Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/A.J. Morton
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- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. Kurykh 02:14, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] A.J. Morton
A.J. Morton is the same individual as Jamie Morton, an article about whom was deleted after discussion (see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jamie Morton). While I cannot access the deleted version to see whether the contents are "substantially identical" (and therefore a candidate for deletion by CSD G4), reading both the previous deletion discussion and this article suggests to me that the same notability concerns remain. Kife 10:43, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- Comment Hi there. I am not used to making articles about living people but I remember the content of the last one. There were no references, no links (internal or external) and no obvious notable facts. There was also doubt as to whether or not the actor existed which, considering his entry at the British Film Institute and Hollywood.com (and the IMDb), is a bit silly. The doubt as to his existence was the reason it was deleted. It was seen as a hoax for some reason. Weird. However, if the article still doesn't satisfy, you can delete it but since it is crucially different from the first and since the existence of the actor is beyond doubt, and since his parts were quite sizable, I think it would be a mistake. His first film was a multi award winning one and the actor played the star's older brother. TheBourtreehillian (talk) 11:21, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- Comment To help inform the discussion, Morton's IMDB entry is here. --Kife 11:34, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Actors and actresses-related deletion discussions. —Kife 14:20, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- Delete. A grand total of three roles, only one of which may be just barely on the far horizon of notability (like the scene where Omar Sharif makes his first appearance in Lawrence of Arabia). Unlike Sharif however, Morton doesn't get any nearer. Clarityfiend (talk) 19:30, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- Delete. I prodded it but the author disputed; would have speedied as a recreaction if I'd known. --kingboyk (talk) 20:50, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- Comment The guy was a local in Scotland and I thought I knew enough about him to make an article. As I say, delete it if the article doesn't satisfy. Mind you, the three role comment (witty though it is) is quite silly. I could name a number of actors who had similarly low amounts of roles (James Dean, for example, did exactly three feature films). But of course Morton isn't by any stretch of the imagination as notable as dean. It's just a flawed reason for deletion. I really don't mind what you do. I am more interested in local history articles anyway. Do what you will. I really don't mind. TheBourtreehillian (talk) 21:03, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- additional: I was looking at the other actors on the "for deletion" list and it seems to be comprised of extras and bit-parts in small films. Considering that Silent Scream won a best film award, a BAFTA, a golden Bear, a silver bear and was premiered in Berlin, (he is also recorded in the British Film Institute - which is run privately and cannot be accessed or altered by the actors themselves) I really can't see how he fits in here. As I say, I don't mind the short article being deleted (didn't put much work into it - like the history articles) but surely there has to be better grounds. My cousin has his autograph. You don't ask low-notables and extras for autographs. TheBourtreehillian (talk) 21:22, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- Reply (after repeated edit conflict) While I understand the point that the number of roles isn't in itself an indicator of how notable an actor is, I believe Clarityfiend's comment was intended to convey that the nature of Morton's three roles is a factor – I'm fairly sure there was and is no threat of an Oscar nomination, posthumous or otherwise. --Kife 21:25, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- Reply That is surely another flawed reason though. There are hundreds of HUGE actors that never get an Oscar. I saw his film again a few years ago and his part recurred all the way through it. He played the big brother of the star. Don's (Morton's character) awful behaviour was the reason for Larry's (the star - played by Iain Glen) psychosis and therefore his jail-term. I don't know how to make him more notable. So just delete it. The movie won awards (best actor, best movie, best director) and so he surely can't simply be grouped with extras whose only claim to fame is appearing once in a bosnian soap. He shoots someone in the film and commits a serious robbery! He is also a member of the cast of a film already given an entry in wiki - Silent Scream (1990 film)TheBourtreehillian (talk) 22:21, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- Comment I haven't seen Silent Scream, so I have to go by what I can find. IMDb doesn't list him at all, and TCM has him far down the cast. Also, being in an award-winning film does not guarantee notability. Clarityfiend (talk) 02:55, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
