Talk:Art in ancient Greece

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Whether or not it was copyright, it was a lousy article anyway. I am happy to write a new one, alone or in collaboration with others who are interested in this field. Adam 03:09, 23 Mar 2004 (UTC)

In the future, please follow the directions on the copyvio notice (and do not remove the copyvio notice). The new article should have been created at Greek art/Temp so that the original could be deleted. Now we have a possible copyright violation in page history (which still exposes Wikipedia to copyright infringement since the public can still access it.) - Texture 17:21, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)

So delete it already. Adam 00:23, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)

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Is there some reason that the FaC message must be here and not on the article page? Exploding Boy 23:41, Apr 10, 2004 (UTC)

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Shouldn't there be something on the Greek art of the 2000 years since then, or at least pointers to articles on it elsewhere, given that this resides at Greek art? Perhaps Byzantine art or modern Greek art or something, since I agree the term "Greek art" in English usage commonly refers to ancient Greek art, so this article should stay as is (modulo some pointers to other material). --Delirium 10:23, Apr 22, 2004 (UTC)

I debated calling this article Art of Ancient Greece and I won't object if anyone wants to move it to that title. But I eventually decided that Greek art is the most commonly used term, since the following period is usually called Byzantine art (an article which I am gearing up to write). I suppose there is modern Greek art but I know nothing about it. Adam 13:24, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)

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i was under the impression korai were, atleast originally, non-nude. good job with this article. well-written, and i found few typos. Badanedwa 14:59, Apr 23, 2004 (UTC)

Yes of course they were. The article says that the female nude was not acceptable until the 5th century. Adam 02:59, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Were the korai "of far less artisitic importance"? I know they were of less cultural importance - to the extent that they weren't as widely comissioned or produced as kouroi - but an obvious amount of work went into the clothes, particularly the geometric patterns on early examples, and on the hairstyles and jewellery on later korai (at least the few I've seen), which I think suggests they were artisitically significant. -- Gregg 07:50, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Yes, that was a careless formulation on my part. What is of "artistic significance" is of course a subjective judgement made by art historians, not an absolute. It flows from the belief that the human form (the nude) is the highest form of artistic representation, and that therefore the kore is of less important since it made no contribution to the representation of the human form. The Greeks of course made no such judgements, and certainly not in the Archaic period. Adam 09:01, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Contents 1 Lack of References 2 Bronze Sculpture 3 Known world 4 More Modern Greek Art 5 Adam Carr is literally an "iconoclast" 5.1 3D gallery 6 another tourist-grade photo 7 Taxonomy 8 Greek Art 9 Requested move 9.1 Discussion 10 ancient greek art 11 Suggestion of new child page 12 "Ancient" Greece? -- er, Bronze Age? 13 Painting 14 Greek art talkpage 15 New painting section

[edit] Lack of References

Where are the references to the sources used for material in this article? Without references and proper citation, it could simply be made up out of thin air. If it was in fact written from personal knowledge then it should still be confirmed with as many of the most reliable sources in the field as possible. This article is improving again, so it might as well be the best that is possible. - Taxman 14:47, Dec 13, 2004 (UTC)

It was written from the accumulated knowledge of an author (me) who has a doctorate in history, has been reading Greek history for thirty years and has travelled in Greece. Encyclopaedias are supposed to be authoritative references in and of themselves. When people read the Greek Art article in the Britannica, they don't find references, and they don't expect to, because they accept the Britannica as an authoritative source. Nor do they in Collier's or Funk & Wagnall's (go check, I just did). At the Britannica they get a bibliography, at the others nothing but the author's initials. If Wikipedia is a genuine encyclopaedia, it shouldn't need references. (I agree the article could use a bibliography.) If you disagree with any statement in the article, you are free to edit it, then we can debate the point. Adam 15:19, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)

It seems surprising that you, an academian, would argue against references. The fact that Britannica or other encyclopedias don't list references and cite sources makes them less authoritative and reliable, not more. Why should we be restricted by what they do? Further, Brittanica is a physical, ivory tower institution that has a long history, all of which adds to their credibility. Wikipedia has none of that, and many critics feel that Wikipedia can never be reliable. The only way to counter that is with citing the best sources available. Think of it, without references a critic could claim all of the material is entirely made up, or at the least, that much of it is wrong. Why not head the challenge off at the pass and reference it upfront?

