Wikipedia talk:Arbitration policy

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Archive 1 (2004–2005) Archive 2 (2004–2005) Archive 3 (2006) Archive 4 (2007)

Contents 1 Clerks 2 Change 3 Question and Answer Page Proposal 4 Arbitrators may impose article probation without taking a case? 5 Discussion on community-enforced Arb recusal

[edit] Clerks

Hi. I was recently been added to an arbitration case when evidence of purported incivility was presented against me by a clerk, Picaroon, see: [1]. The same clerk then informed me that he had presented evidence against me, but that I was not a party, Thatcher commented elsewhere that essentially anyone who is mentioned in the case could be considered a party as long as they are notified that they are under discussion.

My question/cavil/complaint is that this is improper and unhelpful for a clerk to do, especially one who had already done clerking duties on this arbitration (see [2] and [3]). Picaroon and I had a discussion about this and initially he indicated that he intended to pursue all occasions of incivility, but later indicated that he would likely do no more on the subject, after I had pointed out that there would be quite a bit to do, then still later said that he would, after all, “present further evidence”. Apologies for the chopped up discussion, but our back and forth can be seen here and here.

There does not seem to be a specific policy about this, although the quote Picaroon pointed me to: "Evidence and brief arguments may be added to the case pages by disputants, interested third parties, and the Arbitrators themselves" would seem to exclude clerks. Whatever the legal nigglings maybe, I’d like to state that I think it’s an extraordinarily bad idea to have clerks act as prosecutors/plaintiffs in these cases. My understanding is that clerks recuse when there is a conflict of interest, not that they somehow try to find a way to create one.

Finally, I specifically avoided this case, though I had wanted to drop a note early on to arbcom letting them know that if they took it, any of the bad feeling they wanted to sanction would be dwarfed by the bad feeling the case itself would generate, but did not do so because I did not wish to be added to this proceeding, nor to have my time wasted with charges that I can’t help but think are pretty farfetched. Yet here I am, in this case for no good reason, and pretty annoyed and frustrated. Thanks for your attention. IronDuke 04:12, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

The issue here is that I'm not clerking the case, I'm presenting evidence just like any other Wikipedia user does. I mentioned that I was a clerk not to imply any authority on my part but because IronDuke seemed confused as to how I was connected to the case at all. I mentioned that sometimes, as an extra way of helping out, clerks who aren't clerking that specific case nevertheless involve themselves to help it proceed, like by providing evidence and proposals. The fact that I made two minor edit while this request was still on the main page should not, in my opinion, affect my ability to present evidence. Nevertheless, I welcome any comments from arbitrators and clerks about improper actions on my part, and will take them to heart. Picaroon (t) 04:21, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

It looks fine to me; a clerk only acts "as a clerk" for particular cases, and is just an ordinary bystander (i.e. one of the "interested third parties") in all others. Kirill 04:30, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Please see Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Clerks for a more complete discussion of the role that the clerks do (and do not) play in particular cases. I recently copyedited and updated this page, so hopefully it is consistent both with current practice and with what the arbitrators want the practice to be. Newyorkbrad 16:21, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Brad, thanks very much for that link. A couple of things pop out at me.

1) “Comments made by Clerks on the merits of cases are submitted in their individual capacity, not as Clerks…”

And

2) “Clerks should not add evidence to the Evidence page of a case unless they recuse themselves from the case.”

I point to this [4], left on my talk page by Clerk Picaroon. “I'm just trying to speed along the arbitration case, that being a thing some of us clerks who aren't actually clerking a specific case sometimes pitch in with. One way to speed a case along is to provide evidence.”

Nowhere do I see him recuse from this case. Indeed, he specifically indicates on my talk page that he is acting in his capacity as clerk, not merely as a concerned Wikipedian. Please understand, I am grateful for the role that you all play—it’s in many ways a thankless task. But is the arbcom so hard up for finger-pointing and back-biting in this case that it needed a clerk to wade in and add more? I’ll also just note, FWIW, that Picaroon indicates on my talk page that he is largely unfamiliar with the background events of this case, and yet presents out of context evidence against me essentially at random. It’s annoying when regular users do this. To have someone who is purportedly acting on behalf of the arbitration committee do it is, I think, counterproductive.

