Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Aingeljã

This page is an archive of the proposed deletion of the article below. Further comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or on a Votes for Undeletion nomination). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was delete. Tally: Keep: Assdl, Firespeaker, IJzeren Jan, Elemtilas, BenctPhilipJonsson, Oldak Quill, SamuelRiv. Delete: Ishwar, Angr, Dhasenan, JamesBurns, Dewrad, Mikkalai, Pne, Wile E. Heresiarch, Prosfilaes, Mustafaa, Trilobite, Muke Tever, Jim Henry, Almafeta. Not counting users with fewer than 100 edits, there are 2 keep and 12 delete. Wile E. Heresiarch 15:38, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Aingeljã

• Delete. This article is about a conlang. I believe that it is not notable for inclusion in Wikipedia. – ishwar  (speak) 17:30, 2005 July 22 (UTC)
• Delete, nonnotable conlang. --Angr/_{tɔk tə mi} 18:43, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
• Delete nn conlang. JamesBurns 04:33, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
• Keep, there are other articles about "not so notable" conlangs in Wikipedia. Examples: Breathanach, Brithenig, DiLingo, Enochian, Fyksland, Talossan language, Verdurian language, Wenedyk. If you delete this article, it'll be unfair. Assdl 12:45, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia is supposed to be an encyclopedia and not an art gallery. The other articles on conlangs may not be appropriate either. I am not singling you out for any reason — I merely noticed that you added Aingeljã numbers to the numbers article. Maybe there is a conlang wiki somewhere where you can display your art. Thank you. – ishwar  (speak) 15:07, 2005 July 23 (UTC)

• Delete. While I am a conlanger and support efforts to make conlanging more widely known, Wikipedia is not the place for this content. Instead, individual conlangs should be documented in personal sites and linked to from Wikipedia. (I also assert that articles such as The Scream should be combined with the articles related to their creators, unless the artist in question is sufficiently prolific to make it difficult to find information in that format.)

I think The Scream is a prime example of why we shouldn't combine them with the author; you don't need to know who painted The Scream to be familiar with the painting, and there are many reinterpretations of the painting that stand independent of the original artist. You can be interested in The Scream without caring about Edward Munch. --Prosfilaes 21:53, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

• Delete. While this is a nice conlang, it's also non-notable. Dewrad 16:50, July 23, 2005 (UTC)
• Delete. Nonnotable. mikka (t) 18:21, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
• Keep - I think that if someone would like information on a conlang, there's no reason Wikipedia shouldn't be a place to start. -Firespeaker 18:24, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
• Delete. Not particularly notable, even as conlangs go. -- pne 18:59, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
• Delete: vanity, advert. Wile E. Heresiarch 19:56, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
• Delete. Not notable. --Prosfilaes 20:58, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
• Keep. Aingeljã is an excellent conlang with an excellent web presence. I dó think, however, that Wikipedia is not the place to accomodate its entire grammar. IMO the article should be a short description of the language, not an outline of its grammar. But all in all, I don't think a VfD is warranted on that base. --IJzeren Jan 23:13, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

I still think that the article is OK here, as it only shows a summary of the summary of the summary of the Grammar of Aingeljã. Anyone who finds it interesting can learn more at the official website. However, in order to guarantee that it isn't deleted, I can rewrite the contents of the article, if the majority of Wikipedians votes so. But I think that, as far as this conlang exists today and anybody can study it or read about it somewhere else, there's no reason to delete it here. I'm an enthusiastic Wikipedian user and I'd be completely disappointed with Wikipedia if this article, and those about other artistic conlangs, were deleted. Don't get confused about an auxilanguage like Esperanto, which tries to help the communication between people, and an artlang, which is a personal work of art, modest and humble after all. Please keep the article. Assdl 14:50, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

• Delete. As a conlanger, and much as I would like to make public the art of conlanging to the greatest extent possible, I really don't see the need for grammatical treatises and descriptions of individual conlangs here on the Wikipedia. There is already a good Wikipedia article, Artistic language, which should serve as a central locus for this particular art form. Though I disagree with the terminology "professional" v. "amateur" (I really don't think Syldavian counts as a professional conlang, as it's merely part of a corpus of literature), there is quite a long list of conlangs there. I think it vèry meet and right for conlangers to link to their own pages or to some other conlang oriented source, if they wish to do so. I wouldn't create a Wikipedia article for any of my conlangs, and if I found one, I'ld delete it for the reasons stated. -- Specific to the query below, "I really don't understand why you don't like my article about Aingeljã" I don't think the problem has to do with style or contents of the article itself. The problem is that the Wikipedia isn't the appropriate location for the article. A conlang related Wiki would be more appropriate, and that article could easily by linked to from Artistic language. Elemtilas

As pieces of art, they deserve articles in the same situation as any other pieces of art. There's no reason to not include an article just because it's a conlang. --Prosfilaes 21:53, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

