Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Allen Hospital

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was (11k, 9d, 2m) no consensus. - Mailer Diablo 16:59, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Allen Hospital

non-notable hospital. User:Zoe|(talk) 03:43, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

  • Keep, established hospital. Kappa 04:49, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
    • Established is not notable. User:Zoe|(talk) 05:02, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
      1. Yes it is.
      2. Requiring notability is not policy. Kappa 19:59, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
      • It may not be written policy, but it's fairly much de facto policy. In fact, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Precedents, the word "notable" (or "notability") is used no less than 35 times. You yourself have used the argument that schools are "inherently notable". Well, you can't have it both ways, Kappa. Denni☯ 03:41, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
        • I don't require notability, but obviously I vote to keep anything notable. Kappa 01:35, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
          • We obviously have different definitions on what is "notable". Is there a possibility of us finding consensus? I would much rather have you as an ally than an enemy. Denni☯ 04:24, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
  • DeleteNon notable.--Dakota
  • Keep as notable hospital in northern Iowa. 14,600 Google results including media results see [1]. Capitalistroadster 05:13, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
    • Please tell me what, exactly, is notable about it. Dpbsmith (talk) 01:46, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep as per Capitalistroadster. btm 09:11, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete Not notable as per Zoe. Creating an Iowa Health System page and inclusion as an entry may be preferable. Movementarian 10:21, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep as per Capitalistroadster. --Explodicle 17:57, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete as per Zoe. Almost every hospital will have a lot of search results, but that does not make them notable. A hospital might be notable if it does unusual work or is a highly regarded research institution. Allen Hospital is not that kind of hospital, and is rather small, too. There's 6,000 hospitals in the United States, and probably 5 to 10 times that many in the world. In addition, articles on hospitals need periodic updating, which would be an enormous task with so many articles. Lists of hospitals by state would be large, but far more manageable. Even a table with basic information, like the city, number of beds and any specialties, like neonatal, would be preferable. -- Kjkolb 17:57, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
  • KEEP. While I see that some people find this to be a non-notable hospital, I'm sure that it matters to the community which is served by it. As for the argument that someone will have to monitor the hospital listings and monitor, isn't that what Wikipedia is, a community of people who contribute where and when its needed? C'mon, small communities matter, too. Stu 20:25, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep. Most of the 50,000 hospitals across the world qualify for a WP article under our usual notability standards. This hospital is one of them. Owen× ☎ 22:33, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
    • Please cite the relevant policy page that says what our usual notability standards are so I can judge that for myself. Dpbsmith (talk) 00:23, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
      • There is no such policy, which is why I used the term "standards". When something has or is affecting the lives of thousands, we generally consider it to be notable. We are currently working on a policy for companies; using the same principles, a hospital with 230 beds and 900 babies delivered each year will more than likely pass such criteria. Owen× ☎ 00:48, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete Here, watch this:
      1. I, Shane, am verifyable. Ask anyone. I have documents.
      2. I do not, in any way, deserve an article on wikipedia.

Interesting, no? --InShaneee 23:32, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

