Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Amazing Race 5 contestants

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus to delete. W.marsh 19:55, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Amazing Race 5 contestants

Amazing Race 5 contestants (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)
  • Fails WP:NOT criteria on indiscriminate info. Article simply groups biographies of numerous non-notable individuals who fail WP:BIO. Important race details are already covered on The Amazing Race 5, additional bio details on this page are simply copied from CBS' official site. The Amazing Race 5 article already contains an external link to racer biographies on the official site. Madchester 22:25, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep There are a number of individual articles about the contestants in the Amazing Race that already exist. Some of the articles about individual contestants have been deleted or redirected. Including summary biographies of each of the contestants on the The Amazing Race 5 helps make the original article more encyclopedic.
The information here was culled from several sources. Including a brief summary of who each of the contestants was not only makes the article more informative but reflects the whole nature of the show. Not including the information leaves out some critical information about the race. Also, since this information is found elsewhere on fan sites and commercial sites, it begs the question, why isn’t some NPOV information presented here.
Including this information on the Amazing Race 5 would make it larger and unwieldy, hence the creation of this subpage not only allows brief biographies of all the contestants, but helps make the original article more encyclopedic. This is in keeping with both WP:NOT and meet WP:BIO for notability standards. Also, if some of the contestants have significant post-Race accomplishments, the simple information here can be later expanded. --evrik (talk) 22:31, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete 1. Why just have an article for this season? 2. Most of the bios contain very little outside race info, and the ones that have a lot already have their own articles. --TeckWizParlateContribs@ 22:47, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment Including this information on the Amazing Race 5 would make it larger. If this page gets deleted, then the information should be pasted into the AR5 page. --evrik (talk) 22:55, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment. Then you're basically using this page to prove a point which is not permitted. --Madchester 23:40, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment The nomination appears to be somewhat flawed. First, WP:NOT#IINFO doesn't cover cast lists/lists of game show participants/etc. It's pretty specific on the areas it covers, and this isn't one of those areas. The list might fall under WP:NOT#DIRECTORY as a "list of loosely associated topics", but that's debatable since there are other generally accepted cast lists for other shows, including game shows such as Survivor. And since the list entries actually go into a little enyclopedic style detail on the individual people, it's not simply a directory of names. The nomination also assert, perhaps presumptively, that all the individuals on the list are not notable. But that isn't necessarilly the case, as we do have some articles about people who are primarily notable for being game show contestents because of the amount of verifiable published articles about them.
So basically so far I'm not convinced that the article deserves deletion by the arguments presented above. If the question is whether or not this material should be merged, a better way to go about it might be to try a merge tag and discuss it on the talk pages of the articles to be merged. Off hand I don't see a reason yet for deletion. Dugwiki 23:33, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment. A redirect or delete is the most appropriate solution. The contestants are non-notable and the biographical info is already provided in the external links of the main article. --Madchester 23:40, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
I should mention that not all of the contestents have to be notable for the list as a whole to be notable. For example, an article about a tv series will usually have a cast list, and sometimes the cast list is split off as a seperate article due to its size. Not all the actors on the cast list are necessarilly individually notable, but the cast list as a whole for the show does usually have notability. So I can definitely see people reasonably arguing that this cast list article for this show is likewise, as a whole, notable, even though not everyone on the cast would be notable enough for their own article. Dugwiki 17:04, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep - the authors of the page have done exactly what they should do. They took some related articles that might have beeen stubby on their own and make them into one fairly good article. This type of work is to be commended. Johntex\talk 23:55, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment The Amazing Race, while not on the same caliber ratings- and notability-wise as Survivor, has produced over its years a large set of contestants. Many Survivor contestants, including pretty much all the winners and runners-up, have their own page, and I don't think it would be a necessarily bad thing to have a brief page describing a few notes about each contestant (with perhaps a bit more info than what's available on the CBS site). I think at the very least, if we can't make individual pages for the winners, then make them like a "team" page, like, for example, Derek and Drew Riker. Chip & Kim, I would say, are notable winners, as well as Flo, and there are several, SEVERAL contestants who, while they didn't win, could easily merit their own page (a Charla Faddoul page, I think, is long overdue....)--HansTAR 00:20, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep and rename to The Amazing Race 5 contestants. I have proposed here and here expanding the scope of WP:FICT and WP:BIO to include reality show contestants and allow for this type of a list article, under the theory that within the context of the programs they are "characters" as much as any fictional character from a drama or sitcom. This sort of article strikes me as a reasonable compromise for those who want a little more detail on the contestants than would comfortably fit in The Amazing Race 5 and those who would like separate articles on every contestant or team. Watch this article and similar articles for a while and see how they do. If they become unmanageable or unwieldly they can be put up for deletion at that time.
