Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/7th Wonder
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- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was no consensus. W.marsh 20:53, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] 7th Wonder
This song is simply not worthy its own page. Drew88 08:16, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
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- This AfD nomination was incomplete. It is listed now. DumbBOT 18:50, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
- Keep, no valid deletion reason given. feydey 21:36, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
- Comment Here's the reason: Many other songs have placed second at the Eurovision song contest, inluding Malta's own Chiara with her song "Angel", but none of them have their own page. Drew88 05:45, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
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- Comment - before I created a few of them this year, many multiple Olympic gold medallist swimmers, world champions and Tour de France winners did not have articles- so we should delete them too? Just because others are lazy does not mean a hard-worker should have their hard work cut-up and binned. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 00:47, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
- Comment - just because they don't yet doesn't mean that they won't ever. I'm currently working on pages for ESC entries going by country (in the middle of Luxembourg at the moment) and I can tell you that the following Contests have their second-place songs written up: 1956 (inasmuch as there was a second place, we probably have it), 1957, 1967, 1974, 1976, 1978, 1980, 1981, 1982, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1987, 1990, 1991, 1997, 1999, 2001, 2002 (the subject of this AfD), 2003 and 2006. The majority of the missing years are due to the fact that the United Kingdom has placed second something like 15 times and I just haven't got as far as U yet. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 06:41, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
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- Strong Keep for a number of reasons. Most importantly, the song placed second at a major (arguably the major) international competition. Eurovision performances are broadcast throughout Europe, as well as at least as far as Canada and Australia, which means that it attracted a sizable audience. Additionally, to get as far as the Eurovision stage, it had to win a national competition (the Maltese pre-selection) first. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 22:41, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
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- Note: While "precedent" is often a dirty word around here, I'd point all concerned to these two AfDs, in which the consensus was established that even a song which came second-last was sufficiently notable for our purposes for the simple reason that it was the song which represented a country at a major international event for that year. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 12:02, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
- I've also rewritten the article in order to show a clearer level of notability. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 12:16, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
- Note: While "precedent" is often a dirty word around here, I'd point all concerned to these two AfDs, in which the consensus was established that even a song which came second-last was sufficiently notable for our purposes for the simple reason that it was the song which represented a country at a major international event for that year. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 12:02, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
- Delete per nom. Marcus1234 11:26, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
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- This despite the fact that the song in fact passes the proposed guideline with flying colours? BigHaz - Schreit mich an 22:30, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
- How does it pass the guideline exactly? The song does not satisfy any of the listed standards. It did not win a major award, it is not an anthem, and it is not a musical standard. It did not appear in any top 20 or top 100, it did not define any music genre etc etc Marcus1234 09:48, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
- This despite the fact that the song in fact passes the proposed guideline with flying colours? BigHaz - Schreit mich an 22:30, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
- AFD relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached.
Please add new discussions below this notice. Thanks, KrakatoaKatie 23:19, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
- Strong keep - Meets all criteria in WP:MUSIC - won a nationally televised competition, must have charted higly in the given country, was screened across all of Europe and widely across the world to more than a billion people - came 2nd in a continental music competition.....etc, etc....much more than the bar wich seems to allow random pub bands performing to a crowd of 300 in some random city to be kept. 00:47, 9 November 2006 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Blnguyen (talk • contribs)
- Comment That's not the song guideline, it's the musician guideline. Marcus1234 09:52, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
- Per that guideline, too, it's notable. The big four it misses out on, true, but turning our attention to the other 11 criteria we can see that it Is the signature song of a performer, certainly in the sense that Losco has a signature song for non-Maltese listeners. It was also the subject of a major publicity campaign, in that Maltese television wanted it to win the ESC that year and promoted it accordingly. I'd argue that it is also a particularly well-known song from a piece of musical theater, radio, film or television, being performed live at an internationally-televised event. I'd also suggest, subject to research which I'm mid-way through at the moment, that it could well have appeared in the Top 20 of a national singles chart in a large or medium sized country or Charted in the Top 100 of a national singles chart in a large or medium sized country, for at least six months, although I may be proven wrong there. Add into that the fact that it was nominated for a national award and I think we've got a notable song on our hands. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 10:42, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