You say you are a PhD and authoritative, but anyone can claim that. If you really are a well known, authoritative source, then perhaps you could add your real name and qualifications as a reference in the article. If not, then it is better to stand on the most respected sources in the field. Of course your contributions are welcome, but properly referencing the article would make it even better. I am more than willing to help, but I have not the slightest idea what are the best sources in this field. You would be most qualified to decide that. - Taxman 16:18, Dec 13, 2004 (UTC)

• If Wikipedia lacks credibility (and I agree it does) it not because its articles are not footnoted liked undergraduate essays. It is because it allows far too many anonymous cranks to write and edit articles.

• While there is some merit to that position, it doesn't seem likely to change soon. And in any case not allowing anonymous people to edit won't entirely solve the credibility issue. It's not the panacea you seem to think it is. For one, lots of people that have PhD's are cranks too. So credibility is about a web of trust. Using trusted sources and citing them goes a long ways towards that. By the way, you use a lot of straw man arguments, undergraduate essays are besides the point. Journal articles and high level academic works are cited too, and for a reason. - Taxman 00:26, Dec 14, 2004 (UTC)

• I do indeed use my real name here, as I believe all editors should be required to do, and my qualifications are at my user page. Wikipedia policy is however against signing articles, and indeed this is not "my" article since anyone can edit it.
• Obviously we disagree about how encyclopaedia articles ought to be presented. I believe the Britannica (and all the other encyclopaedias I have ever used, which is a lot) are right in believing that encyclopaedias articles do not need footnotes, and you are wrong, but we will have to agree to disagree.

• The curious thing to me is why. Brittanica and other encyclopedias that pay a staff are completely different from Wikipedia. That gives them an automatic credibility and Wikipedia will never get that without referencing. Even if you don't feel like doing it yourself, do you really think an article is not improved and more trustworthy and reliable if it cites and uses the best available sources, vs one guy's take on something? - Taxman 00:26, Dec 14, 2004 (UTC)

• I agree the article needs a bibliography. I will try to add one. In the meantime you are free to edit the article in any way you like. Adam 23:06, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)

• Please do. I'm certainly willing to help, I just don't know this subject in depth. So my most valuable contribution is encouraging others that are able to do the needed work. - Taxman 00:26, Dec 14, 2004 (UTC)

If Wikipedia lacks credibility, no amount of footnotes will give it credibility. If I can make up my article out thin air, I can also make up footnotes. Do you check footnotes in other Wikipedia articles back to source? If I cited Greek art: its Development, Character and Influence by Robert Cook, would you check that such a book existed? Or that I had cited it correctly? I don't think so - if you had the time and expertise to do so, you wouldn't need an encyclopaedia. An encyclopaedia gains credibility only by publishing articles which people find through experience to be accurate. Wikipedia has a long way to go in that regard, but I am trying to make a contribution. Adam 01:12, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Of course references can be made up, but the point is it is much more difficult to both make up incorrect text and fake references than it is to just make up fake text. And having the references makes it much easier to either verify the material or that the citations are fraudulent. Yes in fact I do check that books cited exist and click on external links used as sources, or papers available online to check that it corresponds to the article. Not all the time but I do for some featured article candidates for example. Point is not every reader has to do that for an article, only one does if done thoroughly. That is a huge difference. If you cite a statement to a book and that is not in there it makes it very easy to cast a doubt over the rest of the material and at the very least make it known that a thorough review is required. If you never cite any statements to sources that is much harder and much less likely to be done. But like I said, it only takes one person knowledgeable about a subject and familiar with a source to call BS on a citation. Its not that hard for one person out of a 100,000 that read an article to go to the library and see if a source really stated that. Its very easy to see if a source exits. For example that book above carries ISBN 0140146784 in one version and is available here. Additionally I see my local library has a copy that I could go get in about 5 minutes. - Taxman 02:32, Dec 14, 2004 (UTC)

