Talk:Armenia (name)

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[edit] merge, de-crankify

this apparently belongs merged into Armenians#Origins. It seems to be a disparate collections of sound-alikes of "Armani", sprinkled with mystical nonsense about "AR = Aryan = GOD" and whatnot. Uniting these various inscriptions into a tangible ethnicity, "blond-haired, and blue-eyed in appearance" no less, seems to be utterly confused fringecruft. Attribute to credible sources and discuss on Armenians in context. dab (𒁳) 19:16, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

I would like to explain about the root word "AR" from sources, like the book of Jubilees, where it says: "And 'Ur, the son of Keśed, built the city of 'Ara of the Chaldees, and called its name after his own name and the name of his father. (Jubilees 11:3) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ur#Biblical_Ur

If Ur is Ar or Ara(which is a common Armenian name by the way) in Semetic?? Why is it that you dont understand the root word "Ar" means light, sun, fire in Armenian, and in Indo-European in fact. So if Ur means light, sun, fire in Semitic, like Hebrew ?? Why dont you understand that the IE root AR means light, sun, or fire. Here is the link with the Hebrew in case you dont understand the same root word means the same thing: http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/16_english.html

So as I said AR means light, fire, or sun in Armenian, like Arev means Sun, or Areg. The word for God in Armenian is Ararich (also Astvadz). The double Ar is also found in Ararat, which means place of Arar, or the place where Ararich created in other words 75.24.236.45 22:11, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Another example is Ararat and Urartu, where Ur variation is Ar. So now with Germans, Persians, Armenians, all having the name Armen in their form like: Armin and Arman in Germans and Persians, we have a common link in the past as Indo-European(Aryan) peoples. Why is there any doubts about that, when the very names are there 75.24.236.45 22:16, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

The root of the word Aryan could be Ar-yo, but its also the other form 'Ari' which is also found in ancient records, I'll try to get that too as a cited source. Ari was the earlier form of Ari-ya, which was found in the Armenian Highlands. That is where the Persua(Persians) were before migrating south. Another thing is that I forgot is, there are Aryan swastika symbols found in the Armenian Highlands dating to atleast the 4th millennium BC. Aryan swastika symbols exactly like the ones in India found. Yet another proof of Indo-Europeans in the Armenian Highlands in ancient times, besides the Kura-Araxes culture 75.24.236.45 22:19, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

In the reference I gave here of http://www.avesta.org/znames.htm , this is what it says that Im referring to:

ARMIN: a dweller of the garden of Eden; son of King Kobad

Look carefully its in that avesta.org page 75.4.26.129 05:41, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

you are discussing various unrelated names that sound roughly the same. No case is made that there is in fact a specific people being discussed. This belongs (the parts that are at all substantiated, that is), on Armenia#Name. dab (𒁳) 05:52, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

No, Im talking about Armin is an Armenian name, and the girls common name is Armin'e , this Armin that I showed you is Armenian as well as Persin and German. Its mainly Armenian girls name, the Armen of the feminine, which is Armin'e 75.4.26.129 06:10, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

And the Arman you removed, is also an Armenian form of Armen, we put as a man's name. Stop removing info with ignorance. 75.4.26.129 06:12, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

look, you have to provide a reference for your claim that Armenian Armin'e and Avestan Armin are at all connected. Just their sounding alike proves nothing. There is a German name Armin which is completely unrelated, it just happens to be spelled the same. dab (𒁳) 06:20, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Its the same, cause Armina is the form in Persian records from around 500 BC, the same is Armin the Persian and Armenian name, cause have you even read about Persian history?? If you know about that record, it is actually at the time a Persian section of their empire in the north, they called Armina, from their name also of Armin = a dweller of the garden of Eden. Did you look in the page ? You see there is also Arta etc etc. Those that survive in Armenian words and names to this day. Alex mond 06:27, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Not to mention the considered site of the Garden of Eden being in Armenia also. Alex mond 06:28, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

can you please just cite your sources? I have looked at your page. It cites "Armin" as a name of the Parsis. It does not mean "dweller in Paradise", it is the name of a dweller in Paradise in Parsi legend. If you want to connect this in any way with Armenia, you have to cite your source, alright? It's pure speculation, and you have to cite whose speculation it is. Why is this so difficult to understand? You are most welcome to heap speculation upon speculation, but you need to name the author, publication, year, and page number. dab (𒁳) 07:04, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

About the Akkadian record, Ive seen you put in the Akkadian_Empire section of Naram-sin, so you know about that source. Alex mond 07:06, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

sheesh, I am not saying you are wrong, I am asking you to cite your sources. Read my lips: WP:CITE. If there is an inscription by Naram-Sin, cite it, don't pretend it is identical to the one discussed by Albright. dab (𒁳) 07:09, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Ok, whats the problem for you to put it? You didnt put it in the other pages of Akkad etc etc? I dont know that certain source, since you know it like the other sources , can you just add it like you did with the other ones. I dont have the citation of htat which you didnt put in the other pages though Alex mond 07:14, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

it's very easy: give us a reference to a respectable source discussing the Naram-Sin inscription. Until you do that, we will not know where you got this information, and if it is at all reliable. Have you read WP:ATT yet? No, really, read it. dab (𒁳) 07:37, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

so, we are getting somewhere. You say that "Artak Movsisyan, "Aratta: The ancient Kindgom of Armenia," Yerevan, 1992." refers to the Naram-Sin inscription. Do you have access to this book? (page number?) What is Movsisyan's source? Does he identify the inscription? Where was it published? dab (𒁳) 08:21, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] claims

distinguish the following claims:

