08, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Music-related deletion discussions. -- Fabrictramp | talk to me 23:12, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment All-American Original Research!!! Not ready to say delete, because it would be so easy to source this and make it a little bit more intelligent of an article. Mandsford (talk) 01:14, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep. It's different from the list page because it's not clear that the list could ever be improved. American patriotic music is a well-studied and widely-documented subject, so this article can be much improved. The fact that it has not yet been so improved is not a valid reason for deletion. Tuf-Kat (talk) 02:24, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep, this is much more easily sourced as a topic than the favecruft that was the list. There is no particular reason to limit it to marches, either, as many key American patriotic songs (the National Anthem, for starters) are not remotely marches. So it needs sources. So does half this encyclopedia. --Dhartung | Talk 03:39, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete Please note that there is also a corresponding category and template related to this article. I feel that this is blatantly original research without any verifiability to support the contention that any of the songs mentioned are patriotic. It seems to me that editors are just adding songs that they personally feel are patriotic to the article, category or template. We have the controversial Courtesy of the Red, White, & Blue (The Angry American) listed in the category. We have a civil rights protest song We Shall Overcome in the template. We have the war song The British Grenadiers in the article. What about songs like PT-109 or Lift Every Voice and Sing? What exactly does all these songs have in common that makes them patriotic? Whose patriotism is this? The conservatives? The liberals? The African-Americans? The KKK? The God fearing believer? The atheist? The military? The anti-war protestors? A patriotic song to one is a rebel song to another. There is no clear inclusion criteria to the article, category or template. We have folk songs, gospel songs, war songs, protest songs, even modern pop songs all arbitrarily included as patriotic songs with no consideration to context or subjectivity. This article should simply be deleted per WP:OR. --Bardin (talk) 04:49, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep. I agree that the article begs for sources, but the mere names John Phillip Sousa and George M. Cohan establish the legitimacy of the subject. Should not be renamed. WillOakland (talk) 21:42, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
    • Comment FYI, neither the article page for Sousa nor the article page for Cohan used the word patriotic anywhere. That people perceive some songs as patriotic is obvious enough but where are the reliable sources that voters keep asserting can be cited? --Bardin (talk) 02:38, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep This is a core little bit of American history. Shouldn't it be something like Patriotic music of the United States? rootology (T) 01:22, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep For an article that's been around as long as this one, the lack of citations is troubling, as the subject certainly is part of musicology. There are reliable sources which can and should be cited in this article. We already have a Patriotism article, with "Patriotic song" as a redirect to it. A "Patriotic song" such as America the Beautiful should ideally link to this article once it's improved and properly sourced. JGHowes talk - 04:20, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
    • As a said before, this is a standard part of musicology taught at the elementary school level, where students learn about different styles of music which define time periods and respective cultures. See the Fayette County School teachers' syllabus here: you'll note that "Patriotic songs" is explicitly stated to be a required part of the core content of the curriculum, along with folk songs, marches, spirituals, blues, etc. Here's an article and knowledge quiz on American patriotic songs from the Sacramento Bee: [2]. Wikipedia, as an online encyclopedia, should keep this article so people can find the answers. And here's what the U.S. NIEHS website has about American patriotic songs: [3]. This is just scratching the surface to show that the subject meets WP:N and the article's title is fine as-is. JGHowes talk - 02:28, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
      • Comment Nobody is questioning the fact that people use the term patriotic to describe some songs. It would be easy to find sources that use such adjectives as patriotic, good, bad, dumb, stupid or even racist to describe songs. That does not mean we should create articles on American good music or American racist music because neither subject could possibly exist on wikipedia as anything other than original research dictated by the whims and fancies of subjective perceptions. Likewise with this American patriotic music article. None of those sites you provided would be of any help in improving this article to be something more than just original research. Would you all be voting keep if this article was on anti-American songs instead? --Bardin (talk) 04:39, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
        • As a matter of fact there are a couple of articles here about American racist music, "Minstrel show," and "Coon song", both of which are quite significant in American musical heritage. WillOakland (talk) 12:19, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep, on probation This article needs sources, and it needs 'em bad. In particular, the definition of whether a song is "patriotic" needs to be made by a reliable source, and not by WP. The topic is notable and valuable, and I would like to see a good article here. But many of the concerns detailed by the "delete" votes are valid, and if they are not addressed then I would vote "delete" in the future. --BlueMoonlet (t/c) 03:00, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.