Talk:Arturo Toscanini
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Someone remove the chick pic in the "Toscanini in Time" area and replace it with the real cover of the magazine please.
Camebert, if you read the historical record of the time, it was in fact precisely those very conductors like Bruno Walter who regarded Toscanini so highly, thought of him as a god among their midst. But ok, I am not trying to push the point; we can leave the line as is. Anyway, I hope to add more objective biographical info to this article in due time. -- Viajero 20:49 26 Jul 2003 (UTC)
- I know that he was very highly regarded, but I don't think that everybody thought he was the very best. To say he was regarded as "the greatest" without qualification is a bit misleading, I think. --Camembert
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- I realize that; that's why I presented it -- rightly or wrongly -- as the POV of his contemporaries. But to sustain it would take more effort than I prepared to do at the moment. -- Viajero 13:13 27 Jul 2003 (UTC)
- What I mean is that not all his contemporaries thought he was the greatest. Maybe "regarded by many of his contemporaries as the greatest" is more to the point than "regarded by his contemporaries as one of the greatest". Anyway, I'm splitting hairs here, I agree it's not really a big deal. --Camembert
- This page is too long, I don't think Wikipedia is "elitist".
- I am interested that Bruno Walter would think highly of Toscanini. That is high praise indeed. I have the greatest regard for Bruno Walter. I thought that Toscanini was regarded by some (many?) in the contemporary musical community as a bit of a showman and also a lightweight. Wallie 20:25, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
- Bruno Walter and Toscanini were very good friends. On August 22, 1939, it was Toscanini who informed Walter that his daughter Gretel had been shot by her estranged husband, and Toscanini conducted the concert replacing Walter. They remained friends until Toscanini's death.kosboot 21:35, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Toscanini and Mussolini
Toscanini, whose father fought in Garabaldi's army, was a lifeling opponent of fascism--and had socialist leanings. As recounted in Harvey Sachs' suberb biography, Toscanini lent support to Mussolini when the latter advocated a socialist platform. But when Mussolini began to endorse fascism, Toscanini withdrew his support. [THD3]
[edit] Expand
This article is a good start, but Toscanini was a very important figure in music, and more should be said. Also, he was not without his critics, as I understand it. This article says nothing about that. --rogerd 13:50, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
It does now; read the section "Toscanini and the Critics". AlbertSM 17:21, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Rudeness
I understand he was incredibly rude to his NBC players, sometimes telling them they played like farmyard animals, and accusing their mothers of gross sexual perversions. This seems to be a significant aspect of the whole person, despite his wonderful music making. Are there are any decent references to this outrageous behaviour? JackofOz 11:48, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
All of the surviving eyewitness accounts report that Toscanini was a perfectionist and that he had quite a temper. However, he was hardest on himself and recognized there were times when he didn't do his best. He expected his musicians to play their best and if, in his opinion, they didn't, he would tell them. Since English was his second language, he often resorted to Italian, as we can hear in the surviving recordings of his rehearsals. Harvey Sachs writes of a time when Toscanini made a serious mistake in his conducting and the orchestra played correctly despite this; when Toscanini realized that HE had been wrong and the orchestra had been correct, he didn't hesitate to compliment them. There were many times when he didn't get angry, too, because the orchestra played very well, especially the BBC Symphony Orchestra. He also sometimes recognized that an orchestra he was conducting WAS playing its best, even if it wasn't up to his standards, and he would tolerate their playing without getting angry. Sallyrob 18:02, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
If he was so rude, there were very few musicians who said so. Most orchestral musicians loved him - whether it was NBC Orchestra, Philadelphia Orchestra, BBC Orchestra, NY Philharmonic, Lucerne Orchestra, etc. Kosboot 02:06, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
Toscanini was demanding, no doubt, and he certainly had a temper. But most musicians understood it was a result of his artistic integrity. One NBC player commented that when "all hell would break loose" it was "not without justification". THD3 02:26, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
- Interesting. I have a clear recollection of a BBC program about great conductors and their foibles, where the claimed words came from ("they played like farmyard animals, and accusing their mothers of gross sexual perversions"). But I can't find anything about this on the web. A bit about his temper, though: "Toscanini's behavior would nowadays send him to jail or to Anger Management classes" ([1]), so it seems he did step over the line, badly. JackofOz 05:25, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
It is very easy to focus on Toscanini's notorious temper and say that he behaved horribly at times, particularly when he insulted the musicians. However, the evidence is strong that Toscanini was no different than many other conductors of his generation; some of the most notorious but still gifted conductors included George Szell and Fritz Reiner, both friends and admirers of Toscanini, who often resorted to biting sarcasm when they were not yelling at their musicians. Perhaps today conductors are less likely to behave this way because it is "politically incorrect" or otherwise inappropriate. A good example of a very fine contemporary conductor whose temper got him into trouble with management, after the musicians complained, is Charles Dutoit, the former music director of the Montreal Symphony Orchestra. Sallyrob 17:02, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
