Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Albanian calendar

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete At present there appears to be insufficient reliable sourcing. JoshuaZ 23:03, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Albanian calendar

Albanian calendar (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

Really not sure what to say about this one... if it is accurate, it's so badly written it's hard to tell, and there's no English language sources. I know English language sources aren't compulsory, but still... the article really doesn't feel right. SamBC(talk) 00:34, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

  • Weak delete. It appears there is (or was) an Albanian calendar of the type described.[1][2] However this article fails WP:V and WP:RS. Possibly userfy until verified? Dbromage [Talk] 00:42, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Don't know English sources aren't compulsory, but reliable sources are; the only source currently cited in the article seems to be the personal website of some professor of music [3]. Main question here is whether the Albanians actually had their own calendar. Gbooks search on "Albanian calendar" [4] doesn't help. [5] Google Scholar search might be of more help. [6] cab 00:54, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Albania-related deletions. cab 00:54, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep. Setting my Albanian heritage aside :), I think the article has potential. I can look for some english refs. J-stan TalkContribs 01:40, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
I added an english ref. Is this enough to work with for now? Kiss me, I'm Albanian! J-stan TalkContribs 01:46, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment this one needs expert attention. for one thing, I don;'t think the new ref is using "Albanian" in the modern sense -- the article using the term in quotes. This is very specialized philology & I have no confidence that the references support the article content. DGG (talk) 03:41, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete unless better sourcing is provided. While the Albanian-language reference seems to indicate there's something to the topic (there's a list of further references cited there), right now the article doesn't even state when and where and by whom that calender was supposedly employed. This makes it dangerously close to even a speedy (CSD A1). As for the English-language source, I share the doubt voiced by DGG; from the context this seems to be talking about Caucasian Albania rather than Albania proper. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:27, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep It's pretty clear that this is a legitimate topic. The weakness of the article is a sad reflection of Wikipedia's systemic bias. Abberley2 15:54, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment: All but one (the [7] "Encyclopedia of Albanian popular music") of the web hits on google books and google scholar talk either about the Caucasian Albanians (an entirely different people unrelated to the modern Albanians), or just use "Albanian calendar" in the sense of "the set of days of celebration or remembrance relevant to Albanians", i.e. not in the sense of a separate calendaric system. And in the case of that one page by Vasil Tole, it's not clear to me either to what extent he is really describing an independent calendaric system, or rather just a set of folkloristic traditions related to days and seasons in the normal calendar. Besides, why would a work about popular music be describing a calendaric system in the first place, and be a reliable source for it? Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:28, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep It has an Albanian language source, and as with any other calendar system, it's worth including in an encylopedia. I don't know if there's the facility on the internet for translating an Albanian article, but I think it's worth trying. Mandsford 22:57, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment: but is what that page described really a calendar system in the first place? I'd recommend holding back with keep votes until we've verified what that page is actually saying. Fut.Perf. ☼ 23:03, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
      • What's described is certainly a calendar system - different way of defining moths, etc etc, and presumably years, if their new year corresponded early May in either the Gregorian or Julian calendars. A year being the same length as the Julian or Gregorian year is certainly not something that stops it being a separate calendar system. Now, whether it's notable and verifiable, and accurately represented, is another matter. SamBC(talk) 23:13, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
        • What's described in the article is certainly a calendar system, sure -- but is that also what is described in the (alleged) source? I cannot find anything there, for instance, that looks similar to a claim about 45-day long months. What that page seems to be talking about is just the Albanian names of the weekdays (normal 7-day week) and what dates are conventionally considered beginnings and endings of seasons like summer and winter - but these dates themselves are evidently defined in terms of Christian saints' namedays, i.e. in terms of the conventional Christian calendar. Fut.Perf. ☼ 23:33, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
        • There's only a 'conventional Christian calendar' in terms of what days are holidays festivals etc. In the sense described in the article this is a calendar system comparable to the Julian and Gregorian calendars. But now I'm waffling. SamBC(talk) 23:39, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
          • By "conventional Christian calendar" I meant exactly the Gregorian and/or Julian calendars. Point is, you can't have Christian holidays without basing them on either of these. The source seems to say, for instance, that the main division of the seasons were the feast days of St George ("Shën Gjergj") and St Demetrius ("Shën Mitër"). Now, these are defined as being on 23 April and 26 October, in the Gregorian or Julian calendar, because that's when the church celebrates them. You can't have them on any other days, and you can't have them without your calendar being underlyingly the Gregorian or Julian one. Fut.Perf. ☼ 00:04, 14 August 2007 (UTC)


  • Keep. I checked the Albanian website referred to. The article should be kept, but should be revised a little. I may do it myself some other time.

P.S. Perhaps you need to remove the second link.--Getoar 09:50, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

    • Does it say anything about 45-day "months" and similar outlandish stuff? Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:06, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Update: The creator of the article has now added another "source" reference, pointing to a graphics that seems to support something like 45-day units. That graphics, complete with a nice decorative swastika in the middle, occurs together with an anonymous text on the web in an Albanian webforum here and on another webpage with the telling title "werwolf88" [8] and apparent fascist/neonazi/nationalist leanings. In both pages it seems to have been posted just a couple days ago. Not the most reliable of sources, I'd say. A fashionable nationalist meme of some sorts? Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:17, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.