Talk:Artsakh

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Archives

Archive 1.

[edit] Deletion

Please do not delete info without citing your reasons. I suspect the sock puppetry here. Grandmaster 08:54, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

I see no reason why Azeri name of the region was removed. Explanation is needed. And I agree that here can be another case of sock puppetry--Dacy69 19:25, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Why not to put the Georgian verions or transliteration of Artsakh then, or Japanese? What does Russia or Azerbaijan have to do with the name of Armenian or Albanian province? Why should we mention about these languages If you consider the terrotory of Artsakh once used to be a part of Russia or Azerbaijan then we have to admit that Persia will also claim its right to place the Persian name. As far as I remember neither Persia nor Russia or Azerbaijan ever used Artsakh or even Arsak to describe the region which has always been known for them as Karabakh. If you want to go through the history, then why don't you mention the name Oristena or Urtichene, Roman Byzentine versions etc etc. I will never believe Azeris ever used Arsak. It is Karabakh for them. --armenianNY 02:00, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Because Karabakh (Artsakh) is integral part of Azerbaijan according to U.N., U.S. State Department, PACE, CIS, and Council of Europe, etc. Every single country of the world recognizes is as a part of the Republic of Azerbaijan. So, the statement of the name in the state language is a must. After all, Wikipedia is encyclopedia of facts, not of illusions.Atabek 21:55, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

So what? The word itself is Armenian and is used ONLY by Armenians.-- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 00:55, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Supposingly Nagorno Karabakh is a recognized part of Azerbaijan, so what, Artsakh is a historical part of Caucasian Albania or Armenia and its territory is not exactly what today's Nagorno karabakh is. Oristena and Utrichene included territories of todays Armenian Syunik, some part of Armenian Taush, Azeri Gyanja etc etc. When Caucasian Albania or Artsakh existed, there were no turkic speaking tribes in Caucasus since they came only in the 11th century. Therefore, it was impossible that any Azerbaijani would use the term Artsakh or Ersak,simply, because there were no Azerbaijanis there. There were Azari (not Azeri) speaking Persians in the nearby provinces, later arabs captured the territory in 7th century, and the muslim element started using the name Karabakh. Turkic tribes came later and took the term Karabakh from Persians and Arabs. We do not see any reason why should we mentioned the name of ancient province in the language that appeared centuries after that province ceased to exist. By the same way some people put the version of Battle of Sardarapat in French. Guys, this is the English Wikipedia blahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. If everybody come and put the toponim or any georgraphical or historic event in his mother tongue the whole page would be taken just by names. Will it be appropriate if I edit in Gyanja page the name and put Armenian Gandzak because we call the city that way. Or if I go and edit the page of Stambul and put the Armenian verion K.Polis with armenian letters on the top? Or there are some Armenian sources calling Baku Bagu. Sould I mention it on the top? Or may be you want also to write in Erevan page that the Azeri name is Erivan? Where is this going?--armenianNY 21:45, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

This article is about a historical province, not a political entity. Therefore, references to modern Azer. state and its state language are irrelevant. The term Artsakh has been used only by Armenians and has appeared almost exclusively in historical Armenian texts. Based on that, I agree – the Russian world "Арцах" can be removed. As to the Azerb. word Ercek or whatever, it is historically unprecedented and unreferenced, and is a modern fabrication evidently aimed at attributing Artsakh away from its Armenian origin. If participants want to use this term, they should find an NPOV third party source suggesting that Ercek has been in use as an authentic, historical term. Zurbagan 02:18, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

... continued: for instance - Constantinople. Should we include in an article about that city a Turkish version of this name simply because now it is part of Turkey? No - Constantinople is a Byzantine/Greek phenomenon, as Artsakh is an Armenian phenomenon. Zurbagan 03:07, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

...yeah, now about Ganca/Gianja (i.e. Armenian Gandzak). In the article about Ganca, the Armenian term Gandzak should be mentioned - in contrast to this specific case. This is because Gandzak is the original or at least the earliest recorded name for that settlement. Ganca is likely to be a phonetic distortion of the word Gandzak. Zurbagan 03:47, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