Finally, I know it was somewhat in jest, but a while back people started talking about clerks being given fezzes, so we’d know to look out for them. I still think something on that order would be a great idea. IronDuke 16:48, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

No, that isn't in my capacity as a clerk, as I've told you two or three times now. You seemed unaware why I would bother presenting evidence, so I mentioned that sometimes clerks who were not the clerk assigned to the case tried to help in other ways. Providing concise, neutral evidence is one way to do this, last I checked, but if the arbitrators don't find such a thing useful I'll be glad to stop. Next, who said I was doing it on behalf of the arbcom? You're pulling more and more things out of thin air. As to recusal, obviously I'm recused here, but since the case is already off the main page, I don't think there is any specific place to state this. I wasn't aware that I would present evidence until after the case was accepted, which is why I didn't recuse in the clerk notes section. And finally, since it seems it will make you happy, I've added a fez to my userpage. You can't imagine how proud it makes me feel. Picaroon (t) 17:08, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps the confusion lies in the difference between "a" clerk and "the" clerk. That is to say, is there one main clerk who sifts through all the verbiage and makes sure everything is where it should be on any given case? And is he occasionally aided by other clerks who help him with these duties? And are you one of these clerks, who is aiding the main clerk? You see where I'm going?

Everything you do that is "pitching in to help" is, in my understanding, on behalf of the arbcom. Your posts on this page are, to me, on behalf of the arbcom. If I leave a note on your page asking whether I'm allowed to refactor the talk page of an arb case, and you say "Nope," you are speaking on behalf of arbcom, as I understand it.

Please know, I'm not trying to torment you, I'm just saying it looked very much to me as though you were "helping" as a "clerk", even if you weren't officially assigned to the case, but that the "help" you were providing was outside your role, and quite unhelpful in any case. I suppose I've made it clear by now that I think this is a recipe for confusion and bad feeling, an I'd love it if other arbs/clerks could weigh in on the matter.

Lastly, I enjoyed the fez on your user page quite a bit, and must respectfully disagree with Thatcher that it's a bad idea--I'm curious as to why he thinks so. IronDuke 17:23, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

PS--I want to make it clear, I'm not objecting to clerks sorting evidence, but I don't think they should be adding parties to the case (and I interpret being notified that there is evidence against me at arbcom as effectively being listed as a party). IronDuke 18:01, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

• Let me try and clear up a few misunderstandings. The clerks have a very small number of "official" functions^[1] Clerks should not perform these official functions on cases where they were involved in the dispute or had significant previous negative involvement with the parties. Recusals are noted when the case request is filed, and sometimes at WP:AC/CN, but there is no place on the case subpages to record recusals because, frankly, we just aren't that important, and a major disagreement has never yet come up.

• Generally one clerk is "assigned" to a case but any non-recused clerk may offer advice or pick up issues here and there as needed.

• Beyond that, any editor is free to add evidence or participate in the workshop of any arbitration case. Because the arbitration clerks have an interest in arbitration and have observed a lot of cases, we sometimes feel that we have good ideas about how to present evidence and workshop proposals that are likely to be helpful to the Arbitrators.^[2] A clerk will sometimes take an active interest in a case even if it does not involve them personally, and may present evidence or workshop proposals on one or all sides of a case. (I have been involved in many cases, most recently RFAR/Jefferey Vernon Merkey, where I presented evidence and wrote workshop proposals that were adopted nearly verbatim by the Arbitrators.) In this capacity clerks are not invested with any more credibility or authority than any other editor. However, clerks who take this role should not also act "officially."^[3] The dividing line for "involvement" is not set in stone, but a good rule of thumb is that clerks can offer procedural and even substantive comments on the workshop page like any other editor, but when a clerk begins to add evidence, they should recuse themselves from "official" clerk acts.^[4]

• I think Picaroon's communications with you were less than 100% effective, and your confusion is understandable. However, there is nothing in his actions on the case that is out of the ordinary in any way. He is not speaking here "on behalf of ArbCom", just for himself. You should ask the clerk of record (indicated by the initials on Template:ArbComOpenTasks if you have any questions, such as refactoring a talk page, and I would expect that a clerk who involved himself in a case would decline to answer and direct you to the right person if you happened to ask him instead.

