Talk:Apostasy in Islam

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[edit] Advice

Advice: When editting this article think of No true Scotsman. If you are not getting the message of that or wish to portray a point of view that oversimplifies as such cite a source. gren 09:06, 7 May 2005 (UTC)

Make sure to keep these up to date with the best of information from here noting how long each of them should be. We do not want to flood any of those pages with information from here and I made this page because it does deserve to have a decent length. gren 03:12, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Lead

This doesn't belong in the lead as it does not receive a significant amount of elaboration in the body:

W. Heffening states that in Qur'an "the apostate is threatened with punishment in the next world only" and "in traditions, there is little echo of these punishments in the next world ... and instead, we have in many traditions a new element, the death penalty." [1] Heffening states that Shafi'is interpret verse [Qur'an 2:217] as adducing the main evidence for the death penalty in Qur'an. Wael Hallaq states the death penalty was a new element added later and "reflects a later reality and does not stand in accord with the deeds of the Prophet." He further states that "nothing in the law governing apostate and apostasy derives from the letter of the holy text." [2]

Arrow740 03:51, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree, good call. --Matt57 (talk•contribs) 03:53, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
It is the view of the Qur'an on the topic followed by a section on the view of traditions. In fact, the article starts with the section on the Qur'an. --Aminz 08:11, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
Not a response. Arrow740 08:15, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
What do you mean? --Aminz 08:16, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Notable apostates section

It appears selecting people to list is unencyclopedic and unnecessary to "select" individuals to be listed in a section here, I recommend we simply provide a link in the seealso section to the relevant article (already there in fact). ITAQALLAH 19:07, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Agree. This is unnecessary and appears to indicate that the ones not selected are not notable. → AA (talk • contribs) — 19:33, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose An article about apostates needs to list notable apostates.--SefringleTalk 19:36, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
on what basis? this isn't a straw poll by the way. ITAQALLAH 19:38, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
Sure looks like one. Anyway because the article is about apostates of islam. An article about people who do a certian thing should include a small list of notable people who do that thing.--SefringleTalk 19:41, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
"An article about people who do a certian thing should include a small list of notable people who do that thing." -- says who? do you, for example, see a list of notable homosexuals on Homosexuality? what stylistic/guideline-based precedent are you citing for this assertion? ITAQALLAH 00:30, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
You still haven't explained why the section should be removed.--SefringleTalk 00:42, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
please address my questions. a list of this nature isn't necessary, nor is it encyclopedic. we have a place where such people are listed, we don't need to pick and choose who from the notable personalities should be mentioned here - nor is there any appropriate precedence for it. ITAQALLAH 00:51, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Apostasy in the Quran

Arrow, please explain your edit [1] and removal of each of those pieces information. --Aminz 04:32, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reasons against the killing of apostates

Noble Verse 2:217 "They ask thee (Mohammed) Concerning fighting In the Prohibited Month. Say: Fighting therein Is a grave (offence); but graver is it In the sight of Allah to prevent access to the path of Allah, to deny Him, to prevent access to the sacred Mosque, and drive out its members. Tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter. Nor will they cease fighting you until they turn you back from your faith if they can. And if any of you turn back from their faith (Islam) and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the hereafter; they will be companions of the fire and will abide therein." Here in this Holy Verse we see that Allah Almighty talks about those who leave Islam, and promises them punishment in the day of judgment. Allah Almighty doesn't order the death of those people.

Some group of Muslims believe in killing apostates because they follow a Hadith (Saying) from Prophet Mohammed peace be upon him regarding the apostates. While Islam was weak and still growing among Jews, Christians and Pagans, Muslims did not have the full and complete religion that they needed. Some Jews and Christians wanted to take advantage of such situation to destroy Islam. They had a plan to adopt Islam first and then desert it, thus creating the impression that Islam was not a religion worth adopting.

Let us look at Noble Verse 3:72 "A section of the People of the Book (Jews and Christians) say: Believe in the morning what is revealed to the believers (Muslims), but reject it at the end of the day; perchance they may (themselves) turn back (from Islam)." To protect Islam from such Satanic attempts done by a group of the people of the book (Jews and Christians), Prophet Mohammed peace be upon him ordered the death of those who enter Islam and leave it. This temporary law that was put by our Prophet had stopped the hypocrites from the People of the Book who carried so much hatred toward Islam to enter Islam and desert it afterwards.

Let us look at Noble Verse 2:191 "And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith." The killing of the pagans who fought the Muslims during the time when Islam was not yet complete was essential.

