User:Arnoutf/Dutchv

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Contents 1 As it is on the page now (please do not edit version below) 1.1 Dutch views on others 1.2 Proposed alternative (1) 1.3 Alternative text by Rex

[edit] As it is on the page now (please do not edit version below)

[edit] Dutch views on others

{{sectNPOV}} Despite centuries of relations between the Netherlands and the British Isles, including fighting some of the most destructive wars in their respective histories against each other, most Dutch people feel ambivalent towards the British. British people (who most Dutch people will call "English") are viewed as being a bit quaint and old fashioned, even though Anglophone television programmes and English literature in general are held in high regard. Typically Americans are thought to be principally "good" people but somewhat uneducated and badly guided by their politicians. While France and Italy are seen as beautiful countries, ideal for holidays, their inhabitants are somewhat frowned upon. The French are considered to be easily agitated, talkative and shallow as well as obstructionists, intolerant, and lack skills at negotiating.^[1] The Italians (as most, if not all, people living around the Mediterranean) have a positive image but are regarded as being too emotional. In Dutch society, extravagantly flaunting ones emotions (whether positive or negative) is seen as lack of control. Peoples and cultures who are disapproved of or looked down upon are those whose religious or political customs are seen as intolerant, such cultures with a taboo on regarding men and women as equals.^[2] Of all European nations, the Swiss generally are admired most. Their country is described as being "spotless" and the people as "keeping to themselves" a trait shared with the Dutch.^[3]

Special cases are the Germans and Belgians. For many years, most recently since WWII, a strong animosity existed towards Germans. They were said to be rude, arrogant, noisy and intolerant and in fact most other antonyms of characteristics the Dutch pride themselves on. This is mostly without knowing these German people personally. For many Dutch people it was not a question of "why" they disliked Germans, they just did. According to "The Xenophobe's Guide to the Dutch", "Telling a Dutch person that their language seems very similar to German is unlikely to benefit your relationship. Remarking that the two nations are similar in many ways will probably get you thrown out of the house." Perhaps strangely, Germans are generally unaware of the fact that they are disliked by their neighbours and often think it is merely a soccer phenomenon when the anti-German feelings are most visible, as the Dutch and Germans have had fierce soccer rivalry ever since the Second World War. Although the post war rivalry on Germany's side is actually a reaction on the behaviour displayed by the Dutch^[4], Dutch antipathy towards Germans goes back to the early 15th century when Germans were seen as uneducated, grumpy peasants who served as cheap labour to the wealthier Dutch.^{[5] [6]}

Over the last year (2006) a remarkable shift has been observed in attitude towards Germans. Another reason may be that the newer, younger generation does not have the emotional ties to past events.^[7]

Belgians on the other hand have an entirely different image, they feature prominently in Dutch jokes in which they are often portrayed as being stupid and uneducated but this is commonly accepted to be a completely made up stereotype, originating at the time of the Belgian Revolution, in which the Flemish and Walloons seceded from the Netherlands. Generally they are admired for their educational and health system. Most if not all Dutch people consider the Belgians to be the closest related people. It should however be noted that the Dutch, when they speak of Belgians, nearly always mean the Flemish (the Dutch speaking inhabitants of Belgium) rather than the Walloons whom most hardly know.^[8]

[edit] Proposed alternative (1)

Add or discuss changes here

Thanks for taking this initiative, Arnoutf. Well as mentioned on the talk page, I consider the points of view section silly, unencyclopedic, silly and downright silly. If we must have a point of view section, I advise to keep it to our direct neighbors only for which there must be plenty of sources available. The opinions on other nations come across as "kort door de bocht" and look like original research to me. Dennnnis 14:37, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't think that "silly" qualifies as a good argument and it's been explained to you many times before that this information isn't original research. The farthest I want to go on this is make the text more formal.Rex 14:58, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Silly as in plain dumb, yes it is a good argument. And it is already explained to you that the source you consider scientific is actually not. The following claims need a ref before the text is without orginal research. Dennnnis 16:11, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Despite centuries of relations between the Netherlands and the British Isles, including fighting some of the most destructive wars in their respective histories against each other, most Dutch people feel ambivalent towards the British ^{[citation needed]} (who most Dutch people will call "English" ^{[citation needed]}) Anglophone television programmes and English literature in general are held in high regard ^{[citation needed]}. Typically Americans are thought to be principally "good" people but somewhat uneducated and badly guided by their politicians.^{[citation needed]}

In Dutch society, extravagantly flaunting ones emotions (whether positive or negative) is seen as lack of control or even as having a psychological disorder. ^{[citation needed]} Exaggeration for humor's sake by the Undutchables is considered scientific research by you?

For many years, most recently since WWII, a strong animosity existed towards Germans. They were said to be rude, arrogant, noisy and intolerant and in fact most other antonyms of characteristics the Dutch pride themselves on ^{[citation needed]}. For many Dutch people it is not a question of "why" they dislike Germans, they just do ^{[citation needed]}. According to "The Xenophobe's Guide to the Dutch", "Telling a Dutch person that their language seems very similar to German is unlikely to benefit your relationship. Remarking that the two nations are similar in many ways will probably get you thrown out of the house." ^{[citation needed]} Hyperbole is another season why Xenophbe is useless as a source.

Belgians on the other hand have an entirely different image, they feature prominently in Dutch jokes in which they are often portrayed as being stupid and uneducated but this is commonly accepted to be a completely made up stereotype ^{[citation needed]}, originating at the time of the Belgian Revolution, in which the Flemish and Walloons seceded from the Netherlands.

