Talk:Argentine air forces in the Falklands War

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[edit] Argentine air participation

Has anyone got info' on what Argentinian squadrons participated in the Falklands War? SoLando 22:07, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

yes, sure. which force? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 200.47.113.5 (talk • contribs) .
I already added argentine units (Jor70 16:28, 5 February 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Total number of Argentine aircraft really deployed

The Argentine numbers you just add are not accurate (daggers 35, 707 4, A-4B around 35, pucaras at least 70, ... ) I suggest remove them until we found correct data. --Jor70 19:25, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

I've only counted those Argentine airplanes in flying condition during the war, and those involved in the war. The Argentine Navy had 5 Super Étendard, but one of them was used for spare parts; the Argentine Air Force had scattered Pucarás all over Argentina, but only 24 on the islands etc.
We wouldn't count RAF Germany on the British side either. The B707 flights before the hostilities might have involved all 4, as you wrote. --Necessary Evil 19:49, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
I was talking about aircraft deployed to Patagonia, the only ones that remains in the north were those out of service. In any case, you should clarify what those numbers means --Jor70 20:34, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
An Argentine aircraft should be part of one of the following organisations to be part of the list:
  • Teatro de Operaciones Malvinas - aircraft based on the Falklands Islands.
  • Fuerza Aérea Sur - medium-to-long range combat, reconnaissance and transport aircraft based in Southern Argentina.
  • Teatro de Operaciones del Atlántico Sur - shipborne aircraft.
Necessary Evil 22:01, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
The IAI Daggers were bootleg copies of Mirage aircraft, sometimes authors mix the Argentine Daggers and Mirages.
The skyhawks were Vietnam Veterans, bought without garanties, some of them were not airworthy.
What is your numbers, Jor70 ? Regards --Necessary Evil 01:43, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
I just removed the caution signal. FAA in fact deploy more than the number mentioned but it is difficult to make a difference between those directly employed on the islands and those who served as a strike reserve and guardian of the chilean border. --Jor70 15:54, 10 January 2007 (UTC)


If we are going to include Cdro.Riv. Pucara lost we should also add all planes not lost too, therefore the number of A-4 and Daggers deployed is incomplete Jor70 00:41, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

You seems to have better sources, so go ahead. All aircraft used against the British must be on the list. Comodoro Rivadavia is part of Fuerza Aérea Sur. Regards Necessary Evil 00:56, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] More details

I would like to add some more data like this --Jor70 21:18, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Date Tail Code Obs
May 21,1982 C-403 Shot down by Sea Harrier ZA190/"009". Pilot Ejected
May 21,1982 C-404 Shot down by Sea Harrier ZA190/"009". Pilot Ejected
May 21,1982 C-407 Shot down by Sea Harrier ZA175/"004". Pilot Ejected
May 21,1982 C-409 Shot down by Sea Harrier XZ455/"12". Pilot Ejected
May 24,1982 C-410 Shot down by Sea Harrier ZA193/"93". Pilot Ejected
May 24,1982 C-419 Shot down by Sea Harrier XZ457/"14". Pilot Lt. Castillo died
May 21,1982 C-428 Shot down by SAM Sea Wolf HMS Broadsword (F88). Pilot Lt. Bean died
May 24,1982 C-430 Shot down by Sea Harrier XZ457/"14". Pilot Ejected
May 1,1982 C-433 Shot down by Sea Harrier XZ455/"12". Pilot Lt. Ardiles died
May 29,1982 C-436 Shot down by SAM Rapier. Pilot Lt. Bernhard died
May 23,1982 C-437 Shot down by by Sea Harrier ZA194. Pilot Lt. Volponi died
Maybe in chronological order?--Necessary Evil 00:45, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
I put them by tail code , but yes I think now that by date + location would be better Jor70 02:46, 16 January 2007 (UTC)


[edit] KC-130

Is a KC-130 tanker not just an ordinary C-130, with a refuelling kit? I've read that the two KC-130 tankers had the codenames "París" and "Berlín". I've just forgot my source; do you have some comments ? Necessary Evil 17:42, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

