Talk:Armenian national awakening

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This article survived a vote for deletion. The debate was closed on October 14, 2006, after a concensus was not reached after 5 days. You can peruse the debate here.

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[edit] Comments

Contents

[edit] Extremely Pro-Turkish Article

This article is extremely pro-Turkish point of view. The sources are few without giving any sources on some of the important issues. It doesn't even consider the opposite side of view (Armenian side). Also it avoinds talking about the Armenian Genocide only mentioning twice without and details. This article was the most POW article I have ever countered. If there was an articel like this that was pro-Armenian it would be bombardet with people asking for deletion. This articel should have more information from the opposite side of view, but not only from one view. I am not saying there was no Armenian revolt but in the articel it never mentions the real reason (it only gives pro-Turkish reasons for the revolt) and how Turkey responded and after it was ended how Turkey continued to pressure and revange which led to many other problems with the Armenian populaton. ROOB323 08:59, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Agreed with ROOB, this article needs some serious cleaning or possibly a merger with Armenian national liberation movement. I question even the name of the title "Armenian rebellions" as I did a search on google and almost all the links that came up were Turkish. Anyone have a suggestion for a more neutral title? Plus I would like to add that the picture that is on top of the page suits more to be in the Armenian national liberation movement article simply because of the title which reads "Liberty of Death" ...liberty - liberation. - Fedayee 14:53, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
What exactly seems to be problem? As for the name, how about Armenian Revolts or Armenian Insurgency or Armenian Terrorist Operations or Armenian Uprisings or Diaspora Funded Destructive and Divisive Operations or Armenian Treason or Armenian Land Grab Attempts or The Armenian Betrayal or Armenian Alliance with Enemies of the Ottoman State or Armed aArmenian Aggression of Toward Unarmed Civilians in the Ottoman Empire, and so on? I like treason myself. How about you guys? --Oguz1 19:12, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Oguz1 go ahead and try changing the name to those names you listed above and see if you will be successful adding all those POV and nationalist information to the article. ROOB323 20:13, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Oguz1 Wikipedia is not the place to spread your misinformed and vile propaganda. If you wish to preach hate, take it elsewhere.
Dear Rooby, if the title is "Armenian Uprising" should be an appropriate title, actually. I think that the armed Armenian struggle for a separate state (Marxist, in fact) began in 1887, in Switzerland. If the article is to be named National Awakening, it should include non-terrorist and pro-Ottoman Armenian activities and personalities as well.{{Cliobella (talk) 20:18, 15 January 2008 (UTC)}}

[edit] Itemized list of disbutes!

The person who added the dispute also has to ITEM by ITEM needs to prove that dispute is based on some facts not to POV. Thanks...--OttomanReference 14:33, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Be specific. --Oguz1 19:13, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Should Be Updated & Renamed "The Armenian Revolt"

I think this page should be entitled the Armenian Revolt as that is the most popular and widely accepted title for this event. Although, I guess many historians would title the final uprising and intercommunal conflicts between 1914 and 1922 as the Armenian Revolt. Even if that is the case, I think this page needs to be updated to include the Van Revolt of 1915 and the intercommunal warfare leading up to the Russian occupation of Eastern Turkey and the forced relocations (Tehcir) of Ottoman Armenians in rebel zones up and until the founding of the Turkish republic when warfare between Armenian militants and Turkish militias ceased. Either way, I think this page should be retitled Armenian Revolt. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 205.148.53.200 (talk) 15:00, 11 April 2007 (UTC).

Hmm, it seems to me that the "Armenian Revolt" is not the most popular term, but it is academically accurate. Cliobella (talk) 20:20, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] name change

I changed this name to more accurately reflect content, in par see Bulgarian counterpart.Hetoum I 22:51, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] One entry too many?

