Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/A. H. M. Moniruzzaman

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result wasNo consensus noticeable leaning towards keep. Other stuff exists or doesnt is sufficient reason to delete an article. Gnangarra 06:59, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] A. H. M. Moniruzzaman

A. H. M. Moniruzzaman (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

Non notable diplomat's vanity biography, written possibly by the subject himself. No claim of notability other than job ... similar jobs are held by hundreds of other equally non-notable diplomats. See my vote for detailed deletion rationale. Ragib 10:43, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

  • Delete - Let me debunk the notability --
    • First claim: the person was a permanent secretary ... well, hundreds of other diplomats/bureaucrats have similar, non-notable posts in Bangladesh Civil Service (hundreds more are inducted into the service each year).
    • Nothing significant in his academic and teaching career (Dhaka University has at least 1000+ teachers).
    • Nothing significant either in his diplomatic career.
    • Also note that the article was written by an IP from Belgium ([1]), where the subject of this vanity page is said to be posted now. It seems that either the subject, or anyone associated with him wrote this vanity piece. --Ragib 10:49, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bangladesh-related deletions. -- → AA (talk) — 11:49, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Academics and educators-related deletions. -- → AA (talk) — 11:50, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Strong keep and rewrite . He is indeed, as claimed, "head of Bangladesh Mission in Brussels".as documented by "S.Exc.M. Abu Humayun

MONIRUZZAMAN Ambassadeur extraordinaire plénipotentiaire" in [2] which is the official list., as maintained by the Swiss Department of Foreign Affairs. Ambassadors of one country to another are notable, regardless of how bad and COI-ridden the article. Perhaps Ragib did not notice this when he said there was nothing notable in his diplomatic career, which is understandable since the link in the External References did not work as given. I've fixed it. DGG (talk) 23:59, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