I'm certainly not against this in principle. My position isn't really that this conlang or that does not deserve an article, the question is really whether it warrants an article. Wikipedia describes itself as striving to offer the internet public what they could otherwise get in a paper encyclopedia but is also kept up to the minute. Generally speaking, authoritative encyclopedias don't cover fictional worlds and similar works of art (unless they are famous). It can (and should) certainly cover the art of conlanging or conculturing; I think it's quite sufficient, given the purpose and scope of the project, to link to an external article about a conlang or conculture. Elemtilas

But that's a lousy description of what Wikipedia is. Wikipedia offers the public a depth and richness that no paper encyclopedia reaches. Krypto is an article that no general paper encyclopedia could afford to spend the paper on, but that doesn't mean it should be deleted. We have the space and the power to be far more comprehensive than a paper encyclopedia and we historically have been far more comprehensive than a paper encyclopedia. --Prosfilaes 21:21, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

Lousy as that description may be, it is condensed from the article Wikipedia! If we can and should afford to keep around articles on Captain Kirk or Krypto, then by all means we should keep articles on Aingelja and Wenedyk. Elemtilas

• Weak Keep -- having found and read the deletion policies, I have to reconsider my opinion. I still don't think most conlangs warrant individual articles, but they are works of art and as such should not necessarily be removed simply because some people don't get the artform or can't think of anything better than personal attacks against the artists that create languages. Anyone who wants to create such an article on a conlang should be responsible enough to really consider whether this piece of artwork warrants an individual and unique article of its own. If possible, this article should be merged with Constructed languages or Artistic languages. Elemtilas
• Delete, non-notable. - Mustafaa 11:07, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
• Comment, for all of you who have complained about the extension and detail of the text, I've reduced considerably the article. I hope you'll like it more now. But if you still think it's a perfect candidate to deletion, please let me know what else I should change in order to keep it in Wikipedia. Thanks. Assdl 14:14, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
• Delete. Nonnotable conlang. — Trilobite (Talk) 19:02, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
• Keep. BenctPhilipJonsson 19:21, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
  • User has no other edits but voting for keeping conlangs.mikka (t) 19:40, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

• Delete. Vanity page. :( —Muke Tever talk (la.wiktionary) 01:55, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
• Keep. Factually accurate. --Oldak Quill 16:10, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
• Keep. I read through the deletion policy in its entirety, and with the shortened article length I think there's no question that this has a place here. SamuelRiv 16:35, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
• Delete. A spiffy language with a well-done webpage, but not notable enough for Wikipedia: no evidence of its being influential on other conlangs, or having any speakers besides the author, or indeed any strong fans. (Maybe we should consider discussing and voting on a Wikipedia policy on criteria for inclusion of conlangs, rather than arguing about what constitutes notability every time...? Almafeta's conlang notability criteria might be a good starting point. Where would be the appropriate place to propose/discuss such a new policy?) --Jim Henry | Talk 04:37, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

IJzeren Jan suggested (on the Brithenig VfD page) that we start the discussion on Talk:Constructed language. As far as I know that is a good place to discuss the draft policy, but I'm not sure about how to go about proposing it as a policy and getting it voted on, once the people discussing the draft have some consensus on what policy to propose. Maybe we should copy Almafeta's conlang notability criteria to Talk:Constructed language/Conlang notability criteria or Talk:Constructed language/Conlang article inclusion policy draft, and then let people revise the draft and comment (in the main talk page) on the reasons for their proposed revisions, etc...? --Jim Henry | Talk 16:55, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

• Weak delete. Closest to notable is being 118 among top 100 languages in Langmaker. But dammit, I don't like this; the way the site is set up means it's a damn good work. A conlang policy would need to have some way of protecting pages like this one. Almafeta 05:27, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I agree. I do not entirely agree with all your notability criteria, but I have to admit that you made an excellent beginning. Furthermore, I agree: Aingeljã's website is one of the best of its kind, but what I find an even more astonishing achievement is the 116 p. long grammar, written in the language itself! Even when the objective criteria don't make a language notable, there should also be the possibility for an "I know when when I feel it" kind of exception. --IJzeren Jan 07:05, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] from talk page

copied from User talk:Ish_ishwar:

About Aingeljã

Hi, I really don't understand why you don't like my article about Aingeljã). This is an artistic personal constructed language, there is already a category in this Wikipedia about this kind of languages. This is a very short summary of the Grammar, which can be read thoroughly in the external links. In fact, I can't really understand why there are already articles about Breathanach, Brithenig, DiLingo, Enochian, Fyksland, Talossan language, Verdurian language, Wenedyk and many others, and there can't be an article about Aingelja.

I wait for instructions about what I should change in the article style, but I repeat that I can't understand your reaction.

Greetings,

Assdl 12:15, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

The issue is not article style, it is the notability of the topic. mikka (t) 18:21, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

See also Talk:Aingeljã.

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in an undeletion request). No further edits should be made to this page.