• The issue of adding "parties" is, as I noted here, more or less pointless. The Arbitrators will decide who (if anyone) should be named in a finding of fact or remedy, and it is simply common courtesy to tell someone that you have added evidence against them, just as it is an expected courtesy to let someone know when you are discussing them on the Administrators' noticeboard or other such place. Whether you are notified by the person who presented the evidence or one of the clerks has no influence on the Arbitrators' ultimate decision in the case.

• There will be no fezzes. The fez was the invention of a disgruntled editor who thought the clerks had too much power. The solution to this perception is not to create a sigil to further differentiate clerks from editors, but to do a better job of explaining and demystifying the role of "clerk." Thatcher131 18:07, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree with everything that Thatcher131 has written here. Newyorkbrad 18:14, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for that Thatcher (and Brad). Aside from my stubborn insistence that fezzes are a good idea, I will agree you with on all points except for the idea that there are no parties as such—or at least, I very much hope you are wrong about that. Here’s why:

If there are no “parties,” then that leaves arbcom the option of sanctioning any editor, for any reason, even if they have not been named in the case and even if their conduct has no bearing on the matter they are considering. Thus, any user could be sanctioned without ever having been given an opportunity to defend themselves. If that’s going to be the case, I’d love to see the whole public giving of evidence thing abolished, and arbcom could just become another aspect of AN/I, and make decisions without public regard to evidence or argument.

I believe that editors becomes a “party” as soon as evidence is entered against one and notification is given. I believe, and correct me if I’m wrong, that if I initiate an arbcom proceeding against Jimbo, say, and do not notify him, that my request would be malformed. I’m not trying to wikilawyer here: it seems to me to be an essential part of the process for parties to know they are being judged, it can’t be called a mere “courtesy.”

So my assumption was that I was not a party until someone decided to officially drag me into it, and a clerk dragged me into it trying to “help.” You’ve said there hasn’t been any major disagreement wit this before. Okay, I am now officially disagreeing with this practice in a major fashion, for reasons already stated, and I would invite you all to have further discussion amongst yourselves as to the wisdom of my counsel. (Perhaps nothing will come of this, and I am merely a statistical outlier in terms of my unhappiness with this practice. Only time will tell, I guess.) Anyway, thanks to all four of you for listening and responding so quickly. IronDuke 23:37, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

We have had a case or two where the original parties actually edit-warred on the arbitration page over the addition of parties to the official list of parties, as if that was important. You are certainly correct that once someone has entered evidence against you, you should be notified, and you should at least keep an eye on the case, or respond, since the possibility that you will be included in any sanctions is thereby increased. Where you are mistaken is in thinking that anyone "officially" dragged you into the case, or that Picaroon's edits to the case carry more weight, or officialness, than if they had been made by Cerejota (a named party) or by Jossi (who is not named but considers himself involved) or by GRBerry (who is an outsider but has entered evidence against several users). Thatcher131 00:57, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Change

Per Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Jimbo Wales#Response and the discussion at WP:RfArb, I suggest altering the sentence Remedies and enforcement actions may be appealed to, and are subject to veto by, Jimbo Wales. to cover the possibility of review of Jimbo's own actions. Perhaps, Jimbo reserves the right to veto enforcement actions in cases in which he is not a party.

Less controversially, Elections might be moved out of the section on things not yet decided as the current system is generally well received and stable. Eluchil404 20:34, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Question and Answer Page Proposal

Summary: There should be one page dedicated to questions and answers for all open Arbitration Cases so that all questions for arbitrators can be concentrated and kept on the same page in the same namespace, not spread across arbitrator talk pages.

Longer version: Editors recognize that the Arbitrators do not have time to follow, in real time, all of the diffs on all of the pages of all of the arbitration cases. Editors recognize that questions that they would like to ask the Arbitrators would usually get no response, or a much delayed response, if asked in one of the several talk pages of the arbitration. In response to this, many editors will message Arbitrators directly on their talk pages, which garners a much faster response.