"Gandzak" is not Armenian -- it is Iranic, Persian. Even the capital of Iran was Gandzak -- and that was way before Ganja was founded in 5th century AD. So sorry, but "Gandzak" is as Armenian as "Artsakh". --AdilBaguirov 08:29, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I removed the claim that there’s a consensus among Armenian scholars that the region was populated by Armenians. First, not all Armenian scholars believe so. See the article by Ronald Suny:

The Caucasus region has long been the scene of very serious social, religious and ethnic conflicts. Back in the Middle Ages, before the Turkish people migrated here from central Asia, eastern Transcaucasia was known as Caucasian Albania. No relation to the Balkan Albanians, these were a Christianized people quite close to the Armenians. Once the Seljuk Turks began arriving in the 11th century, the Albanians in the mountainous area – Karabagh up to historic Armenia – remained largely Christian and eventually merged with the Armenians. The Albanians in the eastern plain leading down to the Caspian Sea mixed with the Turkish population and eventually became Muslims.

Ronald G. Suny: What Happened in Soviet Armenia? Middle East Report, No. 153, Islam and the State. (Jul. - Aug., 1988), pp. 37-40.

You can check it at JSTOR here: [1]

And second, it is irrelevant whether there’s consensus among Armenian scholars or not, we don’t base the article on the position of the Armenian side only. Grandmaster 11:03, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree, it is pretty much accepted that in ancient times Armenians and Caucasian Albanians lived there. I don't see the relevence in adding what Armenian scholars think. Anatolmethanol 00:28, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, Armenian and Azerbaijani scholars may have certain positions in this issue, but we need to report what generally accepted view is. Grandmaster 11:15, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, I think their view could be presented if we attribute their view to them. We could for exemple in this case write that several Azerbaijani scholars do not agree that Armenians ever lived there. Anatolmethanol 14:50, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

And that some Armenian scholars created "New Albania" to the South of Kura and added to it some lands from the other bank as well, pushing actual Albania to the Caspian sea shores. But this article is not about the polemics between Azerbaijani and Armenian scholars, it is about an ancient province. We can actually create an article about this dispute, but there's no need in mentioning it here. --Grandmaster 06:32, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] NK War template

Doesn't belong here. This article is about a historic province which has nothing to do with Nagorno Karabakh War. VartanM 16:34, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree. --Grandmaster 18:02, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Britannica

Britannica says nothing like what Merjanov ascribed to it in his recent edit. The article about Azerbaijan written by Ronald Suny says that Albanians came under the cultural influence of Armenians in the 4th century. However the region was politically dominated by many powers, such as Romans, Persians, Arabs, etc. At the same time Albania was an independent state for long periods of time as well, and there was no such independent state as Armenia after the 4th century. Therefore such interpretations are not acceptable. Grandmaster (talk) 18:54, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

I rewrote my statement Merjanov (talk) 00:39, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Still not accurate. Armenian cultural influence existed only in a certain period, not all the way through. There was also strong Parthian and Persian influence. Why do we need to mention influences in the very first line? Grandmaster (talk) 06:42, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

No "Albanian" culture existed or at least no (or very little) such thing survived after the Armenian dynasties from Artsakh and Utik took over Caucasian Albania. Everything known about Caucasian Albania is about the "Armenian" Albania called Aghvank. Caucasian Albania was "Albanian" as much as the German-ruled Holy Roman Empire was "Roman." Merjanov (talk) 14:12, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Not true. Albanians spoke their own language as late as the 10th century. See the following primary sources. Al-Muqaddasi wrote in 985:

В Армении говорят по-армянски, а в Арране по-аррански; когда они говорят по-персидски, то их можно понимать, а их персидский язык кое в чем напоминает хурасанский. [2]

In Armenia they speak Armenian, and in Arran Arranian; when they speak Persian, they could be understood, and their Persian somewhat resembles Khorasani.

Ibn-Hawqal wrote in 978:

Что касается до языка жителей Адербейджана и большинства жителей Армении, то это персидский и арабский, но мало кто говорит по-арабски, а, кроме того, говорящие по-персидски не понимают по-арабски. Чисто по-арабски говорят купцы, владельцы поместий, а для многих групп населения в окраинах Армении и прилежащих стран существуют другие языки, как армянский — для жителей Дабиля и области его, а жители Берда'а говорят по-аррански. [3]

As to the language of the people of Aderbeyjan and most of the people of Armenia, it is Persian and Arabic, but very few speak Arabic, besides, those who speak Persian do not understand Arabic. Fluent Arabic is spoken by merchants and landowners, and there are other languages for many population groups in the outskirts of Armenia and adjacent countries, such as Armenian for the people of Dabil and its area, and people of Berdaa speak Arranian.