No, only TC-69 and TC-70 could done aerial refuel, the kit was not changeable to the others airframes. I not remember reading about Paris and Berlin, I know they were/are popularly called Chancha (female pig) Jor70 18:00, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps they were call signs for TC-69 and TC-70 in an attack plan: "..rendezvous with PARÍS on the way out and rendezvous with BERLÍN on the way home..." ?? I recall some of the skyhawks was called VULCANO, ZEUS, MARTE, TORO ETC. Was the aircraft individually painted or was it call signs for one strike? Necessary Evil 17:12, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Every flight mission (strikes,transport,decoy,refuel,...) issued by the FAS (Fuerza Aerea Sur) was called in Spanish Orden Fragmentaria and had a radio signal. Examples are Orden Fragmentaria 1177 : 4 A-4B named Cuña 1 to Cuña 4 , Orden Fragmentaria 2258 (C-130 shot down while perfoming recognition)was Tiza. Cpt Carballo for example was Nene 1 when his section attack Antelope and was Vulcano 1 against the Coventry. KC-130s often used Perro (Dog) 1 and Perro 2 but were always affectively called chanchas --Jor70 18:36, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
That sounds very interesting, there could be a whole new article regarding Argentine missions with call signs and pilots etc. I can remember a map, with PARÍS and BERLÍN as areas, where Skyhawks and/or Super Etendart could meet KC-130's. Regards Necessary Evil 21:04, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
The best book that I know about this is this one written by FAA officer. There is also a english translated edition --Jor70 22:31, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] You tube link

Isn't the video copyrighted and therefore not to be linked to?GraemeLeggett 16:26, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

dont think so, Youtube allows to be linked to them and the content itself would be deleted by Youtube if is not appropiated Jor70 17:03, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
In general Wikipedia frowns on links to YouTube for practical reasons; Wikipedia is not liable for copyright violations in a case such as this, but in the scenario you describe, someone will have to periodically check the Youtube link to see if it still works. -Ashley Pomeroy 20:19, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
this particular video has been in youtube for 2 months now and it does not seem to have any problem --Jor70 23:24, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] More detail

I would like to add more coverage of FAA and COAN actions, but I would like to known first if there are any objections. Jor70 17:07, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Good idea, but perhaps as subarticles. Necessary Evil 20:46, 27 March 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Argentine Air Force general ranks

Hi User:Jor70. Fuerza Aérea Argentina has three generalranks:

  • Brigadier General — 3-star or Lieutenant General
  • Brigadier Mayor — 2-star or Major General
  • Brigadier — 1-star or Brigadier General

In the article it's like all senior AF officers are 1-star generals, wasn't Ernesto Crespo a 2-star general? And was Lami Dozo the only 3-star general? Necessary Evil 20:46, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

All commands were created during April'82 with Air Brigades chiefs choosen as their commanders, Crespo being from IV Air Brigade (a striker), Hughes from the VIII (a fighter), etc. Lami Dozo (AF chief of staff ) was the only 3-star whilst 2-star were AF chief of personel, AF chief of logistic, (non-combatants) etc. Wings commanders (Escuadrillas) were commodores and vice commodores .Jor70 22:21, 27 March 2007 (UTC)


[edit] T-34 armament

What kind of guns and rockets were the T-34 armed with? Or are it omitted because they didn't see action (all four were sabotaged at the Pebble Island raid)? If that's the case, it's OK with me. Did the MB.339 attack with guns (the two dead sailors on HMS Argonaut, at D-Day)? Regards Necessary Evil 13:58, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

T-34 used to have LAU-32 7-Tube rocket launcher plus SUU-11 7.62mm Minigun pod. Lt Owen Crippa, used rockets and gun fire when overfly the Argonaut during his recco flight. In fact, in his report he confirm the guns impact but didnt know about the rockets result. For engaged the british anphibious fleet alone ( flying twice over the area to determine the number of ships ) he was awarded with the max condecoration La Nacion Argentina al Heroico valor en Combate Jor70 14:19, 4 April 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Missions, flights or sorties

IMHO one mission could involve several aircraft, so maybe sorties would be better. Flights for the aircraft of the airbridge is fine. The picture [Image:FAA Air Bases 1982.gif] a.k.a. "bases.gif" from [1] is accompanied by "malvinas.gif", with the Argentine AFB on the islands. Have you wikified "malvinas.gif", as it might come in handy. Necessary Evil 15:20, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

You are right sorry, there were sorties (each one = 1 aircraft). You should also perahps find a more suitable section title too than Perfomance. I only took the first picture, but you are free to go :-) Jor70 15:27, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps Air Campaign like Gulf_War#Air_campaign. Regardless of the name, it should be between "Units" and "Casualties and aircraft losses", with "Armament" before "References".
Regarding the buddy refuelling, I think I've read that COAN had one kit on ARA 25 de Mayo, so 1 Skyhawk was reserved as a tanker 2nd May and in Anderson, Duncan: The Falklands War 1982 (2002) Osprey Publishing Ltd. ISBN 1-84176-422-1 page 32 there is a picture of A-4C buddy refuelling. It's a B/W picture, but the aircraft are dark with no pattern and with light underbellies. Necessary Evil 16:36, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
Ok with the changes, As I read ARA buddy kit was not operational in 1982 and the new ones not arrived until years later. Jor70 16:43, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Casualties and aircraft losses

