Talk:Argentina and Brazil football rivalry

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Flag
Portal
 Argentina and Brazil football rivalry is within the scope of WikiProject Brazil, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of Brazil and Brazil-related topics. If you would like to participate, visit the project page.
B This article has been rated as B-class on the quality scale.
??? This article has not yet received a rating on the importance scale.
To-do list for Brazil:
Argentina and Brazil football rivalry was supported by the football article improvement drive, a weekly collaboration to improve association football-related articles to featured article status.
WikiProject on Football
Association football Portal
The article on Argentina and Brazil football rivalry is supported by the WikiProject on Football, which is an attempt to improve the quality and coverage of Association football related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can visit the project page; if you have any questions about the project or the article ratings below, please consult the FAQ.
B This article has been rated as B-Class on the quality scale.
High This article has been rated as High-importance on the importance scale.
This article is supported by the WikiProject on Argentine football.

Contents

[edit] Help

The article has a number of things missing.

  1. The incident of the contaminated bottles (Pinchex, that's your beloved Bilardo's bidon)
  2. Cites from footballers of boths sides describing the importance of the rivalry
  3. Pictures of games, grafitties, etc...
  4. Maradona vs. Pele rivalry (an article of its own?) [1][2] [3][4] Cites:Figo Ronaldinho

Mariano(t/c) 10:28, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

What about the Rocca Cup (Copa Rocca)? It was a trophy played in anual basis between Argentina and Brazil, from the 10's to the 70's. There's not a single mention about that in the article. marceloschleder Talk 18:11, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
If you have sources, please add, we need it! Sebastian Kessel Talk 18:50, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The 1983 youth teams

Both Argentina and Brasil had successful youth teams in 1983. In the final of the 1983 South-American competition (held in Bolivia), there were many incidents of violence (Argentines singled out Dunga as an especially dirty player). Both national teams reached the final of the world youth championship (held where?) (the rosters were basically unchanged) and the violence repeated itself. (Mariano: Arg's coach was one Carlos Pachamé...)

[edit] Calls by fans during matches

On one match in the late 60s, Pelé was playing very good—even by his high standards—and a frustrated Argentina fan shouted: Ché negro, teléfono ("Black [man], phone call [for you]").

Note: The usage of "negro" is not necessarily a racial slur in Argentina; many use it as a term of endearment; this is also true for Brazilians, who will often shorten it to "nego".

Don't play stupid, Argentinian.^ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.70.182.24 (talk) 14:37, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Usage of "macacos" in Argentina

Some Argentine press (such as diaries Crónica and Diario Popular) have insisted in calling Brazilian football teams macacos ("monkeys"), but the term never caught with the general public. On the other hand, some of the fans' Anti-Brazilian songs do refer to the "blacker" nature of the Brazilian team.

Huh? I never ever read something like that, and I lived in Argentina for 25 years! Sebastian Kessel Talk 21:14, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
The usage of "macacos" in the "popular" press was quite consistent during the 70s and 80s. Maybe it declined later. As for the songs... the "Siga el baile" candombe was used for quite a while, as well as another song derived from Palito Ortega's Caradura... elpincha 16:41, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
Well, I meant just the "macacos", but you're right, I barely remember the early 80s (Was born in '77). Sebastian Kessel Talk 17:01, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
Just a curiosity: Is it legal to be that young? Seriously now: since Argentina and Brazil had some geopolitical issues (which, ahem, subsided with the creation of Mercosur) it is not altogether impossible that some Argentine governments, especially de-facto ones, fueled anti-Brazilian sentiment through the press. The "macacos" stuff was aimed at less-educated classes, while oblique allusions to Itamaraty's "dark designs" were written on the more serious press. That much I remember clearly from the Proceso days, and could be validated by anybody caring to go to a library and read the stuff. elpincha 09:46, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
At least they let me drink beer! :) Re: the allegations, I believe you, I wouldn't put anything past the Proceso goons... they were pretty much capable of doing any evil you accuse them of. :( Sebastian Kessel Talk 18:49, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The water-bottle incident in 1990

The 1990 World Cup match was clearly dominated by Brazil, but the team who did score was Argentina, through Caniggia (after a sensational pass by Maradona). In one incident, Brazilian defender Branco drank from a bottle supplied to him by an Argentine field assistant (true name of "Galíndez" here). Branco felt dizzy afterwards. When he some of the Argentines about the true contents of the bottle, he did not receive a conclusive answer. After a few years, it was disclosed in the press (source here) that Argentine coach Bilardo had added (substance name here). (Controversy timeline here, including Diego's admission on TV in 2005).

This article provides most of the needed information, including a quote of Branco saying it didn't affect the result of the match. Galindez (Miguel di Lorenzo) denies the acusations.

