Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Allegations of Jordanian apartheid

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. —Kurykh 01:06, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Allegations of Jordanian apartheid

Allegations of Jordanian apartheid (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

Virtually none of the article's ten sources mention anything about allegations of Jordanian apartheid. In only one does the word "apartheid" even appear, and it's a blogpost by Alan Dershowitz. Most of the articles in the metastasizing pseudo-series "Allegations of apartheid" are shabby, but this one is almost insolent in its frivolousness. All were created in violation of WP:POINT by editors who have tried unsuccessfully to delete Allegations of Israeli Apartheid, a copiously sourced article which covers a very prominent, very public, very contentious, and wide-ranging international debate among scholars, journalists, public figures, Nobel laureates, and so on. The tactic in creating these "sister" articles is to google around for random quotes using the word "apartheid" in primary sources in a variety of contexts, and cobble them together into desultory pieces of investigative journalism/original research, sorted by country. Allegations of Jordanian apartheid, intriguingly, takes the opposite approach. Its creator has merely gathered a dozen or so sources – seemingly at random – on Jordanian human-rights issues, none of which ever mentions apartheid, or South Africa, or anything of the sort, at all. These things are presumably reminiscent of apartheid to the Wikipedian who gathered them, so he's stapled them together with the aforementioned blog-post to make this ridiculous article. Delete with extreme prejudice. G-Dett 00:05, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