Al-Istakhri wrote in 930:

Язык в Адербейджане, Армении и Арране персидский и арабский, исключая области города Дабиля: вокруг него говорят по-армянски: в стране Берда'а язык арранский. [4]

In Aderbeijan, Armenia and Arran they speak Persian and Arabic, except for the area around the city of Dabil: they speak Armenian around that city, and in the country of Barda people speak Arranian.

You can find the same info in a secondary source, the article about Arran by C. E. Bosworth in encyclopedia Iranica: [5] He writes:

Strabo 9.4, cites Theophanes of Mytilene that Albania had at least 26 different languages or dialects, and the distinctive Albanian speech persisted into early Islamic times, since Armenian and Islamic sources alike stigmatize the tongue as cacophonous and barbarous, with Estakhri, p. 192, Ebn Hawqal, p. 349, tr. Kramers-Wiet, p. 342, and Moqaddasi, p. 378, recording that al-Raniya was still spoken in the capital Barda’a or Bardaa in their time (4th/10th century).

So people of Albania/Arran spoke their own language until Turkic Oghuz tribes took over the region. Most of Albanians converted to Islam by that time and became Turkisized, and the Christian minority for the most part mixed with Armenians. But saying that no Albanian culture ever existed is wrong, Albanians had even their own script, which modern scholars unable to decipher. It is a lost civilization. Grandmaster (talk) 19:00, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

And the Oscar goes to.... VartanM (talk) 21:52, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

That "... most of Albanians converted to Islam and became Turkisized, and the Christian minority for the most part mixed with Armenians" - it is just a hypothesis pertaining to the category of original research (OR). We don't have sources from the time confirming the conversions and assimilations. But it was Mesrob Mashtots, and not Meshadi Mamedov or Ziya Buniatov, who invented the "Albanian" alphabet, and it was Mesrob Mashtots who established the first Armenian school in Artsakh in the 5th century (source: National Geographic magazine, March 2004). Later, Stephanos Siunetsi, in the 7th century re-confirms that there was "Artsakhian" dialect of the Armenian language. Arstakh has always been a cradle of Armenian culture, and "Caucasian Albania" was, effectively, an Armenian state. All "Caucasian Albanians" have Armenian names (e.g. Vachagan, Tagui, which are in use by modern Armenians). The historian of "Caucasian Albania" was - coincidentally? - an Armenian, who wrote his text in Armenian. The ruling family of Arranshahiks was said to originate from Hayk, legendary ancestor of Armenians. "Caucasian Albania" was set up by the Armenian king Vagharshak. "Albanian" church was part of the Armenians church. There are 1000s of Armenians inscriptions in Artsakh (dating from the times when St. Mesrob taught at Amaras), and none in "Caucasian Albanian." Christianity was brought to "Albania" by an Armenian, St. Gregory. There was, perhaps, a non-Armenian minority, but we don't know. And, by the way, if you admit that "Albanians" became Armenians, you directly attests to Armenian influence in "Caucasian Albania." There are dozens of books and articles discussing these facts. Your conduct resembles trolling [6]. I saw this in the article "House of Hasan-Jalalyan." Merjanov (talk) 22:41, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

That's not an original research. Even Armenian scholars admit that:

The Caucasus region has long been the scene of very serious social, religious and ethnic conflicts. Back in the Middle Ages, before the Turkish people migrated here from central Asia, eastern Transcaucasia was known as Caucasian Albania. No relation to the Balkan Albanians, these were a Christianized people quite close to the Armenians. Once the Seljuk Turks began arriving in the 11th century, the Albanians in the mountainous area – Karabagh up to historic Armenia – remained largely Christian and eventually merged with the Armenians. The Albanians in the eastern plain leading down to the Caspian Sea mixed with the Turkish population and eventually became Muslims.

Ronald G. Suny: What Happened in Soviet Armenia? Middle East Report, No. 153, Islam and the State. (Jul. - Aug., 1988), pp. 37-40.