And Wikipedia is in its infancy. One thing it has proven is that people will contribute material, much of it surprisingly valid. Eventually some or all of the pretty good part of the material can be put through a formal review process. That could involve checking the sources and verifying them thoroughly. In the meantime, well referenced articles are a big step. - Taxman 02:32, Dec 14, 2004 (UTC)ede

[edit] Bronze Sculpture

I slightly edited the caption under the photo of the bronze sculture. It had said that the sculpture was definitely Poseidon; this is uncertain. Experts are reasonably sure that it is either Zeus or Poseidon, but are ultimately uncertain which is represented. I changed the caption to reflect this.--MS

[edit] Known world

I think this clarification of 'known world' is useful to have - which user Brian0918 did here [1] but was reverted, which I have restored Cfitzart 00:31, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] More Modern Greek Art

Anyone care to help me add some new material about artists such as vryzakis et al? --GreekWarrior 22:31, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

This article is about Art in Ancient Greece. We also have an article on Byzantine Art. If you want to write an acticle on Art in modern Greece you are free to do so. But not here. Adam 04:53, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

I have made Greek art a disambig so that people looking for modern greek art dont get directed here Cfitzart 11:13, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Adam Carr is literally an "iconoclast"

He tossed out some remarkable 3D "compatible" images that really illustrate "ancient art" in a very effective way. He brags about all the edits he makes. This seems to be a person driven by "quantity" rather than "quality". He calls these images "horrible" without seeing them in 3D, which millions of student age people, are equipped to view. These are the "horrible 3D images". If you have even cheap paper glasses open these images and see a very impressive visual.69.109.42.36 04:12, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

And truly horrible they are too. Abuse of other editors will not win you any debates here. Adam 04:30, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

In general, few people would put 3D glasses on to read Wikipedia, which makes such images rather inappropriate for the main text (they are indeed quite a nuisance when you don't have your 3D glasses nearby). How about listing them at the bottom of the page inside a gallery tag? ... Looks like this... PHG 13:33, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

If they are go in a gallery they need proper captions to say exactly what they are of, from what period, in which museums they are now located etc. These captions are like something out of a children's magazine. Adam 16:23, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

I think the 3D images ought to have a small thumb They really look good, especially a macro shot I saw on the Sutton Hoo mask at the British Museum recently on line. My kids love to see dinosaur images in class with the glasses. The plastic ones work best. NASA is going to orbit the sun with two 3D cameras in a few months for 2 years. That will get a lot of glasses out there. Cybele 00:18, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia is an adult encyclopaedia, not an amusement for children. These are standard tourist-generic images, no better or worse than millions of others. They convey no useful information to readers, and they look horrible. I will continue to delete them from this article. Even if they are to go on a separate gallery page, they need proper captions. Adam 05:42, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 3D gallery

Greek glazed ceramics. posted in Anachrome "compatible 3D"

Silver platter, posted in "compatible" 3D

Chariot horse of Selene from facade of the Parthenon in 3D.

Greek goldsmith's intricate creation in 3D

[edit] another tourist-grade photo

Hello, I don't know the first thing about Greek art, but I am collecting images for Frieze group and got this on a visit to the Museum of Fine Arts, Boston. Thought someone here might like it.

