Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2008 UEFA qualifier fan attack

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Sr13 02:50, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 2008 UEFA qualifier fan attack

2008 UEFA qualifier fan attack (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

Page not really needed as it is not a major part of the qualifying, it has its own section of the main article anyway Chaza93 19:39, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

  • Keep This is the biggest scandal in Danish football ever, and is too large and complicated to be a section. kalaha 19:43, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep Plenty of reliable sources covering this, a rather unusual incident that is perhaps more important than the qualification matches it occurred during. Definitely deserves a separate article. JulesH 20:13, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep: It's probaly the biggest scandal in Scandinavian football as long as anybody remembers. Though it needs to improved and I don't think the current title is ideal.--Bagande 20:09, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment I think it should be moved to a general article about the match such as some of those Category:Football (soccer) matches. The name would then be Denmark v Sweden (2007). --Bagande 20:17, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete, recentism. Jon Harald Søby 20:42, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
    • To clarify, I feel the subject should be covered, but does not merit an article in its own rights; so it should be merged into whatever article is appropriate. Jon Harald Søby 21:41, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
      • Since you were kind enough to inform me that Wikipedia is not a newspaper, it would also be helpful if you could tell us what article is the "whatever article". I'm not sure the parent article could swallow this article. Odengatan 22:11, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
  • CommentI think it is too early to say whether or not this incident will gain a lot of attention in the media. However, this incident has the potential to change many laws concerning stadium safety and may even prevent a nation from qualifying for the European Championships, which is something that has on international level never been seen before. It is a fact that this incident has received a lot of media attention in many parts of the world. It will be a very emotional issue between the sets of supporters, which in turn has the potential to go on for a long time. I do reiterate that I definetly believe that it is way too early to delete the page as the incident has just occured a couple of days ago. Wwicki 15:18, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
    • European Championships, not World Cup..... ChrisTheDude 15:30, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep. This is a major sporting scandal and deserves a separate article. Camptown 21:12, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep - a major incident. ArtVandelay13 21:41, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep - major event in European football and the greatest danish sports scandal in years. -- Imladros 22:48, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Transwiki to WikiNews - While this incident may be newsworthy, I'm not sure it is encyclopedically notable. There's also a hint of recentism, as Jon Harald Søby indicates. AecisBrievenbus 23:00, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete It is technically notable as it has been covered by muliple, non trivial sources, but then again, any random player scoring a goal in the UEFA tournament will also have multiple articles written about it. Not sure that anyone would keep 2007 David Beckham goal around. This is a severe case of recentism, and I'm not convinced that it needs its own article. This is already adequately covered in Denmark national football team season 2007 (and incidents like this are one of the reasons why I personally favour team season articles, it affords a good place to put these incidents), and deserves a mention on List of violent spectator incidents in sports. Resolute 23:20, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep This was a major incident that received a lot of coverage and which could have a big affect as to which countries qualify for the European Championship because of the actions of one fan. ♦Tangerines BFC ♦·Talk 00:58, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Merge and redirect I attempted to start a merge discussion on this article, but the merge tag was quickly removed twice. While it is not noteworthy to stand on its own article. It's certainly worth a mention in the parent article. --Monotonehell 10:01, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Merge and redirect per Monotonehell, and also per points raised by Resolute - also ambiguous title. Comment: Which fan attack, as it won't be or hasn't been the only one? If it is Kept, it should specify further in some way. Why not "2008 UEFA qualifier Danish fan attack"? However, I would go with Montonehell. Ref (chew)(do) 10:20, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment: Since it happened in 2007 I think it is unfortunate to have 2008 as part of its title. --Bagande 13:02, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
    • Wow... "it was never a big story in England, so it obviously wasn't major news" Has the IRC gone totally crazy...? Sorry... ;) --Camptown 10:47, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
      • Comment - I am also from England. It barely scratches the surface as a newsworthy item here. Ref (chew)(do) 10:57, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
        • Is that so... then, we'd better keep it! ;) Camptown 11:19, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
        • Comment - When i said it wasn't heard about in England, i meant that if it was such a major incident, it would have been heard about over all of europe. Jack Milne – 12:06, 6 June 2007 (Talk — Contributions)