  • Actually, you do. The mere fact of a phenomenon's existence makes it notable enough for inclusion. Kurt Weber 01:26, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
    InShaneee:
  1. How many people have used your services?
  2. How many lives have been affected by you?
  3. How many years have you been a prominent institution in your community?
  • With all due respect, most hospitals are more deserving of an encyclopedia entry than you, InShaneee. Owen× ☎ 00:01, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
    I won't comment about how many people has used my services, and I'm not arguing that a hospital is more notable than me. The question is, how MUCH more? The only arguments I'm seeing for it's inclusion is that A. It's verifyable (which I am too) and that B. Lot of people have used it (which is true of each and every one of my dorms bathrooms). I'm just saying that if you're going to draw a line of precendent in the sand here, it could stand to be a bit clearer. --InShaneee 00:56, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
    Fair comment. We are trying to come up with this line in the sand for corporations in WP:CORP. Please join the discussion there--I would welcome your opinion! Owen× ☎ 01:47, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete as per Zoe and Kjkolb. MCB 01:02, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep The mere fact of something's existence makes it notable enough for inclusion. Kurt Weber 01:26, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete, unless someone comes up with something notable about this hospital, where "notable" means something that "distinguishes" it from thousands of other hospitals. Dpbsmith (talk) 01:45, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
    • One thing that distinguishes it from other hospitals is the fact that it's Allen Hospital in Waterloo, Iowa rather than, say, Wirth Osteopathic Hospital in Oakland City, Indiana. Kurt Weber 01:50, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment Is notability the chief criteria for keeping articles on Wikipedia, or are we here to voice our comments based on the merit of the subject? If Wikipedia is simply a place to record the notable, then does that make Wikipedia nothing more than a validation of popularity? If so, then the value of Wikipedia is greatly deminished and I for one hope not. Stu 02:11, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
    • Notability isn't the chief criterion; it's not officially a criterion at all, although it has been a de facto criterion AFAIK since Wikipedia began, certainly for the last two years. Notability is not at all the same thing as popularity. Notability is "The state or quality of being eminent or worthy of notice." Popularity is "The quality or state of being popular, especially the state of being widely admired, accepted, or sought after." In the United States, Osama bin Laden is not popular, but is very notable. The composer Arnold Schoenberg is also unpopular but notable. It is possible to establish somewhat objective guidelines for what constitutes notability within a given field, and this has been done for music, biographies, and some others. There are however many fields where Wikipedians are unable to agree on such criteria, and on these, articles must be decided on a case-by-case basis and the decisions can be contentious in the case of borderline articles. Dpbsmith (talk) 02:39, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep. Although I do not work in the medical industry, 250 open heart procedures per year sounds notable. Yamaguchi先生 03:31, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep. Weak articles or stubs are not reasons to delete an encylopedic article. Vegaswikian 06:09, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep. Hospitals are at least much more notable than schools (which, for better or worse are always kept now). Sjakkalle (Check!) 07:36, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
    • Schools get deleted all the time, e.g. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bethel Church Sunday School. Dpbsmith (talk) 11:01, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
      • That article was about a sunday school, that is, a church program, and not a school in the traditional sense. Sjakkalle (Check!) 11:29, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
      • I wouldn't say that hospitals are as notable as schools except for very large hospitals in metropolitan areas (I don't think schools should have articles either, though). My hometown of 45,000 has 3 hospitals, but only one high school. -- Kjkolb 21:01, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete hospitals unless they (A) play a pivotal role in the development of modern or historical hospital care, or (B) are independently notable as a research institution. This article does not make such assertions. flowersofnight 14:14, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Merge with any geographical area that this would best fit into. Not enough notability established for an article yet. Karmafist 16:39, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Merge to Iowa Health System, and can the arguments which go "If we're going to keep articles about (insert drek here), then we should also keep articles about (insert additional drek here)." That's just an argument to descend to a dark and ugly morass. Please let's not go the insane route we've gone with school articles! Denni☯ 03:30, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep. There is enough information in the article for me to draw the conclusion that this hospital merits an article, but I don't agree that every private medical facility that is labeled a "hospital" necessarily deserves an article. -- DS1953 talk 05:27, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete lacks global importance --redstucco 09:55, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
  • delete What person would need to know more about the historical relevance of this *particular* hospital and would gain insight into the larger topic by reading about this particular example? It's not notable. If X open heart proceedures a year is notable then, it deserves to be explained why that number is notable. That explanation would then belong on a page discussing open heart surgeries, not on pages for every hospital on the planet which meets this criterion. The hospital is not notable in the encyclopedic sense, no one is voting the hospital itself off the island. Pete.Hurd 20:16, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
    • I would like to be able to know more about the history and role of this particular hospital. Kappa 01:35, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
      • (1) few other users are likely to have this need, (2)you can't find that out from the information that is here, and (3)if the history of other institution-stubs is evidence, you're not likely going to be able to in the future. I'm also questioning if you'd really like to know more about this specific hospital, or if you'd like to know more in theory about hospitals in general. Can you clarify your position? Denni☯ 04:21, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.