His behavior is probably considered more outrageous today than it was sixty or more years ago. There were no "pyshological categories" such as "verbal abuse" and "physical abuse" back then, and political correctness did not exist. Verbal abuse was probably considered just one more way to get perfect results out of somebody, and it wouldn't have occurred to anyone to sue a person over it. AlbertSM 18:48, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Stereophonic recordings
Music and Arts recently released the stereo recording of Toscanini's penultimate concert (Rossini's Barber of Seville overture and Tchaikovsky's Pathetique symphony). The recording of his last concert, also in stereo has been available for years. It is my understanding that several versions of this last concert exist. The discoordination in the orchestra resulting from Toscanini's memory lapse during the Tannhauser Baccanale is very noticeable in the unedited version. THD3 23:31, 6 January 2007 (UTC) The stereo sound in the Toscanini recordings is not as spacious as the "Living Stereo" sessions which RCA Victor began to make that same year; nevertheless, it still has greater fidelity than his monaural high fidelity recordings in the 1950s. Sallyrob 19:49, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
For a Wikipedia article, this seems like an extremely minor point, unless the article expands to have a section devoted to details about Toscanini's recordings. But it does show a bias that many people today have -- that they think of Toscanini mostly as a "recording artist" rather than a musician. In other words, the focus is on his recordings, not on his musical abilities. kosboot 21:39, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
In liner notes from one of Toscanini's album, RCA Victor once lamented the fact that Toscanini had made NO stereophonic recordings. This came when RCA began releasing some of Toscanini's recordings in electronic stereo, a process which artificially tried to create the effect of stereo. Actually, Toscanini had not made any commercial recordings in stereo; it was just incidental that his last two broadcast concerts, as well as the rehearsals, were taped both in mono and stereo. As it was, he refused to approve the release of these performances. For those of us who never saw Toscanini in person, the recordings, as well as the movie Hymn of the Nation and the videos of his 10 televised concerts, are the only way we can hear and see what Toscanini was like as a conductor. In recent years, greater effort has been made to get the best possible results from the aging tapes and transcriptions which have survived. In some of the Amazon reviews, younger listeners have complained about the sound of his recordings. However, the later recordings probably have sound that is typical of the early 1950s and, thanks to digital remastering, we are hearing more than most people heard on the original LPs released by RCA Victor. Today marks the 50th anniversary of Toscanini's death and it is appropriate to remember Toscanini's legacy, which can only be appreciated by most of us through the surviving recordings. I am fortunate to have met a few people who knew or saw Toscanini and they all agreed that he was the greatest of all the conductors who lived in the first half of the twentieth century. Sallyrob 17:48, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
This page is being spammed and changed, perhaps it should be protectedNordicSkier 02:39, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
"In his will, he left his bâton to his protégée Herva Nelli." This may be true but Herva Nelli was a soprano who sang often with him as, for example, in his recording of "Aida". She was also his mistress.
His "protégée" was actually the conductor Guido Cantelli and I wonder if Toscanini, more logically, would have left his baton to him. I'm aware that Cantelli died in a plane crash less than two months before Toscanini's death but T. was never told about this for fear it would have killed him.
I would either eliminate this sentence or check it for the facts.Ed 17:26, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:ToscaniniBeethoven.jpg
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BetacommandBot 20:02, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
All of the Toscanini photos in this article are taken from RCA Victor albums. These photos have been widely circulated and it may be simply necessary to give proper credit to the photographer, whose work has been used from the LPs in the 1950s throught the CDs released in 1990. 72.37.171.52 (talk) 19:40, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:ToscaniniConducting.jpg
Image:ToscaniniConducting.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
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BetacommandBot 20:02, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:ToscaniniDisc.jpg
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BetacommandBot 20:03, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:ToscaniniSF.jpg
Image:ToscaniniSF.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
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BetacommandBot 20:03, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Final years section
It says that his last two last two NBC broadcast concerts were recorded in stereophonic sound, but the last time he conducted was in 1954 and he died before stereo was widely used. It is possible that he recorded in stereo, but highly unlikely.
NewYork1956 (talk) 08:51, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
- I saw the discussion above just now.
NewYork1956 (talk) 08:56, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Toscanini2.jpg
Image:Toscanini2.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
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BetacommandBot (talk) 07:08, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