  1. Assyrian Armani and Egyptian Ermenen have the same referent
  2. this Bronze Age toponym is related to Old Persian Armina
  3. there was a people of the Armani (Armens etc., as opposed to simply a region known as the "Minna mountains") in (a) the 23rd century, (b) the 15th century BC
  4. Urmani is also somehow related
  5. these names have an Indo-European etymology

all of this is wild-eyed speculation, mostly found in Armenian popular "histories" disconnected from anything resembling academia. The best reference we have so far is Easton’s Bible Dictionary saying that "some" identify Armenia as Assyrian Har Minna "Minna mountains" (without endorsing the connection). The ar- etymology is utter nonsense. What we can gather is that the Armenia exonym may have a predecessor in a Bronze Age toponym. That Armin is a name for Armenia "to this day" is utterly irrelevant, since we already know it was a name for Armenia in 520 BC: it doesn't help us with the Assyrian or Egyptian toponym. dab (𒁳) 07:52, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

What is your opinion of the Karda inscription from 3rd millenium BC refering to Kurds? Also, you know about the presents of Indo-Europeans in the Armenian Highlands during the 3rd millenium BC, from the Kura-Arax culture. Not to mention the Aryan swastika symbols identical to the ones in Indus valley they found in the Armenian Highlands. Mitani came later in 2nd millenium following Kura-Arax spread to Syria. Alex mond 08:28, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

what "Karda inscription"? Can you not just please cite your sources and refer to expert opinions? My opinion isn't any more interesting than yours, just cite scholarly literature, thank you. It is anyone's guess whether the Kura-Araxes culture was "Indo-European", some scholars have identified it with Proto-Anatolian, yes. Let's just drop the "Aryan swastika" nonsense from the beginning, shall we? And what, oh what does the Kura-Araxes culture have to do with the topic of this article, the toponym "Armenia"? The Old Persian name may or may not continue a middle Bronze Age toponym, which may or may not be related to Biblical Minni. This has nothing whatsoever to do with Indo-Europeans. dab (𒁳) 09:02, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

The 'land of Karda', it says from Sumerian inscription from 3rd millenium BC, they identify with the Kurds. Its in the Kurds page. I mentioned Kura-Araxes culture, cause it reveals the Indo-European presents before the 2nd millenium BC states and tribes of Indo-European presents, like Mitanni and Hayasa. Also Kura-Arax identified with Anatolian languages, and the spread to Northern Syria of a pottery type associated with the Kura-Araxes culture has been connected with Indo-European movement, but earlier, which is the 3rd millenium BC. So we see here ancient records identified with Armenians, and Indo-European presents also in the Armenian Highlands Alex mond 17:18, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

you apparently fail to understand that the Kuro-Araxes hypothesis is incompatible with the Armenian hypothesis. Please do some background reading before adding random pie-in-the-sky ideas to articles. dab (𒁳) 19:04, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "also read Armani"

Alex, you want to claim that the Armanum toponym in the 2200 BC text is "also read Armani". Your reference for this is "Artak Movsisyan, 'Aratta: The ancient Kindgom of Armenia,' Yerevan, 1992". What sort of reference is this? That's at best a popular summary, which should in turn give its own reference. At the very least tell us what exactly Movsisyan says, on which page. Since I have identified the inscription for you (URI 275), which would have been your job if you want to discuss it, you should now get an edition (Schroeder 1920) of this inscription and tell us precisely which are the variants, and who says that you can "also read" Armanum as Armani. Don't expect other people to do your work for you. My suspicion is that behind this is just more wild speculation that Armanum and Armani refer to the same place. Hell, they sound alike, and they sound like "Armenia". That's fine, but you have to say whose speculation this is, not serve us some hand waving claim that one is "also read" as the other. Now please give me a break and start editing responsibly, researching your claims (as opposed to doing idle google searches and repeating fuzzy statements you found on the internet). dab (𒁳) 09:13, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] What is the Aramaic for "Armenians"?

Alex mond claims it is "Armani", but he is unable to produce the Aramaic spelling. This is a matter of plausibility: if I google სომხები, I get 559 hits. If I google ܐܪܡܝܢܝܐ , I get 395 hits, so it stands to reason that these terms exist even if we don't have a watertight reference for them. But what is the spelling of this postulated Armani? Is it Armānī or Armanī or Armāni or Armani? None of ܐܪܡܢ ܐܪܡܐܢܝ ,ܐܪܡܢܝ get any hits, at all, and I cannot imagine how else you could spell "Armani", so the burden of showing that this is a real Aramaic word is clearly on whoever is making the claim. dab (𒁳) 08:51, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Well it is Armani. I spelled it the way I saw it once in a Assyrian newspaper. All the hits your getting for ܐܪܡܝܢܝܐ (Armenia) are all Wikipedia (Aramaic). The reason your not getting anything from Armani is because the users in Wikipedia Aramaic haven't created that page yet. You won't find that much (non-Christian topics) Aramaic writing on the net. Hope that helps. Chaldean 03:49, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
well, I readily believe this, but it would be ever so much easier if you would cite some notable dictionary up front when discussing terms in langauges so obscure that they give not a single google hit. I get 85 hits independent of Wikipedia for ܐܪܡܝܢܝܐ btw. Can you tell me whether Armani is the singular (as in Arabic), and if it is, what is the plural? dab (𒁳) 08:54, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sources

The majority of the references provided are from the first half of the twentieth century, much of that has since been debunked in the Western academia.-- Ευπάτωρ Talk!! 18:45, 6 January 2008 (UTC)