Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Airfoil Public Relations

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Delete, fails notability. ChrisO 21:45, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Airfoil Public Relations

Airfoil Public Relations (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

This company doesn't seem notable enough; see WP:CORP. NawlinWiki 16:22, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Delete. Completely non-notable IMHO. aJCfreak yAk 16:54, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

• Weak Keep You need to explain how it is not notable (that word can get old after awhile) if you're going to nominate a page for deletion. That being said, this page does appear to be a vanity page for a company but the company may be notable considering it grossed $6 million dollars in 2006 and has two branches; one in Detroit and one on the West coast. The "notable" Starbucks uses them as a public relations firm for several of their central U.S. branches. ^{Press Release}. There are also over 20k results on Google for this company. The article needs tweaking more than deletion. --David Andreas 17:08, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
• Delete 54 employees is not notable. $6 million revenue is not notable. Starbucks using them for only "a few branches" is not notable. DGG 18:36, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

• Comment Notability can be very subjective. What is considered a notable revenue? --David Andreas 18:58, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

• Comment Per the references, in the PR industry in the US, $6 million puts you in the top 50 for independent agencies (as opposed to divisions of big ad/marketing agencies). See: 2006 rankings. I'd argue that notability needs to be determined within the context of the industry in which the subject does business, as a "notable" company in a heavily fragmented industry may be smaller than a non-notable company in a consolidated industry with a few large companies and some small bottom-feeders (for instance, the #50 law firm in the US has $250 million in billings and a Wikipedia entry: Proskauer Rose). Whether "top 50" in any national industry is notable enough for a stub (or "top 10" in a specialized category, such as technology PR firms), I think so, but I leave for the community to decide. (I know that "notability" is a bit of a moving target in many debates here...) Jmozena 20:37, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

• Delete. The "notable" Starbucks uses the company I work for to manufacture kitchen furnishings almost to exclusivity in the western US, but I'd not dream of making an article for it. Notability must be earned independently, not as a "contractor of someone else notable". There is no evidence of independent notability for this company. Arkyan • ^(talk) 19:27, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

• Response I think there's a difference between a furnishings manufacturer and a public relations firm, given that a PR firm is actually speaking to audiences on behalf of the "someone else notable" and is intrinsically associated with that other, more-notable organization or company far more so than, say, a furnishings company or some other supplier of materials or internal services. Your furnishings company sells to its customers, it doesn't represent them. There's a reason that within the industry, agency rankings or listings virtually always include agency clients. Jmozena 20:37, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

• The "differences" you cite seem utterly meaningless, perhaps pointless, and seemingly plucked out of thin air in that they don't in any way, shape, or form actual issues with the analogy given. The main point -- notability isn't purely by association -- still stands, regardless of the handwaving. --Calton | Talk 02:56, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

• Delete. Not even close, and man, some of the claims are truly straining for effect. --Calton | Talk 20:32, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
• Keep I'm the original author. While I'm a former employee of the company, I haven't been associated with them for almost five years and I've got no stake in their success or failure, so this isn't wikiadvertising by the subject. I am familiar with WP:CORP, and in my estimation, the policy "A company, corporation, organization, team, religion, group, product, or service is notable if it has been the subject of secondary sources" is met by such sources as the being named a "small business of the year" in a major metropolitan area by that area's primary business publication, as well as the industry-specific recognitions such as the top-50 independent PR firms and top-10 technology PR firms listings from O'Dwyers, which is a publication of record in the PR industry. I specifically didn't include a client list as I thought that would look too much like advertising, but it does include clients such as Microsoft's Automotive Business Unit, eBay Motors, Best Buy's B2B business and PayPal, among other "notable" companies. Also, before posting, I did a WP:CORP sanity check and found that Airfoil's direct competitors tend to have Wikipedia entries, such as Text 100 and Kaplow. Jmozena 20:37, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

• 1) If you draw the boundary lines finely enough, you can claim pretty much any kind of superlative, but even given that the claims are extremely weak : Top 50? Among "independent" agencies? 2) As for the direct competitors: WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS. If their presence bothers you, give me the list and I'll see what I can do. --Calton | Talk 02:56, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of California-related deletions. -- John Vandenberg 16:14, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
• Comment I would accept notability based on who the clients are in some cases. i think the major PR firm that handles the bulk of a large company's business might well be notable, just as if they have a major coffee importer, they might be too, both being important segments of their business. But, as Carlton says, this does not apply to subdivisions. Best marathon runner in the country is notable, best in the town is not, best one in the country with red hair is not. DGG 05:05, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
• Delete Calton is right and this fails WP:CORP. Eusebeus 18:14, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.