- Reply IMDb doesn't list him?? Yes it does. Morton IMDb and he is in the cast list of Silent Scream on IMdb too. Good grief, you should as wikipedians, click the references. Having a sizable part in an award winning film doesn't guarantee notability?? Oh well. I find that weird. But oh well. TheBourtreehillian (talk) 09:22, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
- Question Surely it's Alexander Morton, Jamie's (AJ Morton's) father, who has the "sizable" part? Jamie Morton played the young Don Winters; Alexander Morton plays the adult Don Winters (Jamie was only 10 at the time). --Kife 10:29, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
- ReplyOk I understand the confusion. No, Jamie (or AJ or what ever he calls himself how) had a considerably bigger part in the film. I think his father only appears one or twice and he doesn't say much. I never even knew his dad was in it. I understand the confusion though. You would think it would be the other way round. But Jamie's part is considerably bigger. He commits crimes, swears a lot, shoots someone, breaks into a building, touches up classical naked statues (lol) and falls in a river. He has more lines and more screen time than his father did. He was also on the official poster. His father wasn't. TheBourtreehillian (talk) 12:49, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
- Question Surely it's Alexander Morton, Jamie's (AJ Morton's) father, who has the "sizable" part? Jamie Morton played the young Don Winters; Alexander Morton plays the adult Don Winters (Jamie was only 10 at the time). --Kife 10:29, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
- Reply IMDb doesn't list him?? Yes it does. Morton IMDb and he is in the cast list of Silent Scream on IMdb too. Good grief, you should as wikipedians, click the references. Having a sizable part in an award winning film doesn't guarantee notability?? Oh well. I find that weird. But oh well. TheBourtreehillian (talk) 09:22, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
- Comment I haven't seen Silent Scream, so I have to go by what I can find. IMDb doesn't list him at all, and TCM has him far down the cast. Also, being in an award-winning film does not guarantee notability. Clarityfiend (talk) 02:55, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
- Reply That is surely another flawed reason though. There are hundreds of HUGE actors that never get an Oscar. I saw his film again a few years ago and his part recurred all the way through it. He played the big brother of the star. Don's (Morton's character) awful behaviour was the reason for Larry's (the star - played by Iain Glen) psychosis and therefore his jail-term. I don't know how to make him more notable. So just delete it. The movie won awards (best actor, best movie, best director) and so he surely can't simply be grouped with extras whose only claim to fame is appearing once in a bosnian soap. He shoots someone in the film and commits a serious robbery! He is also a member of the cast of a film already given an entry in wiki - Silent Scream (1990 film)TheBourtreehillian (talk) 22:21, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- Reply (after repeated edit conflict) While I understand the point that the number of roles isn't in itself an indicator of how notable an actor is, I believe Clarityfiend's comment was intended to convey that the nature of Morton's three roles is a factor – I'm fairly sure there was and is no threat of an Oscar nomination, posthumous or otherwise. --Kife 21:25, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- additional: I was looking at the other actors on the "for deletion" list and it seems to be comprised of extras and bit-parts in small films. Considering that Silent Scream won a best film award, a BAFTA, a golden Bear, a silver bear and was premiered in Berlin, (he is also recorded in the British Film Institute - which is run privately and cannot be accessed or altered by the actors themselves) I really can't see how he fits in here. As I say, I don't mind the short article being deleted (didn't put much work into it - like the history articles) but surely there has to be better grounds. My cousin has his autograph. You don't ask low-notables and extras for autographs. TheBourtreehillian (talk) 21:22, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- Delete Ok, after considering what's been said in the discussion so far, I'm still not seeing a significant body of work here. Moreover, there's the difficulty of not being able to verify the biography from reliable and independent sources, given that much of it seems unsourced or sourced from the likes of IMDB. I did, however, find the website of an "A J Morton" who describes himself as "former child actor" who "gave up his career at the age of 17 after several small parts in theatre, TV and film, to study history"; if this is, indeed, the real AJ Morton, he doesn't appear to think his former career that significant. Perhaps he'll be a notable historian at some point, but that's in the future. --Kife 13:46, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
- Reply That is the best reason I have heard. Delete away! :) TheBourtreehillian (talk) 18:52, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
- Delete, notability not verifiable. The biography in IMDB notes "IMDb Mini Biography By: Jennifer Morton", who could be a relative, which makes it more questionable. Truthanado (talk) 00:16, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