The problem with doing so is that, consequently, discussion relevant to the Arbitration is split from the remainder of the discussion. Those who haven't watchlisted Arbitrators' talk pages might not even be aware of the communication. I think that this is problematic, but I would like to suggest a solution.

I believe that one Question and Answer Page would be a useful addition to Arbitration - not one per arbitration, but one on which all questions that would normally go to Arbitrator user_talkpages could be concentrated. There, users could ask questions, and arbitrators could reply as needed. This resolves the current problems: it provides a clean space that arbitrators can readily keep track without getting lost in tens or hundreds of daily diffs, it allows users a place to ask a question and reasonably expect that an Arbitrator will see it, and it keeps all of the discussion within the Arbitration, instead of allowing it to get scattered across Userspace where some participants might not see it.

Essentially this proposal stems from my two experiences in arbitration. In the first (Paranormal), Fred Bauder's talkpage became the de facto talk page where we could all get an arbitrator response: [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] [15] [16] [17] [18] [19] [20] [21] [22] In the second (Science Apologist-Martinphi), editors have begun asking arbitrators questions directly on their talk pages, resulting in modifications to a proposed decision based on that discussion: [23] [24] . Discussion, especially discussion leading to real outcomes, should be kept in-namespace. I, too, have questions that I would like answered, but I don't think that messaging individual arbitrators is in the best interest of the encyclopedia.

I would like to get feedback regarding this suggestion, and I would love to see this, or an improved version, implemented. An example can be seen in my userspace, here. Thank you - Antelan ^talk 00:55, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

This is a very good idea. I would like to have this addition, though: that it be formatted so that if someone asks a question, other users do not respond directly, but put their responses in another space, just as when parties, others, and Arbitrators are separate on usual ArbCom pages.

Second, email must not be forbidden. I've never used it myself, but I can see instances where you'd need it. ——Martin^phi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 03:52, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your input. I like your suggestions. Just try clarify: I'm not trying to forbid anything. I'm trying to make this new Q&A page so appealing that people will think "Hey, I can a response just as fast or faster if I ask questions there than if I go around to each Arbitrator's talk page." Antelan ^talk 05:57, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

I like the idea. Arbitrators should keep an eye on such a page all of the time and quickly answer relevant questions regarding the arbitration. Wikidudeman ^(talk) 14:47, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

What's wrong with the talk page of the arbitration case? MilesAgain (talk) 17:07, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Arbitrators may impose article probation without taking a case?

Often, requests for arbitration are submitted which involve complex content disputes without clear evidence of behavior problems which can be adequately corrected by arbitration remedies. In many of those cases, it would be beneficial to impose Wikipedia:Article probation on the articles involved without the time or effort required by formal arbitration. Therefore I am proposing the following to be inserted as the third paragraph of Wikipedia:Arbitration policy#Requests and the second paragraph of Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration#How a request is processed:

When arbitrators are voting on whether to accept requests, they each may, at their option, either recommend that any or all of the article(s) involved be placed on article probation, or they may object to it. When the case is declined after 10 days or opened, if at least one arbitrator has so recommended, and none have objected, the article(s) are placed on probation until removed by the passage of a remedy or motion.

I invite discussion on this proposal. I have placed pointers to here on WP:VP/PR, WT:RFARB, WT:SANCTION, and WP:AN.

It occurs to me that people who think this is too strong might prefer replacing "at least one" (arbitrator) with "at least two" etc. MilesAgain (talk) 17:23, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I believe that the ArbCom can only rule on cases which have been appealed to them in the proper manner. Bstone (talk) 19:46, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Rather, see the discussion on community imposed probation for Homeopathy at WP:AN. Arbitration is for disputes that can't be resolved by the community. If an article is such a problem that many admin endorse taking action and none seriously dispute it, then we can take action without Arbcom's approval. Thatcher 20:10, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

There's also this, no idea if that section is "archived" or not, though, so this might be the only case recorded here. x42bn6 Talk Mess 00:48, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion on community-enforced Arb recusal

Please see: Wikipedia talk:Requests for arbitration/Mantanmoreland/Proposed decision/Archive1#Procedural question on recusal. Lawrence § t/e 00:31, 15 February 2008 (UTC)