        • Comment #2 - After some discussion with Camptown, i think we should wait for UEFA's decission. Jackrm 12:04, 6 June 2007 (UTC) (Talk — Contributions)
  • Transwiki as per Aecis --OZOO (vote saxon) 13:22, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Merge and redirect or alternatively transwiki. Relevant only within the UEFA Euro 2008 qualifications, not a major event (if you look at the whole set of Italian football leagues, you can find events like these in a monthly basis), no need for a standalone article. --Angelo 13:39, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment Yeah... in Italy matches are frequently rigged, managers sent to jail and stadiums are closed to the fans. But, frankly, does it often occur that international soccer championship matches are suspended because the referee has been assaulted by a spectator, affecting as to which countries qualify in the international championship, and the national stadium being considered for down-grading? I'm asking, because I'm not a soccer pundit, yet still surprized that this shouldn't qulify as a notable event! --Camptown 14:05, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
      • Comment I am not against talking about the event, however I don't think we should make it as a standalone article about a single attempted (and failed) attack to a football referee. Events like these are unfortunately more frequent than you can believe, they even implicitly assigned a "scudetto" to Napoli over ten years ago (look around the web for the Alemao coin throwing incident). I might tell you of what a friend of mine told about a Serie D football match in which a linesman was hit by a drum thrown by a single fan who allegedly shouted "it was me!" following the event and justified himself by saying "the linesman was clearly bribed". But the question is: would you recall the event as so important in the next five years? I think no. --Angelo 17:32, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
        • Comment With all due respect, an incident in a Serie D match is not much of a comparison. It's the fact that this incident happened in such a major game that makes it noteworthy. A match of this importance has never before been suspended because of a spectator attacking the referee. To make another bad comparison. There's a lenghty article on the travels of Pope John Paul II. You could say that a lot of people travel from Italy, but that would be missing the point. The news here is not primarily the attack, it's the consequences it had on an official UEFA qualifier being suspended for the first time ever. JdeJ 18:18, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
          • Comment In fact I am not asking to delete the article, but to merge it into either UEFA Euro 2008 or 2008 UEFA European Football Championship qualifying. As you stated, the event is encyclopedic solely due to the context in which it happened, so there's no trouble in merging it into the main "context" article. --Angelo 19:03, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
            • Comment. But, then 2008 UEFA European Football Championship qualifying would be too long - and subsequently have to split. Bondkaka 19:16, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
              • Comment. I do not think that we shoudl merge this article if this means decreasing th length and the depth. I doubt that we'll be able to merge it because it will probably make up most off the new article. It would be far more productive if we create a separate paragraph on the article of the 2008 European Championship Qualifications. Then we should link it to this article here, which goes on in greater depth about the incident. Wwicki 07:00, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
                • Comment. The thing is that it is relevant outside of the UEFA Euro 2008 qualifications. It is very likely that it will lead to news laws and/or regulations being implemented in Denmark and possibly also in Sweden/Norway. It will probably lead to a significant loss of revenue for the Danish FA and Parken Sport & Entertainment (owners of the Parken Stadium), who will then try to hold the fan liable. Furthermore it is likely that it will lead to a trial on the violent behavior of Christian Poulsen, which would then set a precedent. etc. etc.--Bagande 12:05, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep This is a major event in Sweden were I come from, and also in Denmark. Keep the page, 'cause this will be a thing people will talk about for a long, long time. This is so much bigger than just an ordinary football game with some gruffing. --193.13.131.253 14:05, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep. To the best of my knowledge, this is the first time an UEFA game has been suspended (and not started again) because of supporter violence. Being the first such incident, it will influence how similar incidents in the future will be judged. Not being an ordinary incident but instead the first of its kind in an important game, the article should be kept. JdeJ 14:29, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
    • Off-topic: afaik something similar happened about 20 years ago, during a qualifier between the Netherlands and Cyprus. That particular game had to be replayed without spectators. AecisBrievenbus 22:56, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
      • Similar yes, but I understand that match was unique as it was abandoned (and not played again later). And hopefully, UEFA will develop further why the referee took that decision. Camptown 21:04, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep for reasons well-stated by JdeJ. NawlinWiki 14:33, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep. Important news. The article is a worthy candidat for WP:ITN; and as such should not be deleted or merged. Odengatan 17:44, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
    • Wikipedia is an encyclopædia, not a newspaper. Jon Harald Søby 21:41, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
      • Does that imply that the article must be deleted? Odengatan 21:54, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