- Reply WHOA! I never knew IMDb was made by users!! I won't trust that again. However, Morton is also recorded in the Archives of the British Film Institute and they DON'T include non-notables. —Preceding unsigned comment added by TheBourtreehillian (talk • contribs) 01:10, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
- Comment It's the reason IMDB is not generally treated as a reliable source. However, the BFI database, while very useful, has no brief to only include notable individuals – which is why, for example, there's an entry for Cleo Mason (Angel #3 in Forest of the Damned), among other people with only non-speaking or minor parts. --Kife 10:14, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
- Comment I didn't realise that about the BFI. However, Jamie's role was neither non-speaking or a minor part. The older brother was instrumental in sending the star (Iain Glen) to jail. I also thought that being trained by Robert Carlyle in the raindog theatre company and being a notable character in Carlyle's debut film lended biographical notability. I really don't see the similarity with Morton and glorified extras. Cleo made one thing and didn't even have a character name. Morton made three and was notable in each. Perhaps if I included a description (from memory) of what exactly Morton did in Silent Scream it would help you decide what to do. No-one here so far has said they have seen the film, so all assertions of a non-notability-role are based on opinion and not facts. TheBourtreehillian (talk) 12:54, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
- Comment I think it would perhaps be useful for you to review some guidelines on notability. An association with a notable individual (which Carlyle clearly is) doesn't necessarily mean that notability rubs off. What's needed is a demonstration that Morton has received "significant coverage in reliable secondary sources that are independent of the subject" (see my comment above). As far as I've been able to ascertain, reviews of Silent Scream, for example, focus on the work of Iain Glenn or the director. James Dean of the three roles has had a ton of material written about him and his short career – what is there on Jamie Morton in that line? --Kife 13:59, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
- Comment I didn't realise that about the BFI. However, Jamie's role was neither non-speaking or a minor part. The older brother was instrumental in sending the star (Iain Glen) to jail. I also thought that being trained by Robert Carlyle in the raindog theatre company and being a notable character in Carlyle's debut film lended biographical notability. I really don't see the similarity with Morton and glorified extras. Cleo made one thing and didn't even have a character name. Morton made three and was notable in each. Perhaps if I included a description (from memory) of what exactly Morton did in Silent Scream it would help you decide what to do. No-one here so far has said they have seen the film, so all assertions of a non-notability-role are based on opinion and not facts. TheBourtreehillian (talk) 12:54, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
- Comment It's the reason IMDB is not generally treated as a reliable source. However, the BFI database, while very useful, has no brief to only include notable individuals – which is why, for example, there's an entry for Cleo Mason (Angel #3 in Forest of the Damned), among other people with only non-speaking or minor parts. --Kife 10:14, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
- Reply WHOA! I never knew IMDb was made by users!! I won't trust that again. However, Morton is also recorded in the Archives of the British Film Institute and they DON'T include non-notables. —Preceding unsigned comment added by TheBourtreehillian (talk • contribs) 01:10, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
- Delete - It seems the entire idea of even considering to include this person is hinging on one movie role where it appears he plays a very minor character. Constantly pointing to the importance of this movie (which isn't exactly Star Wars or Casablanca, by the way) doesn't go very far in the way of his notability. Also, there are other verifiability issues.Gwynand (talk) 17:29, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
- Delete I wish someone else here had seen it. His role isn't minor, as I have said (shoots guns, commits robberies, breaking and entering, falls in river, touches up statues, gets in a fight). However, I was already convinced by the previous message. Secondary sources are thin on the ground (though I notice Iain Glen's own website mentions Morton) and I think, after looking at the Notability guidelines, that the article should be deleted. I find it odd that a notable character in an award winning film isn't himself notable. But them's the rules so delete away. TheBourtreehillian (talk) 21:56, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
- Delete Google search didn't turn up anything outstanding, and as was pointed out above, IMDB is also created by users (one who in this case seems to have a conflict of interest), so it shouldn't be considered a primary source. Master of Puppets Call me MoP!☺ 23:04, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