Dmharvey 02:23, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Taxonomy

I'm rather surprised at the elision of the Archaic period with the Geometric. If we're not going to make that distinction should we given some space to a justification of why every art reference book and historian of the period is wrong?Twospoonfuls 14:34, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Sarcasm is a very tired and overused rhetorical device here. If you want to edit the article, go ahead. I have just reverted six months' worth of junk edits so if you actually know something about the subject you are more than welcome. Adam 14:48, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Having said that, my (rather distant) recollection is that the geometric is a period of pottery, rather than of Greek art as a whole, and that chronologically it is a period within the archaic. Correct me if I'm wrong. Adam 14:50, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry if that came across as pissy. The Geometric period is mostly to do with vase painting but there is decorative metal work from the period and, possible votive, terrcotta figurines. As for Geometric being a movement within Archaic I think it would be an ambitious thesis to suggest there's a stylistic continuity between the Dipylon master the Berlin painter - but I'd gladly hear it out if you are positing one. Therefore I don't want to start an edit war if we can't agree on such basic terms of reference.Twospoonfuls 15:18, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm not positing anything. I was expressing an opinion on a subject I haven't read much on for some years. A quick look at a reference (Cook, Greek Art) suggests you are correct. He gives proto-geometric 1050-900, geometric 900-750, archaic 750-500, classical 500-330, hellenistic 330-27. Ancora imparo. Adam 15:38, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Greek Art

I have created a Greek Art page, much to Adam Carr's disgust, which includes stubs of Ancient/Byzantine/Modern Greek Art.

Help would be greatly appreciated. HEIL! --GreekWarrior 17:18, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] ancient greek art

they need more info on ALLLL of this stuff so kids with homework can get it done!!! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.217.27.134 (talk) 00:28, 13 February 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Suggestion of new child page

I'd like to suggest that there be a seperate main article for Sculpture of ancient Greece. The pages Classical sculpture and this one are useful introductions but don't, I believe, go into sufficent detail. I'd appreciate everyone's comments. Twospoonfuls 13:09, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

• I've deleted what appeared to me to be an anonymous reshuffle of existing material. Has aything of value been lost? --Wetman 00:37, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Ancient" Greece? -- er, Bronze Age?

This is an article about "Art in classical Greece", not art in ancient Greece. The earliest date in the text, as far as I can see, is 1050 BCE, though there are random illustrations of a Helladic and even a Minoan (i.e. non-Greek) vase. Either the article should be re-named in accordance with the infobox -- which specifies "Classical art" -- or the broader context should be made clear. In particular, there is no way for a reader to find his/her way from this article to, say, the Helladic article.

"Ancient" certainly includes the Bronze Age. One possible solution would be to refer to the Bronze Age as "prehistoric" as opposed to "ancient"; but that definitely will not work, considering how much textual evidence has been discovered from the Bronze Age Mediterranean in the last couple of decades ("prehistoric" has been pushed back by a good millennium).

[edit] Painting

There's no reference to fresco or panel painting whatsoever? Any objection if we change that? athinaios 17:24, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

That absolutely has to be in this article. --Akhilleus (talk) 17:28, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Because there isn't any? It's discussed briefly in survival; it's probably worth some kind of heading, but as nothing survives I'm not sure we're goingto find any reliable criticism...I'm putting in a link to the ancient greek painer cat anyhow, that should help...Bridesmill 20:18, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Even though very little ancient Greek wall painting has survived, there's still some, and there's also a body of ancient testimonia about Greek painting--this is enough to inspire a decent body of modern scholarship, so there's definitely stuff to cite. --Akhilleus (talk) 20:42, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

It might be assumed to be so, but a search on EBSCOHOST reveals 4 scholarly article which discuss painting in ancient greece. One is exclusively vase-painting, one is a book review, and then there's "New Pedagogy on Ancient Pederasty. By: Verstraete, Beert. Gay & Lesbian Review Worldwide, ", and

"Psychological Implications of the History of Realistic Depiction: Ancient Greece, Renaissance Italy and CGI. By: Kozbelt, Aaron. Leonardo," which is more about CGI than anything else. If you have access to a 'decent body'; feel free to either ad some work or provide some refs we can look up, and if you have some images of said survivals, that would help too.Bridesmill 20:54, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Bridesmill, there's definitely more out there. This review is one starting-point (you need JSTOR access for the link). Searches on individual artists or topics like Polygnotus, Cnidian Lesche, or Macedonian tomb painting will probably turn up useful sources. The Oxford Classical Dictionary has a long entry on "painting, Greek", and lists V.J. Bruno, Form and Colour in Greek Painting and C.M. Robertson, A History of Greek Art as sources. Sadly, I don't have any images to provide. --Akhilleus (talk) 21:22, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Can you give me a ref? JSTOR login page without a doc title/cite doesn't do me much good as all I have access from at home is EBSCO. Is there any reason if you have all these refs that you can't do some of the work?Bridesmill 23:04, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