Im reading here they were 7 on the Hercules (Meisner,Martel,Krause,Lastra,Albelos,Cardone and Cantezano) and 5 on the Learjet (De La Colina,Falconier,Lotufo,Luna and Marizza). That counts 2 pilots and 10 crew men. Then 1May Canberra (pilot and navigator lost) and 13jun Canberra (navigator lost) do you agree ? Jor70 22:29, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

According to http://www.fuerzaaerea.mil.ar/conflicto/caidos.html:
  • Hercules C-130 (I Brigada Aérea)
    • Aviador Militar - pilot
      • Martel, Krause
    • Navegador Militar - navigator
      • Meisner
    • Auxiliar de Carga - loadmaster
      • Lastra, Albelos
    • Mecánico - flight engineer
      • Cardone
  • LearJet LR-35 A (II Brigada Aérea)
    • Aviador Militar - pilot
      • De la Colina, Falconier
    • Aerofotografía - air photographer
      • Lotufo
    • Mecánico - flight engineer
      • Cantezano, Luna, Marizza
so 4 pilots and 8 crewmembers. Canberra is OK with me. Necessary Evil 23:49, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

I was counting their role when they were shot down (co-pilots). Also, until today, it is unclear for me why a crew of 7 was used in a recco role.- Jor70 00:05, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't know if it's a Spanish translation problem, but in English air captains and co-pilots are both counted as pilots, so a C-130 could easily have two pilots etc. Necessary Evil 00:16, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Background section

What does this sentence mean? 'Argentine military aviation during the 1982 war did not benefit from their fastest jets neither outnumbering the British Sea Harrier force'? Are we saying that there was no benefit from the restricted speed or the relative numbers of opponents? Please could you clarify this please Kernel Saunters 13:12, 18 June 2007 (UTC) Also, it would seem that not including Pucaras the Argentinian forces had > 2x the numbers of strike aircraft to deploy (not withstanding the limitations stated). Kernel Saunters 13:26, 18 June 2007 (UTC)


The goal is to put the casual reader back to real facts. Today is common to read in British media things like ... who faced odds of 10 to 1 against the fast jets of the Argentine Air Force [2] :

  • The top ratio of argentines aircraft at the same time over the islands was reach May 1 in 36
  • The A-4, Canberras, Aermacchi, Super Etendard, Pucaras, etc were not fastest than a SeaHarr
  • Had you ever read about a Mirage/Dagger at Match 1 over the islands ? They would go out of fuel !

Also, Is there any mention in the British media about (not counting the 4 available Super etendards)

  • The Argentine strike aicraft do not having any electronic or air missile for self defence ?
  • After flying 1 hour in complete radio silence from their bases in the continent, the Argentine aircraft had less than 5 minutes to overfly the islands and found a target while escaping the high concentration of British SAMs and cannons and the Sea Harriers Caps ?
  • 99% of the attacks (A-4/Daggers/Canberra) were made with free fall dumb iron bombs ?
  • 13 1000lbs bombs hit British Ships without detonating ?
  • In their admirably performance, SeaHarrs just intercept less than 10% of the Argentine strikes, and that not because there were 200 Argentine planes to intercept at a time. And when they do, the air-air combat was AIM-9L vs nothing.
  • Vulcans, RAF Harriers and Sea Harriers were unable to destroy the Port Stanley runway in 45 days ?

Jor70 14:10, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

The aim should be to give an good overview of the situation rather than to right any perceived wrongs. I can assure you that several of your points have been well reported in the UK especially the UXBs and the lack of time for the pilots in the combat zone so if I have time I'll add supporting info from British sources. I'm still a bit unclear of the meaning of the sentence mean starting 'Argentine military aviation and exactly what the intent is? Kernel Saunters 18:20, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
When I wrote the paragrah, I started with Contrary to popular understanding, ... and that is a fact due we can find dozen of articles written these days (25 years later!!) on the British media Jor70 18:28, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Escuadron Fenix.jpg

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BetacommandBot (talk) 20:13, 13 February 2008 (UTC)