  • To answer the question as to why only this season has such an article, it is in some measure because Amazing Race 10 contestants was created and then summarily redirected to The Amazing Race 10. Other seasonal articles may also have been created and redirected; I haven't checked. I reject the notion that this is an indiscriminate collection of information, and anyone who's been following my AFDs over the last week or so knows I love using that as a reason for getting rid of lists. Otto4711 00:42, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment As a compromise to the deletion of the David and Mary Conley articles, I had suggested that a single page be created, Amazing Race 10 contestants, to encompass all the contestants. I went to work developing that page and similar pages for each of the seasons of TAR. Prior to my posting my work, I got a message from Madchester that led me to believe that this would not be welcome. I had laid out the structure on each of the pages for a ‘’Contestants” subpage, and created contestant pages, and was going to post them and any appropriate merge tags. Instead of causing an even bigger fiasco I decided to post just a single page and see how that was accepted. Madchester immediately prod’ed and afd’ed the article, which brings us to today. --evrik (talk) 20:56, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep, the article is sourced and verifiable and nicely combines information that on its own would only consist of numerous stubs into a reasonable article. --Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 11:30, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete, this article is... how should I put this... up for deletion? Auroranorth 12:21, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
AfD is a discussion not a vote. Your comment was a vote so I have striken it. If you wish to participate in this discussion, address Wikipedia's policies and what people have been saying above.--Konstable 23:23, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete Trivial beyond belief. (And if I am wrong the article should contest that. But it doesn’t.) —Ian Spackman 18:14, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete fails WP:VERIFY - the only source is a self-referencing reality TV-show home page. While the topic probably merits an article and putting them together like this is a better solution than a bunch of stubs, one should only be created from reliable sources.--Konstable 23:23, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep I think this page actually serves a valuable purpose for pointing out connections between racers (for example, until I was working on this, I had no idea that both Alison Irwin and Erika Shay participated in the same beauty pageant) and providing short biographies for contestants who do not have their own article (Erika Shay being a case in point, being Miss Pennsylvania Teen USA 1995 is well worth a mention considering the number of former beauty queens on the series). As for verifiability - the article clearly needs work but as I have shown [1] [2], simply putting some effort into the article shows that there are in fact a number of decent references out there. -- PageantUpdater • talk | contribs | esperanza 02:06, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep Good information. --South Philly 21:31, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep per evrik. Being a popular TV show, contestants are certainly notable. » K i G O E | talk 04:59, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete. Why? There aren't any pages on the other seasons, and this doesn't meet the guidelines well enough. REDIRECT to Amazing Race 5. It would beef up the main article.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.18.226.45 (talk • contribs) 00:19, 19 February 2007
    • Comment in my opinion, the article is now far too long for the main article. As for pages on other season, I'm more than willing to create, research and reference articles on the other seasons (and would be keen to start now) but I see no point in doing so until this AFD is resolved in favour of either keeping or deleting the page. If the consensus is to delete, then any other pages created would also have to be deleted and thus the time and effort spent on creating them would be pointless. -- PageantUpdater • talk | contribs | esperanza 06:44, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment The reason that there are no other articles for the other seasons is that before I had a chance to post them (and they are done) MadChester started prodding, the he afd'ed this article. When this artilce survives the afd, I'll go ahead and post the others. --evrik (talk) 22:13, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete, as none of these people are notable outside of the show. Merge whatever relevant info there is here that may not be on the main Season 5 page. Tarc 16:51, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep. Better than a bunch of stubs, and would make the main page untidy. --Limegreen 19:54, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment, to all those who suggest delete and merge/redirect: the process of merging articles does not involve deletion of one of them. Per the GFDL, author history should be preserved when merging contents, so deletion of one of the source articles is out of the question. Delete and redirect is only possible when explicitely not merging content. --Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 09:14, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment: As noted, taking out all but original research and merging the article back into the main TAR5 article would make the main TAR5 too large. However, leaving the basic information from this article on a page by itself would make this page too small and, as noted, worthy of deletion. For someone who's trying to make a similar page for TAR1, my suggestion there, and applies here, is that there should be a single "Notable Contestants from The Amazing Race" with season-specific sections. This doesn't require each team be listed, only those notable outside of the show (even if it's post-show fame they've capitalized on); doing a page for the entire show helps to prevent minimal per-season pages, though there's no reason that if a single season has many notable people as to make the overall show page too heavy, that that single season can be moved into a single page leaving a note on the all-season page. The idea being, like currently argued about some Survivor contestants, is that a per-person/team page is kruft since most of these people disappear after being on their show, but a catchall page for notable entries avoids much of this.--Masem 14:38, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment Most of the page has been an aggragation of other sources, and that is not original research. The page is fine as it is. --evrik (talk) 15:26, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.