Generally they are admired for their educational and health system ^{[citation needed]}. Most, if not all, Dutch people consider the Belgians to be the closest related people. It should however be noted that the Dutch, when they speak of Belgians, nearly always mean the Flemish (the Dutch speaking inhabitants of Belgium) rather than the Walloons whom most hardly know.[14] ^{[citation needed]} More 'natte vingerwerk' by Xenophobe Dennnnis 11:18, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Trying to degrade Xenophobe, Onbekende Buren and the Undutchables or the Guide to the Dutch will not help you here, the section is referenced, wether you like it or not.Rex 22:12, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

You consider some paper's opinion piece a sound source, so your opinion on what constitutes a trustable reference is moot. I don't have to "degrade" those pseudo sources either way. If my faculty don't consider Xenophobe and Undutchables reputable sources, I wouldn't see why they should on an encyclopdia.

But sources alone isn't even the major problem. The content itself is ridiculous. The Dutch consider the Italians..., the Dutch consider the Americans... Completely unencyclopedic. Dennnnis 11:24, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Just because you don't like the content doesn't mean it isn't referenced. I already said I'm willing to relavate much of it, but I'm not going to delete it. You can shout "nattevingerwerk" al you want, it isn't going to happen, this is referenced and interesting material.Rex 14:15, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

This has probably been pointed out to you before, but you are stubborn to the point of pigheadedness. The content may be interesting for a VWO-3 sociology paper, but for an actual encyclopedia it is preposterous. You leave me no choice but to hunt you down and set your military stamp collection on fire. In the meantime, Arnoutf may reflect his enlightened views on the content and referencing of the disputed section. Dennnnis 15:07, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Do you ever say something useful and constructive rather than making akward word combinations?Rex 15:28, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Aww, you have to resort to insults to cover the fact that your arguments are without merit. Cute. My English is just fine, my arguments are even better. Better than yours anyway. Dennnnis 15:51, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't resort to insults, nor did I make a remark on your English. But if this is your style of discussing then I doubt you'll get much done around here. Rex 15:56, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

My "style of discussing" is not at stake here. Your attempt at sourcing is though. In case it needs repeating, so far I have pointed out that opinion pieces and hyperbolic, satirical books are not valid sources, and that the entire section is a high school essay at best. Instead of going in circles I will wait what others have to say on this subject. Dennnnis 16:16, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

And I say the information is valid and sourced. Trying to bash the work of others, as you continually do, isn't going to get you anywhere. I've made my offers, take it or leave it.Rex 16:20, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

"Trying to bash the work of others, as you continually do"

I'm sorry. I said I would wait for others to respond, but this is just absurd. Like it or not, I criticize this section for valid reasons, and I haven't "bashed" anyone here (let alone continually). In fact this is my first major discussion with another editor. Nice try.

I understand you put some time in this section, and I'm not criticizing you personally. I do however consider the section unencyclopedic and want it (partially) removed. Dennnnis 16:53, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

I never said you bash persons, I said you bash their work , and you do do that, like I said, continually. I told you I was willing to make the current information more encyclopedic, I refuse to remove referenced information.Rex 16:59, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Anytime now, Arnoutf. Dennnnis 16:36, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Alternative text by Rex

Despite centuries of relations between the Netherlands and the British Isles, including fighting some of the most destructive wars in their respective histories against each other, most Dutch people feel ambivalent towards the British (who most Dutch people will call "English") Anglophone television programmes and English literature in general are held in high regard. Typically Americans are thought to be principally "good" people but somewhat uneducated and badly guided by their politicians.

The Dutch are, compared to most other cultures, rather reserved in public and do not often touch each other or display anger or extreme exuberance. This is why people and cultures who display these "vices", for example those living around the mediteranian, are regarded as being too emotional. In Dutch society, extravagantly flaunting ones emotions (whether positive or negative) is seen as lack of control or even as having a psychological disorder.^[1]

Dutch people judge a foreign culture by comparing it to their own, cultures whose religious or political customs are seen as intolerant (compared to Dutch standards) are looked down upon.^[2]

For many years, most recently since WWII, a strong animosity existed towards Germans. They were said to be rude, arrogant, noisy and intolerant and in fact most other antonyms of characteristics the Dutch pride themselves on. For many Dutch people it is not a question of "why" they dislike Germans, they just do. According to "The Xenophobe's Guide to the Dutch", "Telling a Dutch person that their language seems very similar to German is unlikely to benefit your relationship. Remarking that the two nations are similar in many ways will probably get you thrown out of the house."

Perhaps strangely, Germans are generally unaware of the fact that they are disliked by their neighbours and often think it is merely a soccer phenomenon, as this is when the anti-German feelings are most visible. The Dutch and Germans have had fierce soccer rivalry ever since the Second World War, eventhough the post war rivalry on Germany's side is actually a reaction on the behaviour displayed by the Dutch.^[3]

Dutch antipathy towards Germans goes back to the early 15th century when Germans were seen as uneducated, grumpy peasants who served as cheap labour to the wealthier Dutch.^{[4] [5]}

Belgians on the other hand have an entirely different image, they feature prominently in Dutch jokes in which they are often portrayed as being stupid and uneducated but this is commonly accepted to be a completely made up stereotype, originating at the time of the Belgian Revolution, in which the Flemish and Walloons seceded from the Netherlands.

Generally they are admired for their educational and health system. Most, if not all, Dutch people consider the Belgians to be the closest related people. It should however be noted that the Dutch, when they speak of Belgians, nearly always mean the Flemish (the Dutch speaking inhabitants of Belgium) rather than the Walloons whom most hardly know.^[6]