    • I don't get this, how are ambassador's notable to be encylopedic? Do we have articles on possibly thousands of ambassadors of each country to other countries? An ambassador is just another bureaucrat, and not inherently notable. Do we even have other articles on ambassadors of other countries to Belgium? I don't think we'd have hundreds of similar articles. So, I don't buy your claim of notability of ambassadors, otherwise we'll have to list the millions of other government officials of the 100+ countries of the world. --Ragib 00:08, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
    • Your argument also fails to show how/why ambassadors (bureaucrats on non-permanent assignments) satisfy WP:BIO. To remind you of the criteria, a bio article's subject should be notable so that:
      • The person must have been the subject of published[ secondary sources that are reliable, intellectually independent, and independent of the subject.
      • If the depth of coverage is not substantial, then multiple independent sources may need to be cited to establish notability.
      • Trivial coverage of a subject by secondary sources may not be sufficient to establish notability
      • The person has been the subject of a credible independent biography.
      • The person has received significant recognized awards or honors.
      • The person has demonstrable wide name recognition
      • The person has made a widely recognized contribution that is part of the enduring historical record in his or her specific field.
    • Even in Bangladeshi media, this bureaucrat is not notable. Bangladesh appoints bureaucrats to serve as ambassadors to close to 100 countries in the world. Unless you demonstrate anything special about this person, simply being an ambassador is NOT any proof of the person's notability. Please note that I am not saying Ambassadors/diplomats in general are not notable ... but if you look into the Category:Ambassadors, you'd see most of them are notable NOT for being an appointed ambassador, but for being independently notable for their deeds or actions. Also note that the category ONLY has 44 entries, NOT the tens of thousands of people serving as ambassador of a country to another. That ought to debunk your argument about notability of ambassadors. Like other Government services, being an ambassador isn't much of a feat, unless the person performs some notable acts, substantiated by independent sources. Thanks. --Ragib 02:47, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
You are right that Wikipedia is still very incomplete. I think it ranks right up there with member of a national legislature or cabinet minister. I'd think that Bangladesh has 100 or some people who count as eminent diplomats. I wouldn't extend this to lower ranking positions in a contries foreign service, probably not even to chargé d'affaires, and certainly not consuls. But this is the top rank. DGG (talk) 04:53, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
That Wikipedia is incomplete isn't really a justification for including non-notable Government officers. If you consider official protocol, hundreds of other Government officials have the same or higher rank as these diplomats ... that doesn't mean we need to create articles on each of them unless they are notable. You still haven't justified the criteria I quoted above, simply being a officer is not notable per WP:BIO. Also, we don't see articles on each of the 10s or 100s of diplomats of each country to other countries ... simply because they, by virtue of their job titles, are not notable. Thanks. --Ragib 05:20, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
"Comment'as people write them, we will have them. I am glad that someone has at least started here. He is clearly a major Bangladeshi diplomat, and I am somewhat surprised at the vehemence of the opposition. DGG (talk) 17:39, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
You are assuming that he's a major diplomat. You are assuming that this post is more significant than thousands of other similarly ranked bureaucratic posts of Bangladesh Govt. Wikipedia is not a place for "Who's Who of Bangladeshi Government Officials" :). As I have mentioned several times above, you have not showed any notability proofs for this person ... (other than his post ... which is not really very significant, and definitely not encyclopedic by itself). --Ragib 21:06, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete- Based on WP:BIO, to be notable the person MUST HAVE BEEN the subject of published secondary sources that are reliable, intellectually independent, and independent of the subject. No such evidence is available for this subject. The position held by this person (ambassador) is not a political position, rather a bureaucratic post. Hence the special notability criteria for politicians also do not apply for this subject. Arman (Talk) 09:01, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment N(People) is a guideline, not policy, and intended to be interpreted flexibly, as are all guidelines. Quite a number of positions are accepted as notable, such as all state and provincial legislators, on the general argument that there will be sources if one looks hard enough in printed sources--and this extends backwards historically. Similarly, any ambassador in the course of the career can be expected to have had such sources--and the standard for WP is Verifiable. We do not delete articles for lacking sources. You keep saying just an officer, just a civil servant--there are obviously many ranks of each, and in the foreign service of any country this is the top rank. As a general overall guideline, the top rank of any profession is notable. Hate to mention it, but the article is being attacked with unusual intensity. DGG (talk) 17:34, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
The WP:N guideline is there to ensure exactly this: vanity articles about non-notable people. As mentioned above, buereaucrats serving in the Bangladesh Foreign Service are not notable just because of their post, as numerous officials with higher precedence exist. Also, please refrain from making personal attacks or insinuating comments on my proposal for deletion: as a native Bangladeshi, I have a good idea of who is notable and who is not, and here I am proposing deletion of a vanity autobiography of a non-notable Govt. officer. Please stop inventing claims about notability of ambassadors ... people are not notable just for being so ... Also, an ambassador is NOT the top ranked post in Bangladesh Foreign Service or Bangladesh Govt (per the rules/protocol). Thank you. --Ragib 18:34, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
Delete All professionals are significant, all people are important, all life is valuable. It would be great if Wikipedia could accommodate all 7 billion people living and all those countless billions who have passed away. That would make it a complete repository of biographical information, almost. But, until and unless that happens why even try to get small-time ambassadors included here? If there are 150 countries in the world, each trying to post 1 ambassador to each other, and with ambassadors retiring and new ones joining, how would you accommodate those millions of ambassadors here? Aditya(talk • contribs) 11:21, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
since not all smaller countries post ambassadors to all others (& this guy seems in fact to be the ambassador to several), the number is more likely about 10,000 - 15,000 at a time. They tend to stay in office a few years, as has this one. so that's 5,000 new articles a year. We have over 2 million articles now. We can handle that many more, if people do the work. WP is NOT PAPER. and as I said, only the top rank of professions are generally intrinsically notable. ambassador is the top rank. DGG (talk) 05:53, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
Keep A template is needed for additional citations, but deletion is not warranted here.--Libertyguy 01:57, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.