      • True, it's an encyclopedia. That doesn't imply that we always have to wait a year to create an article on significant events, there are recent articles on a number of subjects - including elections, recent crimes, wars and sporting events. This is one of the latter. As the event is notable in itself, for reasons I've already stated, I see no reason to delete the article now only to recreate it in five months. JdeJ 22:33, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep - i've changed my mind. important and major incident in the qualifying. Maybe name change etc. Jackrm 21:46, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep Afther the match there were supposed to be news for about an hour after, butt they decided to skip it and make a discussion about the nights event. (I am from denmark) --86.52.60.83 22:17, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep It was a major scandal in Denmark. In particular since Danish sports has prided itself of trying to avoid hooliganism, so it is a bleak point in the history of Danish football. Valentinian T / C 10:01, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Merge with Euro 2008 qualifying. Starfighter Pilot 10:51, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep Major UEFA scandal. It's not that often that a fan in any sport is able to run onto a field and attack a participant, particularly not a game of this importance. --Kitch (Talk : Contrib) 11:12, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep Changed mind --OZOO (vote saxon) 11:20, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep Major footballing incident (unprecedented in Euro qualifiers?) the result of which will affect multiple nations qualifying hopes (Denmark, Northern Ireland, Spain & Sweden). Ambiguous title though. 192.193.245.14 11:32, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep Unprecedented incident that bring interesting consequences. Merger doesn't seem to be a realistic option as the parent article alreay is quite extensive. Bondkaka 13:56, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete the infobox looks like it was a terror attack --TheFEARgod (Ч) 13:59, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep. I can't improve on any of the rationales I've seen, so I won't try. — Dale Arnett 15:36, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment: Now that I've thought of it, another reason that I don't think anyone has mentioned for this being such a big deal is because the Denmark national team's traveling fanbase has until now been world-renowned for its friendliness and aversion to hooliganism. — Dale Arnett 22:00, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep. A very big scandal, because people often say it can't happen when Nordic countries play each other because of the "good" relations between Nordic countries. / Johan1982 22.21 7 June 2007 (CEST)
  • Keep as per all the above reasons. It holds a lot of information and I see absolutely no reason why it should be lost. Especially from today when speculation can soon stop as UEFA will announce their verdict (probably a Danish 3-0 defeat). It should be mentioned in the parent article, but with a main article tag linking to this page (as it is, indeed, highly unlikely that anyone will find it on its own). It could be renamed, of course, but I honestly can't think to what.Lilac Soul 05:40, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment Is this really the best title for this article? Robotforaday 15:33, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment No. --Bagande 19:54, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep - This is a HUGE news story here in Denmark and should be given its own page as it is a big issue for both Danish and Swedish football and is a bit too big and complex to be a small sction on the main qualifiers page. It is not just a football game with a couple of red cards and scuffles, it forced the game to be abandoned and could have huge repurcussions for Denmark. --Liverpoolstarlette 14:38, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep. This has made the television and print news across Europe from what I can see, certainly as far away as Britain and Ireland. Although I am from neither Denmark or Sweden, I would think that such a story would cause a national scandal if it happened in my native country. But I agree that perhaps the title could be altered? --Candlewicke Consortiums Limited 15:50, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
  • KeepWith the strict verdict from UEFA, today, I see this as an important article. Hjorten 16:40, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete Sorry, totally irrelevant data. A fan goes nuts in minute 89 of a soccer match. The UEFA decides that the match will be counted as 3:0 for Sweden. So where's the news? Events like that are not unusual. Do we have an article about Turkey - Switzerland at the WC qualifying? The note The abandoned match between Denmark and Sweden was a 3-0 win awarded to Sweden, after UEFA's hearing on 8 June 2007. at 2008 UEFA European Football Championship qualifying#Group G is all what is worthy to note. --213.155.224.232 18:56, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment Sorry, but that's nonsense. 'Event like that are not unusual'? It's the first time ever it has happened in the history of UEFA, and it was a major sport news across Europe. JdeJ 01:45, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
      • Comment It might be totally irrelevant to you (the anonymous user 213.155.224.232), but that does not mean it is totally irrelevant as evidenced by the majority of votes being to keep the article. Also, "Events like that are not unusual." - sorry but that is completely untrue. It is not a common occurende for a football match to be abandoned because the referee was attacked and for the game to be awarded 3-0 to one team even though the score was at the time a 3-3 draw. This was very unusual, and also as has been said, a huge event in Danish football history especially bearing in mind their normally peaceful fans (Roligans) and a huge footballing event around Europe. ♦Tangerines BFC ♦·Talk 01:52, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.