[edit] Ronaldinho

(Warning: POV). Many Argentines who are of the opinion that Maradona was greater than Pelé are willing to admit that Ronaldinho may possibly surpass both as the greatest player of all time.

Like who? He is great but I don't believe any Argentine fan (and never heard of one that does) will ever admit that a Brazilian can possibly be better than Maradona. Sebastian Kessel Talk 21:16, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
Like, em, about half the argies I know... maybe the age and the distance are mellowing us. But maybe we should just "leave it there", as Bernardo Neustadt would say... elpincha 11:38, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
Wow... I must be younger that I thought... LOL!!! Sebastian Kessel Talk 18:47, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

During Maradona's tv show "La Noche del Diez" in 2005, when Pele was invited, he asked about the issue. Maradona confirmed and when Pele asked for the names of the responsible people he said "I tell you the miracle, but not the name of the saint". Ronnie Schneider

[edit] Rivals For The New Millenium

Section looks like crystal-balling. Remove? Conscious 10:36, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

(Personal opinion) Yeah, or at least edit for relevance... elpincha 11:38, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
The section is even POV, and does not give any information. I'm deleting it. Mariano(t/c) 11:50, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Title with Argentina and Brazil

The title of this article is Argentina vs. Brazil. Logos with the opposite positions : Brazil and Argentina...always respecting both countries...regardsCloretti2 23:13, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

I will take out logos201.1.152.19 02:03, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Inserting logos again...Cloretti2 02:05, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Names and logos are usually sorted alphabetically. I'm sorry for Zimbabwe, but that's the only logical thing to do. What's more, having the logos opposite might confuse the reader. Secondly, wether I agree or not, there's the idea that such logos (which are used under the fair use license) are not to be used for decoration. Mariano(t/c) 07:07, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Macaquitos

Hello people, I just created the Macaquitos article, an old infamous argentine offensive joke against Brazilians. --Celso Daniel 21:39, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bias

While reading the Incidents section of the article, I realized how all of the incidents defend the National Football team of Argentina and it seems to imply that Brazil has only won because of chance. Mariano seems to be the main editor of this article and his affiliation with the national team of Argentina would naturally cause him to defend the Argentineans and try and refute the Brazilian successes. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Cuenca (talk • contribs).

I now I'm an Argie, but I've tried to show both sides of the coin; from the Argentine media insults to Maradona's vicious kick. What's more, the article is hevily based on this Brazilian web page, which doesn't even include the Galindez' special incident. You fail to point out any biased part of the article, nor any missing subject. Please, be constructive and tell us at least what is the article missing, and what is it that you think should be rephrased. Until then, I will remove the {{toofewopinions}} tag you added. Thanks, Mariano(t/c) 07:42, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Brazilians abroad

I removed "This is perhaps due to a greater proportion of Brazillian footballers playing with overseas clubs." on Argentina having better results in South America, sicne this is not only unsourced to be true (I actually doubt it), and second, it is especulation. Argentinians have been playing in Europe since the beggining of the 20th century, several even nationalized Italian and played for other countries. There's also no need to tell that a huge number of Argentine players currently play abroad, perhaps as many as in Brazil, with a population 4 or 5 times smaller. Mariano(t/c) 13:03, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Possible Bias

Pretty much all of the incidents are all obviosly tilted towards Argentina. The Pele-Maradona rivalry section does not take into account the claims by many observers that many TV stations and Newspapers urged Argentines to vote for Maradona in the Fifa awards, with one TV station even giving free internet access, leading to claims of rigging.Nor does it mention countless other polls where Pele has come in front. And besides, most footballing expers will tell you it is unfair to compare them. Maradona was an Attacking Midfielder come supporting striker, while Pele was a deep lying forward. And can someone add the number of matches played, and who has come out in front?

Completely agree, the incidents section is ridiculous, was it written by and argentine? I will erase it and continue to do so for it is deliberately biased. It is incredible that in all that Brazil is always the villain. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.26.73.179 (talk) 02:43, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
I know nothing of the history but Brazil is certainly not always the villain as it has been written. In the first 3 incidents that you have deleted Argentina come out worse. It is of course possible that other important information has been missed out of these sections, if this is the case you should try to find references for this. I'm tempted to restore much of this, particularly the parts that already have references. JMiall₰ 08:25, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

I've removeed the incident section, which was obviously not neutral and confirmedly written by the Argentine user Mariano, which, despite claiming having used as main source a Brazilian page, has omitted every single incident where the outcome clearly favoured Brazil over Argentina (for example, the much memorable "jogo do olé", in which Brazilian players treated the Argentines as mere playthings). He rightfully didn't omit the racist manifestation on the side of Argentines, but, well, if he omitted every single incident where Argentines behaved in such a way, there would be no reported incidents in favour of Argentina.Guinsberg (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 14:59, 13 May 2008 (UTC)