Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/African pope

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep per absence of delete preferences (non-admin closure). The possibility of merging/moving the article requires further discussion on the talkpage to reach consensus. Skomorokh 01:21, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] African pope

African pope (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) (delete) – (View log)

Doesn't really deserve its own article, like an essay, though might be an idea to merge a bit of the info into Pope Phoenix-wiki 11:58, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

  • Merge with Pope: Lacks sufficient context to warrant it's own article, would be better suited in the main article. Steve Crossin (talk) (anon talk) 12:07, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Convert into a disambiguation page. --Aqwis (talk – contributions) 12:12, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Merge with Pope per Steve Crossin.  Atyndall93 | talk  13:37, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Weak comment I agree with Aqwis that this probably needs to become a disambiguation page, since it appears to be trying to be describing several things related to both Pope and Africa: (1) A Roman Catholic pope born on the African continent; (2) The strong feeling that there will someday be a black African pope from the continent where Catholicism is having its fastest growth; and (3) A Greek Orthodox patriarch known as "Pope of Alexandria and all Africa". The case has been made that it's a legitimately ambiguous term Mandsford (talk) 14:44, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Merge relevant content to separate articles and redirect the title to Pope. The Eastern Orthodox don't use the title Pope. The Coptic Patriarch is called Pope, but I've never heard him called the (or an) African Pope. I don't think there's enough ambiguity here to require the dab page. -- BPMullins | Talk 14:56, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Africa-related deletion discussions. -- BelovedFreak 15:47, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Christianity-related deletion discussions. -- BelovedFreak 15:47, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Merge This article attempts to cook together too many things that have hardly any connection at all.--Aldux (talk) 19:37, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
    • After observing the useful edits made by Dhartung, I still can't help feeling the article mixes two elements with only weak ties: the popes from Roman Africa on one side and on the other the future prospects of a pope from Africa south of the Sahara. I think this last issue should be better merged with Roman Catholicism in Africa, also because the issue of where the next popes could come from has made in similar ways also for Asia, US and Latin America. Focusing on the African popes may risk give the issue an excessive space respect other options discussed even hotter. I must also add that my concerns are also due to the Pope article being already too big, with 77K.--Aldux (talk) 12:49, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Move to List of African popes (on the model of List of French popes and List of German popes. I've put the Coptic and Eastern Orthodox stuff into hatnotes, where it should be. A brief mention of mooted future popes from Africa should be acceptable if it is now a list of only Roman Catholic popes from Africa. --Dhartung | Talk 22:00, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
    • Nicely done, Dhartung. Your solution works very well. May I suggest a speedy close on that basis? -- BPMullins | Talk 01:30, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Move as Dhartung suggests. Speculation on what African cardinals might be elected Pope should however be remvoed. Peterkingiron (talk) 22:29, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Merge with Pope Obviously doesn't merit its own article, however, it is related to the article "Pope" sufficiently enough to warrant a merger.¤IrønCrøw¤ (Speak to Me) 04:34, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment I have rewritten the papabile section with references from a broad variety of sources including Desmond Tutu and an obscure Catholic scholar named Ratzinger. There has been much discussion in the form of not if, but when there will be another African pope, and it isn't just ethnic solidarity. --Dhartung | Talk 08:08, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Move (i.e. Keep and Rename) to List of African popes and papabile. It is encyclopedic but does not belong in the main article Pope. - Fayenatic (talk) 13:33, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Merge with Pope per above Yahel Guhan 02:03, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Still Merge with Pope none of the content needs to be cut away, the references now seem better, it just doesn't warrant it's own article (made in response to requested review of opinion)  Atyndall93 | talk  10:32, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep The additional editing (done by Dhartung) makes this a viable article. There were, indeed, three Popes born on the continent, and we live in an era where a black African pontiff is a something that is likely. A mere thirty years ago, there was a centuries old streak where all the Popes had been Italian. This is preferable to merging this back to "Pope", or creating a d.a.b. page. Mandsford (talk) 19:32, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Indeed. Pope is already 75K long. --Dhartung | Talk 00:16, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep, the possibility of an African pope has generated quite a bit of speculation in recent years, and Wikipedia should cover that comprehensively; on the other hand, the issue is not of anywhere near the significance necessary to warrant inclusion in the main article Pope, considering what an enormous and important topic that is. I think it works perfectly well as a standalone article, although merging into Roman Catholicism in Africa could be an acceptable alternative. I don't think the article should simply be a list. Everyking (talk) 05:39, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
The article could be titled as a list (see suggestions above) but retain its current content. A list article does not have to be a bare list; see WP:LIST. - Fayenatic (talk) 08:41, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Weak Keep - The subject is notable and interesting, but the presentation appears to be a bit wobbly. Perhaps the article's title can be changed to "Roman Catholic Popes of African Heritage"? The Coptic Church, which is based in North Africa, has its own pope. Of course, there is the dividing issue of "African" and "Sub-Saharan African," and it appears the latter is the subject of the article's speculation on a future black pope. Ecoleetage (talk) 12:08, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment I'm not sure what's wrong with African pope or List of African popes. It's the head article for Category:African popes (which will have no head article if this is deleted). It's the same format as List of French popes or List of German popes 9which are probably the only other lists outside of Italy to have more than one member, e.g. List of Polish popes would be just John Paul II). We have the hatnote to disambiguate with the Coptic and Eastern Orthodox "popes" (not generally known as such). If necessary we COULD move this to a more specific title, but then we're right back where we started, having this as a disambiguation page, which nobody seems to have voted for. As for the issue of what race any of these popes were or might in future be, that is something requiring a good deal of expansion, as there is no consensus. The Africocentric movement believes all three of the original African popes were black, of course, but historians disagree as to whether they were Roman, Berber, Punic (i.e. Semitic), or even barbarian, and Romans were notoriously agnostic about skin color to the point that it was rarely recorded. We just don't know. Certainly some of the current calls are about race, and it's more likely that a future African pope will be black just because of the limited presence of Catholicism in the non-black parts of Africa. But very few of the serious sources calling for an African pope actually discuss race. --Dhartung | Talk 19:33, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.