Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alfonsyna Miaczynska

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This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion of the article below. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record.
The result of the debate was keep. Mindspillage (spill yours?) 06:19, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Alfonsyna Miaczynska, Jadwiga Dzieduszycka, Witold Leon Czartoryski

Article does not establish notability. All of those red links in the infobox are also scary. Are we planning on having articles on all of the non-notable children of every non-notable Polish nobleman and -woman who ever lived? Witkacy (talk · contribs) is creating tons of these. RickK 06:23, May 14, 2005 (UTC)

Oppose. How do you know who of them is notable and who is not? Is Mr. Spock more important that someone who was a Prince? --Witkacy 07:32, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

Comment. Witkacy, as I tried to suggest on your talk page, the issue is about what the article itself states. If you feel that a person is notable enough to deserve an article, go ahead and write the article, but please include information in the article about why that person is notable, as well as providing references for your research. Simply writing that a person was notable, with no way for other editors to verify it, is less that helpful. It seems you're doing a lot of good work to improve Wikipedia's coverage of Poland, and we would like to help you make your work on Wikipedia even better. EvilPhoenix
I don't know if they're notable or not, that's why I said Article does not establish notability. But is every single child of every single Polish noble notable? It's up to you, as the writer, to tell us if they're notable, and what makes them so. Just having a title isn't enough. Note that I didn't vfd Jan Franciszek Czartoryski, because he's a saint. RickK 07:54, May 14, 2005 (UTC)
What makes (for an example) Prince Witold Leon Czartoryski notable is: He was member of the Czartoryski family, he was grand-grandson of Adam Kazimierz Czartoryski, grandson of Konstanty Adam Czartoryski, father of Jan Franciszek Czartoryski, he was a political activist, member of the Sejm, member of the House of Lords, General Commissar of Regency of Polish Kingdom, there is a short entry about him in the PWN (Polish) Encyclopedia. He is mentioned at:

[1], [2], [3]

Countess Jadwiga Dzieduszycka was the daughter of Count Wlodzimierz Dzieduszycki and wife of Prince Witold Leon Czartoryski. The connections between Polish artistocratic families (and to other european artistocratic families) are also interesting. In my opinion more important than the information who was Astro Boy ;) --Witkacy 16:34, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

Please take a look on that family line of the Czartoryski family (from 1674 until today):

--Witkacy 18:18, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

  • Duck. It looks like user is interested in covering Polish geneaology pretty heavily. I left a comment on user's talk page asking for more information on notability in articles. User has been enthusiastically editing away on all things Polish, so let's hope that the user is just really fond of Poland, and contributing useful things, but maybe needs encouragement to focus on notability for articles user is adding (which is a lot of articles). Tentative Keep. EvilPhoenix
  • Keep. Verifiable and NPOV. Hope that someone expands them someday. DoubleBlue (Talk) 14:31, 14 May 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep, "Jadwiga Dzieduszycka" is more notable than Zubat. Expand. ✏ OvenFresh² 16:18, 14 May 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment - articles need to establish notability. At present, these do not. However, Czartoryski at least appears to be notable due to position in government. I've attempted to put that into his article, but I'm not really sure I understand the politics of post-WW1 Poland all that well. -- Jonel 17:43, 14 May 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep. Witold Leon Czartoryski certainly looks notable. IMO there's some room for merging some articles in Category:Czartoryski, for example maybe Princes Czartoryski Foundation could redirect to Czartoryski Museum, and I'd guess some of the people could be redirected to the more notable figures to whom they are related. But even then the redirects should probably stay, so it's not a VfD matter. Wholesale deletion of good content by a good contributor is certainly not the way to go. Andrewa 17:44, 14 May 2005 (UTC)
    • What makes an article about some saint's grandmother "good content"? Just because it's veifiable? Then I can have articles on every one of my ancestors that are verifiable by reference to genealogy pages. RickK 19:54, May 14, 2005 (UTC)
      • Comment: Um, I really don't see the relevance of the first question, and it seems to presuppose that an article about a saint's grandmother would ipso facto be good content, which is I think nonsense. The second question can be answered {after Ronald Reagan) in one word or two; The two word answer is Hell, no. The conclusion is irrelevant, by false antecedent. I think what you're trying to say is that you disagree with me (and a few others) that this is good content. I think everyone knew that already. No change of vote. Andrewa 12:59, 15 May 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep Witold Leon Czartoryski, delete the other two. Nobility does not automatically imply notability. Martg76 20:23, 14 May 2005 (UTC)
  • The same as Martg76 just above. Pavel Vozenilek 20:26, 14 May 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep, these are real people who played some real role in history in the real world, and real and accurate information is being provided -- I agree that they're more important than Mr. Spock's grand-nephews. Ben-w 23:45, 14 May 2005 (UTC)
  • To formalize my position, I say that I agree with Martg76. Witold Leon Czartoryski is the only one of the three that is sufficiently notable. The other two have no better claim, as the articles stand so far, than that they are related to someone. Those two should be deleted. They're certainly far less notable than the first anime (Astro Boy) or someone who appeared on the cover of TV Guide's "50 Greatest Characters Ever", has an asteroid named after him, and whose name, used by itself, nearly always refers to the fictional character rather than the individually quite notable real person who shares it (Mr. Spock - asteroid is 2309 Mr. Spock, real person is Benjamin Spock). Obviously there's a lot of room below those articles and the notability bar, but the Dzieduszycka and Miaczynska articles currently do not establish themselves as above that bar. -- Jonel 01:49, 15 May 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep. Countess, Countess, Prince. That's enough. --Unfocused 04:47, 15 May 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep. Members of Polish aristocracy at senior level. We would keep articles on British aristocrats of similar rank for the same period. Capitalistroadster 10:15, 15 May 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep. Aristocrats are exceptions to the general rule that a bio is notable because of what the subject did rather than who the subject is. Aristocracy are inherently notable, despite the fact that they often lack notable accomplishments. Quale 19:13, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete I politely disagree with the above statement. →Iñgōlemo← talk 03:19, 2005 May 19 (UTC)
  • Keep as per Capitalistroadster. —Markaci 2005-05-21 T 17:24 Z
This page is now preserved as an archive of the debate and, like some other VfD subpages, is no longer 'live'. Subsequent comments on the issue, the deletion, or the decision-making process should be placed on the relevant 'live' pages. Please do not edit this page.