- Postscript The song placed in the top 20 on the Maltese chart this is the site with the information, although it's not set up well enough that a direct link will work. You'll need to mouse-over the "About Ira" section and then go to the "Detailed Biography By Year" and select 2002. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 10:52, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
- Comment You said it yourself: Maltese chart. Malta is far from a large or medium sized country, hence, it misses out on that criteria. You also stated that it's her "signature song", but that's merely your opinion. You also stated that it's a "well-known piece from a piece of musical theater, radio, film or television", citing the fact that it was performed live on tv, but you are fully aware that the guideline refers to a theme song or other song associated with a specific production. I will concede that it was subject to a major publicity campaign, but that's about it. Delete Marcus1234 11:02, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
- I am in fact blissfully unaware of that interpretation of that clause, for the simple reason that it's not clarified anywhere on that page or its associated Talk. In terms of one's "signature song", the description of any song as such is often going to be a matter of debate. What I will say, though, is that it's the song for which she is best known outside of Malta, which would go quite some way towards it being her signature song. In terms of the size of the country, there's also some evidence that it charted in Germany. I was reluctant to add this at first, since the page doesn't actually say what number it charted at, but in an effort to counter systemic bias then it seems important. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 11:31, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
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- Out of curiosity, is not a song competition covering all of Malta a "major award" within the meaning of WP:MUSIC/SONG? BigHaz - Schreit mich an 11:36, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
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- I am in fact blissfully unaware of that interpretation of that clause, for the simple reason that it's not clarified anywhere on that page or its associated Talk. In terms of one's "signature song", the description of any song as such is often going to be a matter of debate. What I will say, though, is that it's the song for which she is best known outside of Malta, which would go quite some way towards it being her signature song. In terms of the size of the country, there's also some evidence that it charted in Germany. I was reluctant to add this at first, since the page doesn't actually say what number it charted at, but in an effort to counter systemic bias then it seems important. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 11:31, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
- Comment Regarding being in the German charts, there is absolutely no evidence that it was listed for at least six months and I'm most certain that it was never in a major Top 20 chart. Regarding your other point, I certainly do not classify winning the "Malta Song for Europe" as a major award, and I doubt anyone would. Technically, it's not even an award, as the wikipedia page itself states: it's the song festival which decides who will be Malta's entry in the Eurovision Song Contest. If the "Song for Europe" competitions were a "major award", then every song that has ever participated in the ESC would merit its own page! I'll stop here...Marcus1234 12:10, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
- Response So far, the precedent has been that every ESC entry does merit its own page. The two AfDs I've linked to before have upheld that idea, even as far as to say that a song that came second-last is notable. Indeed, a song which came stone motherless last was sufficiently notable to appear on DYK. We talk a lot about "ESC winners" meaning the artists who perform the song, but in a very real way it's actually the song which wins or places - hence the notability of a song which places second, especially when this is the equal-best (then-best) result that a country has had. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 20:44, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
- Comment You said it yourself: Maltese chart. Malta is far from a large or medium sized country, hence, it misses out on that criteria. You also stated that it's her "signature song", but that's merely your opinion. You also stated that it's a "well-known piece from a piece of musical theater, radio, film or television", citing the fact that it was performed live on tv, but you are fully aware that the guideline refers to a theme song or other song associated with a specific production. I will concede that it was subject to a major publicity campaign, but that's about it. Delete Marcus1234 11:02, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
- Postscript The song placed in the top 20 on the Maltese chart this is the site with the information, although it's not set up well enough that a direct link will work. You'll need to mouse-over the "About Ira" section and then go to the "Detailed Biography By Year" and select 2002. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 10:52, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
- Per that guideline, too, it's notable. The big four it misses out on, true, but turning our attention to the other 11 criteria we can see that it Is the signature song of a performer, certainly in the sense that Losco has a signature song for non-Maltese listeners. It was also the subject of a major publicity campaign, in that Maltese television wanted it to win the ESC that year and promoted it accordingly. I'd argue that it is also a particularly well-known song from a piece of musical theater, radio, film or television, being performed live at an internationally-televised event. I'd also suggest, subject to research which I'm mid-way through at the moment, that it could well have appeared in the Top 20 of a national singles chart in a large or medium sized country or Charted in the Top 100 of a national singles chart in a large or medium sized country, for at least six months, although I may be proven wrong there. Add into that the fact that it was nominated for a national award and I think we've got a notable song on our hands. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 10:42, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