  • Delete Like many other "Allegations of ..." works, this article has been created for transparently partisan ends relating to the ongoing saga of Allegations of Israeli Apartheid. I can only imagine that the ultimate purpose of this farcial display is to eventually nominate all of the "allegations of apartheid" articles -- including the encyclopedic and properly-sourced Allegations of Israeli Apartheid -- for deletion in one fell swoop, in the hope that Wikipedians will be so tired of this nonsense as to delete everything without differentiation. CJCurrie 00:53, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete and merge the two relevant quotes into Allegations of apartheid#Jordan. The sources provided do not establish notability of any allegations, nor demonstrate any ongoing, notable debate around the allegations of apartheid in Jordan. However, please refrain from failing to assume good faith of fellow editors. This should be about content, not people.--Cerejota 01:10, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment Not saying Jordan has a stellar human rights record, but I think a critical distinction here is that Palestinian and Iraqi refugees in Jordan are non-citizens, whereas Palestinians in Israel are semi-citizens. I think, therefore, this falls outside of the definition of apartheid. ~ Infrangible 01:37, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
Not exactly. Technically palestinians are not technically citizens of Israel. Anyway, by either definition, both fall out of the definition of apartheid (see Crime of apartheid), apartheid is "committed in the context of an institutionalised regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group or groups and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime." By that definition, Jordan could fall under the definition of apartheid, but so could just about every other country in the world. That is all allegations.--SefringleTalk 06:09, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom, CJCurrie, and Cerejota. Also, violates WP:SOAP. Bearian 02:02, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep article is well sourced, and seems to establish some notabilty. Nomination, rather than creation, seems to be WP:POINT; point being to accuse User:Urthogie of bad faith. Reguardless of what you think of the sourcing of the Allegations of Israeli apartheid, it is a POV fork, like all allegations of apartheid articles are. It is even more POV to allow the allegation on some articles but not others. This seems like an attempt to delete all allegations of apartheid articles except the Israel one, as nomination focuses on a WP:POINT accusation, rather than the merits of the article. Besides, if you look at the article history, it wasn't even created by User:Urthogie.--SefringleTalk 05:56, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
    • Reply I disagree, there are two relevant quotes by partisan sources. The rest is orginal research. There is no notable debate or allegation of apartheid with regards to Jordan that warrants a page of its own. The sources belong in Allegations of apartheid.--Cerejota 12:07, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
Since this nomination, there are now four notable reliable sources which prove the allegation is notable, all of which use the term, proof that there is probably more to come. Articles are not built in a day, and this article is all of two days old. It is pretty well sourced, includes alternative opinions, and it apparently is growing, proving it is notable.--SefringleTalk 05:02, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
This is not proof of notability. Notability requires, in this case, that there be a debate. There is no response from any notable pro-Jordanian commentator or from the Jordanian State regarding these allegations. The few sources available perfectly fit Allegations of apartheid, and should remain there until the allegations against jordan truly become enough to justify one page. I also note that you have stated elsewhere your support to delete this page if Allegations of Israeli apartheid is deleted. I think your contribution is disingenuous.--Cerejota 04:35, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
    • Reply Sefringle, you noticed about half-way through writing your post that Urthogie didn't create the article (he hasn't even edited it if I remember correctly), so why did you leave in your hypothesis that I filed this nomination as a POINT-attack against him? Also, please bear in mind that our job is not to decide where to "allow the allegation" of apartheid; our job is to decide if there's a vigorous, notable debate or discussion about alleged similarities between Jordan and South Africa. Judging by the sources for this article, there is not.--G-Dett 13:46, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
why did you leave in your hypothesis that I filed this nomination as a POINT-attack against him? Because of your nomination comments. "All were created in violation of WP:POINT by editors who have tried unsuccessfully to delete Allegations of Israeli Apartheid" Basicly implies that every zionist supporter who creates an allegations of X apartheid" article is doing so out of WP:POINT. Maybe you aren't talking about Urthogie by himself per se, but you are using general terms to imply that all allegations of apartheid articles created by any supporter of Zionism was done to make a point and is done in bad faith. Clearly that is a bad nomination.
our job is to decide if there's a vigorous, notable debate or discussion about alleged similarities between Jordan and South Africa. exactly. And only one percent of your nomination focused on this issue. The vast majority of your nomination was an accusation of WP:POINT.--SefringleTalk 03:32, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep Allegations are notable if they are well sourced and written in an NPOV manner. Treatment of Palestinians throughout many Arab countries such as Jordan, Lebanon and even Kuwait can be considered as apartheid because they have been systematically kept out of the general society for over 50 years in ghettos without any basic human rights is a classic case of apartheid. A 4th generation Palestinian in Lebanon still has no access to proper schools, work, the tax system and is kept out like a Pariah . Even non citizens have basic human rights. Not even an illegal alien in the US is treated this way , they have access to due process. Taprobanus 12:47, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Treatment of Palestinians in Jordan is deplorable, and it's even worse in Lebanon and elsewhere in the Arab world. Articles that really zero in on the subject would be a terrific addition to Wikipedia, and if you'd like to write them I will help you. That subject, however, has not been looked at through the historical lens of South African apartheid by any reliable sources, nor is there any discernible public debate or discourse about alleged similarities thereof. This article begins with that utterly spurious framework because its goal is not to address the situation of Palestinians in Jordan, but rather to create a WP:POINT bargaining chip with which to secure the deletion of Allegations of Israeli apartheid, which some editors object to on ideological grounds. This is an edit war by proxy, in other words, and this breezily incompetent and bad-faith article shows real contempt on the part of the authors for the serious moral and political topic you rightly raise. If you were to suggest heavily revising this content and "moving" it to Palestinian refugees in Jordan or something of the sort, I would certainly support that.--G-Dett 13:20, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete like the other "allegations of Apartheid": outrageous, controversial, lacking critical distance, and obviously WP:POINT. Rama 13:58, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom and Cerejota. Cannot see any reliable sources which confirm allegations of apartheid and it all appears to be original research based on Jordan's human rights record. → AA (talk • contribs) — 14:06, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep, per rationale provided on other allegations. Merge. Not enough meat to it.--Urthogie 14:31, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Specifically?--G-Dett 14:47, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete and merge into Human rights in Jordan and remove original research claim in header, most of the article does not back up the apartheid claim but is about general human rights, Encyclopedias are supposed to document facts not invent new jingoisms that aren't backed up by any reliable sources, the term Allegations of Jordanian apartheid was invented on wikipedia, this is worse than the other allegation articles because no one of notability, including the Israeli government has accused the Jordanians of apartheid, which puzzles me as to why the article is labeled apartheid Bleh999 16:25, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete As mentioned in the other AFD, apartheid implies official stance. If that was the case, these wouldnt be allegations Corpx 02:12, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment: I think this nomination should be closed, so that someone can be free to nominate the article again without all of the nastiness, anger and personal attacks contained in this nomination. I don't think we ought to be encouraging this sort of thing. 6SJ7 03:20, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
  • 6SJ7, the creator of this article has been on WP for about a year. He knows what he's doing and he'll survive a few ironies at his expense. This article is far and away the least competent of that collective con job and bumbling ensemble piece we call the "Allegations of apartheid" series, which is saying something. What you mistake for anger is connoisseurial pleasure. Surely I'm allowed to whistle while I work, especially when the work in question is mopping up deliberately spilled milk.--G-Dett 20:08, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep - The article is a disjointed and covers a great deal of ground without expanding each area; however, it is worthwhile and is sourced for the institutionalized discrimination or apartheid that exists. I am put off by the insistence to project the motivations of the editors to be a chit against the Israel article; it comes off as highly POV, please desist from doing so. Also, any article that begins with "Allegation" should be changed immediately. There are either sources that support the position or there are not; to state it in this manner is also POV. --Storm Rider (talk) 04:31, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
  • What sources accuse Jordan of apartheid? Out of all of the sources there is one article by Alan Dershowitz that mentions the book by Jimmy Carter and Jordan not allowing Jews to own land, but even he doesn't directly accuse Jordan of apartheid. I don't think one editorial that is only remotely related to this subject should hold the entire article together. The title and unsourced intro are original research, the information about human rights in Jordan should go into Human rights in Jordan Bleh999 05:40, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
  • You vote "keep", but you say "any article that begins with "Allegation" should be changed immediately"; is that a Rename vote? Also, your assumptions of good faith honour you, but as another commenter puts it, "A sturdily built ship doesn't sink. A sturdily built ship chained to a chunk of concrete eight times its size does sink".--Victor falk 23:06, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete. The word "apartheid" has a precise meaning and a proper definition. This article : 1) talks about metaphorically apartheid and the title doesn't account that it's not real apartheid, 2) this comparison is solely done by the article's author (check the sources : they don't even compare Jordanian and apartheid, they are fakes sources!), doing here a clear WP:OR. All the sources appears to be randomly picked from a google search with the words "Jordan" and "apartheid", used even if the words aren't use in the same phrase or paragraph in the source. (beside, that article's creation is part of a WP:POINT to have the specific article about Israel & apartheid deleted; see also Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Allegations of French apartheid , that's how I found this one). Apartheid only occurred in South Africa, that is. Benjamin.pineau 20:33, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Strong Delete as yet another in a long list of fabricated originally research-filled, point-making soapboxery. As pointed out above, it looks like a hastily-strung together collection of a google search of "Jordan" and "apartheid". At this rate, I can't wait til the Allegations of Federated States of Micronesian apartheid article gets created. Tarc 22:53, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
  • What?!? I thought the whole inner solar system was covered, and that Allegations of Martian apartheid was next in the pipeline!
  • Strong Keep Nominator's comment says a lot: "All were created in violation of WP:POINT by editors who have tried unsuccessfully to delete Allegations of Israeli Apartheid, a copiously sourced article which covers a very prominent, very public, very contentious, and wide-ranging international debate among scholars, journalists, public figures, Nobel laureates, and so on." I'm not saying anti-Zionism or pro-Zionism at work here, but published articles suggesting discrimination anywhere are notable. Mandsford 00:42, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
So what sources directly accuse Jordan of apartheid, funny that even the Israeli government has not made such a claim, the term Jordanian apartheid was invented on wikipedia Bleh999 06:14, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
Completely true, althougt there is notable use of the analogy, but not enough to justify its own page. That content belongs merged into Allegations of apartheid.--Cerejota 10:30, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
"Notable use" in this case refers to one sentence in a book by Benjamin Netanyahu, and one sentence in a blog post by Alan Dershowitz. Cerejota, with regards to notability you need to review the distinction between primary sources and secondary sources.--G-Dett 15:03, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
This is why if the result of this AfD is keep or no consensus I will re-state my merge proposal. The sources are too little to justify a page on its own, but are notable enough. Alan Dershowitz posted in a blog, but in this case it is a primary source: he was not reporting what someone else said, but what he said. And do we really have to debate his notability?--Cerejota 15:06, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Thanks for pointing that out. Dershowitz does not mention the word "apartheid" even once in the "Case Against Jordan"[1].--Victor falk 17:01, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
This is not used as a source in the article anymore.--Cerejota 00:41, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
You're still not getting it. Primary sources are less desirable on WP, and they do not in themselves establish notability except in rare circumstances. From WP:N:

"Sources," defined on Wikipedia as secondary sources, provide the most objective evidence of notability.

And from WP:NOR:

Although most articles should rely predominantly on secondary sources, there are rare occasions when they may rely on primary sources. An article or section of an article that relies on a primary source should (1) only make descriptive claims, the accuracy of which is easily verifiable by any reasonable, educated person without specialist knowledge, and (2) make no analytic, synthetic, interpretive, explanatory, or evaluative claims. Contributors drawing on primary sources should be careful to comply with both conditions.

--G-Dett 16:56, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
Less desirable doesn't mean it cannot be used. It just means lesser quality. I will repeat myself: Exploding whale is both one of the oldest articles in wikipedia, and a featured article, which means there is consensus that this is a good article. However, it is almost entirely made up of primary sources, its notability is to a large extent self-referential, and would be WP:OR under your rather strict and strange criteria for OR. Ultimately, you are just the twisted mirror image of the WP:POINT kiddies and possible meatpuppets (and some not-so-kiddies, unfortunately): you just want Allegations of Israeli apartheid to be the sole article, instead of looking at each instance of sourced material on its own. While I agree in this instance with a delete and merge, I do so because while notable, the material doesn't constitute enough for a separate article and we have a page for such cases, Allegations of apartheid.
I repudiate your double-standard: There is exactly one secondary source in Allegations of Israeli apartheid, Adam and Moodley, and in large part they are both notable precisely because of their book. However, Benjamin Netanyahu is an obvious notable previous to his use of the analogy. You want to delete content of encyclopedic value just because WP:IDONTLIKEIT. --Cerejota 00:41, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
There's no double standard, Cerejota. Just the single standard: articles must have notable subjects; the notability of their subjects must be verifiable through secondary sources. Your comment betrays an enduring confusion about primary sources vs. secondary sources. Jimmy Carter's book is a primary source because it alleges apartheid. The hundreds of op-ed comments and commentaries on how Jimmy used "the A-word," and the hundreds of news pieces on how Jewish leaders were castigating Jimmy, and how the longtime board members of the Carter center were resigning because of the title of his book, and so on, were secondary sources. The Israel article's 115 cites is chock-a-block with secondary sources, and I can add 400 more by lunchtime if you like. I can't quite believe you're still talking about exploding whale, but for what it's worth that article also has many secondary sources, and I can't understand why you think that it doesn't.--G-Dett 14:21, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.