The content of this entry (Armenian_national_awakening_in_the_Ottoman_Empire), andArmenian_nationalism and Armenian_national_movement are all related to each other and share common content. Maybe thre is one entry to many, and some mergeing should occur? My problem with this entry as it stands is, why is it restricted to the Ottoman Empire, and why does it presuppose that only form and purpose of Armenian nationalism / national identity/ national awakening (or whatever) is the striving for an independent Armenia? Meowy 22:03, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Is Armenian nationalism limited with what you say "the striving for an independent Armenia?" Don't you think, merging can decrease or at best limit the significance of the Armenian nationalism? Ottoman Empire is gone, but Armenian nationalism survived, right? There has to be something more to it than the Ottomans. This article seems to be limited with the national awakening of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire and is a sub article of rise of nationalism under the Ottoman Empire. I liked the idea that I can compare national awakening of Bulgaria with this article. The title is very significant and interesting. Isn't it worth to keep it? Besides, Armenian national awakening is not limited with the Ottoman Empire, or is it? What about post Soviet era? Doesn't it require its own article? All these articles should have a link under the page Armenian nationalism, instead of one and only one page. -+0+ Bestlyric (talk) 11:46, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
You haven't properly read what I said! I think Armenian nationalism is NOT limited to "the striving for an independant Armenia" and I was being critical of the current content of this entry because it seems to think it is limited to just that. The entry as it stands is artificially limited (it conciously excludes parallel trends and events within the Russian Empire that are needed to fully understand the topic) and invites propaganda (for example, the national awakening of Bulgaria entry is not called "National awakening of Bulgarians in the Ottoman Empire". I am going to propose that this entry be renamed "Armenian National Awakening" and it be merged with the "Armenian Nationalism" entry. Meowy 21:10, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
"National awakening of Bulgaria" do not have "the Ottoman Empire" as Bulgarians were living within the Ottoman Empire. This is not true for the Armenians. The current location of Armenia is not within the Ottoman Empire. In the turn of the 19th century Armenians were living among three Empires. Each Empire had unique social structure and path to social awakening. "Artificially limited" is a very hard critique, given the fact that huge literature limited to Ottoman Empire already exists. Besides the Ottoman Empire, they were in Russia, Persia and France. Given the poor condition of the article "Armenian Nationalism", I have hard time understanding your motivation. I have not seen any significant work to develop that article. I would like to see that specific article being fully developed, first. So that I can see with my own eyes if "Nationalism" (beginning to now) and "National Awaking in the Ottoman Empire" (1980s-1922) are same and it is valid to merge these articles. Bestlyric (talk) 00:56, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
I'll support the renaming and the merger. VartanM (talk) 02:43, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
I checked the history of the article. The name of the article was changed by Hetoum I to it's current from. VartanM didn't had that alias before? Hetoum I seems to changed his mind. I'm the only one defending the rich form of Armenian nationalism. Virtually the end of this nation. Bestlyric (talk) 14:02, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
I don't know what you mean by "rich form of Armenian nationalism". You are wrong to suggest that the processes that went on within the 3 empires were unconnected, they were far more alike than they were un-alike, and what happened in Russia would influence what happened in Turkey (and vice versa).
The reason I've been reluctant to add more content to the "Armenian Nationalism" entry is because I've been unhappy with its title. "Armenian national awakening" is a far better title to contain most of the contents of that entry, and would avoid one of the bones of contention within that article (whether Armenian nationalism pre-dates the modern period). The stuff I have added (such as the info about Armenian educational institutions, and the political responses to the Treaty of Berlin) would be best placed in an article that dealt with Armenians in both Turkey and Russia. There is also the fact that this is an encyclopedia - articles should be concise and avoid duplication: at the moment we have 3 very similar articles that have a lot of duplicated material. Meowy 17:57, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
BTW, I had a look at the rise of nationalism under the Ottoman Empire, and was not impressed. Much of it is propaganda and lies: "Bosniak" is an artificial word coined in the 1990s; there was no "Kurdish rebellion" in 1834: it was a Kurdish Moslem Jihad to exterminate the local Nestorian Christian population; and of course there it is again, repeated again, the old Turkish lie that any expression of Armenian ethnicicy is a prelude to rebellion (and should thus be oppressed): "Armenian national awakening in the Ottoman Empire was the section of "Armenian national liberation movement" of the Armenian effort to re-establish an Armenian state". Meowy 18:12, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
Dear Meowy, I agree with your position that the article is limited in context to only hard-liner Armenian politics. I thinking about adding distinctive characters, such as the Armenian CUP members and the Balian family who were contributing much to the Ottoman culture at the time. What do you think? {{Cliobella (talk) 20:13, 15 January 2008 (UTC)}}
By the way, Hnchak page clearly states that they were using terror for separatist purposes. That's a bit more than an "expression of Armenian ethnicity", don't you think? {{Cliobella (talk) 20:13, 15 January 2008 (UTC)}}