You can check it at JSTOR here: [7]

And Albanian rulers were Parthian and Persian, and not Armenian. So were their names. Arsacids were Parthian, Mihranids were Persian. What was Armenian about them? Javanshir is certainly not an Armenian name, and it is popular with modern Azerbaijanis. The remnants of Christian Albanians in NK region became assimilated with Armenians somewhere after the 10th century (Suny believes that this happened after the 11 century, when Seljuks moved into the region), but there are still direct descendants of Albanians, i.e. Udis, who live in the village of Nij in Shirvan. This shows that Albanians were not Armenians. And keep it to the topic and refrain from making personal attacks. I'm citing sources for everything I say. It is good that you have such a good knowledge of wiki policies for a brand new user, but comments about Oscar better fit the description in wiki guidelines. Grandmaster (talk) 06:04, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Oscar was not my comment. Suny is not an expert in ancient history, and he later admitted he was wrong. He wrote a new account of Caucasian Albania in the Stone Garden Guide on Armenia and Karabagh. Don't avoid the question of why Mashtots established the Armenian school in Amaras. Vachagan abd Tagui are Armenian names, not Parthian. Yes, Albanians assimilated but not in the 10th century but in the 3rd century AD. "Albanian" is a political term, like "Bohemian," not an ethnic one. There has never been an "Albanian" ethnicity. Merjanov (talk) 14:08, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Important point here. Suny is not an anthropologist, and an ass like him does not understand that people cannot simply "merge" with other people in the absence of direct cultural influence and direct physical contact. That is why Azerbaijanis remained Turkic, despite their Muslim identity. They have not assimilated and became Arabs, have they? although Islam is much a culture-specific Arabic religion than Christianity. Armenians always lived in Artsakh, and they assimilated "Albanians" because they were a majority and your "Albanian" tribesmen were a minority. "Albanian" could not assimilate by simply becoming Armenian Christian. And why are we talking? you have already admitted that Armenians had a huge impact on "Albanians." Merjanov (talk) 14:20, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

If Albanians assimilated in the 3rd century, why Arabic sources reported in the 10th century that the language of Arran (i.e. Albania) was Arranian (Albanian), and not Armenian? Any answer to that? As for Mashtots, there are English schools in Baku, does it mean that there are no Azerbaijani people in Baku? It was a foreign language school, because the same Armenian sources that provide information about the school say that Albanians spoke their own language, which according to them was "cacophonous and barbarous". So clearly Albanians were different people which survived to our days (udis). As for impact, Romans, Persians and Arabs also had a huge impact on Albanians, which you did not mention in the intro. Grandmaster (talk) 16:16, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

"Foreign language school"? Are you saying there were as many "Albanian" schools as there are Azerbaijani schools in Baku? any texts? or extensive inscriptions? "cacophonous and barbarous" was the language of the "Albanians" who lived outside of traditional Armenian lands of Artsakh and Utik (like the tribe of Gargareans, mentions of which disappear after the reign of king Vachagan). About the "Arranian" language: well, in Azerbaijan people speak Azerbaijani (not Turkish), and if you invited the same Arabic travelers to Azerbaijan today they would tell you that people in Azerbaijan speak Azerbaijani and people in Turkey speak Turkish. But Turkish and Azerbaijani are the same language, isn't it? So (most likely) was your "Arranian" - just another Armenian dialect (the one mentioned by Stepanos S. in the 7th century?) that was as different from the mainstream Armenian as Azerbaijani is different from Turkish. Or maybe, just to salvage your argument, we may assume that there were remnants of non-Armenian "Albanians" somehow surviving around the city of Barda. Have they left any trace of their civilization? No. Any books they wrote? No. Any churches with "Albanian" letter they built? No. The same Arabic dudes, traveling in South-Eastern Asia, were reporting that there saw people there with serpentine tails and wings. Shall we believe them too? You are sticking to your sole mention of obscure Arabic dudes, disregarding the overwhelming evidence which cries out from the every page of Movses' work. This is highly a selective, revisionist minority position which has been irreversibly discredited. Is this called a POV or what? A huge body of literature is against this stance. The idea that Udis have anything to do with "Albania" is a just a hypothesis, a wrong one I think. Merjanov (talk) 01:19, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Before we continue, I want to ask you a question. Do you have anything to do with banned users User:Verjakette and User:Robert599? According to this cu you are possibly the same person as Verjakette: Wikipedia:Requests_for_checkuser/Case/Verjakette. It is also of interest that you repeated word by word the same claims as were made by User:Jalaleddin, an established sock of Robert599, which I believe is the same as Verjakette. See here, about Armeno-Albanians, no one other than that user was making the same claims: [8] Please explain these coincidences. If you are a banned user, you need to contest your block and get a permission to edit Wikipedia. So please explain what's going on. Grandmaster (talk) 06:03, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

I checked your edits with those of Jalaleddin, you are the same person making exactly the same claims. You say:

All "Caucasian Albanians" have Armenian names (e.g. Vachagan, Tagui, which are in use by modern Armenians).