K.W. Arafat, Classical Review 47 (1997) 391-392--this is a review of S.B. Matheson, Polygnotos and Vase Painting in Classical Athens (Madison, 1996). I don't "have all these refs", I find the citations through index searches. If I get some time, I'll be happy to contribute to this article, but I have a long list of other articles I want to work on first (and I doubt I'll get to them anytime soon, I average about 8 edits per day). --Akhilleus (talk) 04:55, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks; but note that's 'vase painting' again...like you I'll stick this topic on my todo list, but it may take a while.Bridesmill 13:14, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Polygnotos was a wall painter, actually; his (possible) influence on vase painting, etc. is something that's gotten a lot of attention, but Twospoonfuls is right about what an odd enterprise it is... --Akhilleus (talk) 16:38, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Ancient Greek Painting and Its Echoes in Later Art by Stelios Lydakis; a whole study on a non-existant subject - Borges would love that! Ancient G. Painting and the influence of the various schools are also discussed in Robinson's A Shorter History of Greek Art. Twospoonfuls 15:20, 4 November 2007 (UTC) Thanks, will add Pollitt's The Art of Ancient Greece: Sources and Documents to thelist as well.Bridesmill 16:36, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Wow, my question elicited a lot of response in just a day... Good stuff.

My own tuppence-worth:

A) If the statement "there isn't any" were true, it would still be important to mention those forms of art here, as they were considered important in antiquity, and their absence from the material record is in itself noteworthy. After all, painters like Apelles were much more famous than any vase-painters (vase painting is not discussed even once in Classical literature).

B) Thankfully, the statement is not true anyway. Although most ancient Greek painting is lost, some examples do survive.

• Fresco painting: Rarely preserved, but not entirely absent. 7th century BC frescoes in the temple at Kalapodi. 4th century ones at Vergina (see here). Also, Roman frescoes, especially the well-known material from Pompeii, are normally considered to be essentially late Hellenistic, and to be derived from Greek precedents (this raises the question where or when "Ancient Greece" actually stops).
• Polychromy. The colouring of architecture and most statuary is essentially a form of painting, and was, as we know from, say, the Temple of Aphaia, distinctive enough to be seen as a technique and style of art in its own right.
• Panel painting. Apparently considered the highest form of painting in Antiquity. The 6th century Pitsa panels survive. Also, the famous Fayum mummy portraits, although geographically Egyptian and chronologically Roman, are normally seen as the result of a Hellenistic tradition.

athinaios 17:44, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

There's also the painted terracotta metopes from the Temple of Apollo at Thermon, from the 7th century. See here: [2]. --Akhilleus (talk) 17:51, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

I think I'd leave Mycenaean wall paintings out of this article. If we leave them in, we'd have to mention not only Orchomenos, but also Thebes, Mycenae, Tiryns, and Pylos, probably Dimini, too. Also, we'd also have to include the Minoan ones, with dozens of sites... athinaios 00:25, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Huh? These metopes are from the 7th century, not Mycenaean. Or were you talking about something else? --Akhilleus (talk) 01:09, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

My mistake. Sorry. I did not mean to refer to Thermon by that comment. athinaios 01:27, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Greek art talkpage

I'm confused. When I click on the discussion link from the Greek art article, I end up here, on the Art in ancient Greece talkpage. Is that correct? athinaios 18:05, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. Therev was a redirect, presumably from the time before the two topics were separated. I Removed it. athinaios 18:14, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New painting section

I've been so bold as to add a new section on painting. I wasn't sure where to put it, so I placed it at the bottom, under the coin section. I hope that's ok? athinaios 01:33, 5 November 2007 (UTC)