Jalaleddin says:

Plus, the first names of “Caucasian Albanians” were Armenian too: Tagui, Vachagan, Marut, etc. All these and other names are in use by modern Armenians; to say more, modern Armenian widely use the name “Aghvan” as a male first name.

You say:

Arstakh has always been a cradle of Armenian culture, and "Caucasian Albania" was, effectively, an Armenian state.

Jalaleddin says:

After 387 AD “Caucasian Albania” was an Armenian land and an Armenian state for all means and purposes. That Armenian country stretched from Lake Sevan to the Caspian Sea. [9]

You say:

The ruling family of Arranshahiks was said to originate from Hayk, legendary ancestor of Armenians. "Caucasian Albania" was set up by the Armenian king Vagharshak.

Jalaleddin:

The kingdom was established by the Armenian king Vagharshak.

You say:

Later, Stephanos Siunetsi, in the 7th century re-confirms that there was "Artsakhian" dialect of the Armenian language.

Same source can be found in Jalaleddin's edit: [10]

I heard all of your arguments before, and it is getting more and more interesting, because I have a reason to believe that you were in wiki for a long time. It is not just a coincidence, you are repeating word by word everything that Jalaleddin was claiming. Grandmaster (talk) 07:39, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Hi Grandmaster, All the mentioned references are well-known facts, they are all over the Internet (especially in Armenian-written texts). I reviewed the Archives of the "Caucasian Albania," "Artsakh," "House of Hasan-Jalalyan" and many other articles and perhaps was influenced by some of the arguments made there, which you continues rejecting in a way that is against the Wiki rules. These arguments are valid irrespective of who is making them. However, everyone who reads today's Internet and the original text of Movses Kaghankatvatsi, and the works of R.Hewsen, Dowsett, Ulubabian, Buniatov and others would inevitably come to same conclusions. You should not assume bad faith, or suspect others to be socks, as you recently did in a checkuser case. Merjanov (talk) 13:52, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

CU seems to suggest that you are related to the banned user, and I have not seen anyone other than banned user Robert599 making the claims that Albania was an Armenian state. Hewsen certainly does not say so, nor do other third party sources. And the claim about the names of Tagui, Vachagan etc is exclusively yours and the banned user. The Armenian editors in Wikipedia also think that you are Verjakette, so it is not just me suspecting you. I think what you need to do is to provide your perspective here: Wikipedia:Requests_for_checkuser/Case/AdilBaguirov#Results. The administrators and editors providing evidence will be interested in your take of the situation. Grandmaster (talk) 13:57, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Are you saying that it is wrong to repeat ideas that other people have expressed? Everyone who is serious about editing Caucasian Albania, or Artsakh, sooner or later will go to discussion pages and archives, and will bump to the same set of claims that you are apparently trying to suppress. Merjanov (talk) 16:04, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

I have never seen that edits of different users matched word by word. And this is what happens here. And also, you should be aware that Armenian users User:VartanM and User:Fadix also think that you are a sock, but they believe that you are sockpuppet of User:AdilBaguirov. I saw your comment at cu, but your persona raised a lot of suspicions, and cu results allow to connect you with other people. So don't blame everything on my malicious intents, Armenian users also have their reasons to suspect you. Grandmaster (talk) 17:31, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

"Armenian influenced Caucasian Albania"? What an original research is that, with irrelevant reference provided. Over half of Armenian cuisine is Turkish, does it mean we should call Turkish-influenced Armenia? Atabek (talk) 18:46, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Your views are identical to those of Grandmaster, word by word. According to Grandmaster's logic, you are his sock. Merjanov (talk) 18:51, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

They are not, there are some minor variations :) Grandmaster (talk) 19:57, 27 February 2008 (UTC)