Important Note: Noble Verse 2:191 above is not dedicated to the apostates as some Muslims use it to prove that the Noble Quran orders the killing of apostates. In fact, it doesn't even mention the apostates. It talks in general about slaying the pagans who declare wars on the Muslims. The pagans would obviously include the apostates who deserted Islam, but the Noble Verse certainly doesn't DIRECTLY order the killing of anyone who deserts Islam.

Let us look at Noble Verse 5:3 ".....This day those who reject faith given up all hope of your religion: Yet fear them not But fear Me (Allah). This day have I (Allah) perfected your religion for you, completed my favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your (complete) religion....". So long as Islam was not organized, with its own community and its own laws, the unbelievers and the Hypocrites from the People of the Book and the Pagan Arabs had hoped to wean the believers from the new teaching. Now that hope is gone forever with the complete organization of Islam.

Let us look at Noble Verses 15:2-3 "Again and again will those who disbelieve, wish that they had bowed (to God's will) in Islam. Leave them alone, to enjoy (the good things of this life) and to please themselves: let (false) hope amuse them: soon will knowledge (undeceive them)."


For further details, please see the following site: http://www.answering-christianity.com/apostates.htm

--Fantastic4boy 05:07, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

To support the statements I've made above, you can read the academic books and journals on the following websites:

- Toleration and Exclusion: Al-Shafii and al-Ghazali on the Treatment of Apostates - extracted from J Stor

Based on the statements, from both the Journals and from the article's author on answering christianity.com on apostates, killing apostates is wrong - as in this case, the Koran wants Muslims to believe that it is between the individual apostate Islam and God. We can't just read one verse and ignore the rest - this is how many people have misinterpret the Koran and thinks that Islam is all violent. So, that's why it's important for all Muslims to read and expand their knowledge and not become ignorant and dangerous like the radical Muslims. If you've read various Koranic verses - you'll know it's wrong to kill an apostate. Every Muslim has been given guidance as set in the Koran. They have the choice to follow it or not follow it - know that if one obeys God, they will So, Muslims are to leave God to judge with them. You have to understand when the verses are applied/what are they for, and what they mean.

--Fantastic4boy 05:27, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Add new section: Ex-muslim organizations

We need to add a new section "Ex-Muslims Organizations and groups" and add:

Thats all I can think of. --Matt57 (talk•contribs) 14:10, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removed comment in early section

The ulema and so-called broader group of Islamic scholars maintain only that which advances Arab supremacy and not what is truly recorded in the Holy Qu'ran, which is that all Muslims are brothers...instead, they continue to suport the killing of Shia all over the world, and other sects which are not of the same fanatical Jihaddism.

The links following this comment do not support it, but support the sentence before. This seems to be a slur on Islamic scholars (and Sunnis in general in terms of killing Shia) that, even if true, does not belong here. --User:Umdunno 14:50, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] A link was removed as 'link spam'

I added a link because it seemed related to Apostasy in Islam - it was removed about 90 mins after posting labeled as 'link spam' - what constitutes as link spam? It was important because it discusses the opposing view point on how punishment for apostasy is not death. I am unable to figure out the policy for that, can someone please clarify? Thanks (The link was outgoing to domain omeriqbal.com) 67.42.86.189 13:04, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Hi, What Wikipedia is not along with the External links guidelines govern what links are suitable for inclusion in an article. In general, links to blogs are not acceptable unless they are "written by a recognized authority". Additionally, it is preferable to link to external sites which can be regarded as reliable sources but the contents cannot be used in the article itself (example reasons given in WP:EL). Hope that clarifies. → AA (talk) — 13:19, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Prescribed or proscribed?

Moved from main:

However, in the following verse killing of apostates is prescribed [Qur'an 4:89].Nils Dacke (talk) 10:13, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

It's odd to use 4:89 without also mentioning 4:90, which seems to prohibit violence against non-violent apostates. The whole thing looks something like this:

89 They would dearly like you to reject faith, as they themselves have done, to be like them. So do no take them as allies until they migrate [to Medina] for God's cause. If they turn [on you], then seize and kill them wherever you encounter them. Take none of them as an ally or supporter. 90 But as for those who seek refuge with people with whom you have a treaty, or who come over to you because their hearts shrink from fighting against you or against their own people, God could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you. So if they withdraw and do not fight you, and offer you peace, then God gives you no way against them.
-- M. A. S. Abdel Haleem translation

Emphasis mine. Verse 91 continues in a similarly caveat-filled manner. So to say that this bit "prescribes" killing apostates is a bit misleading. Evercat (talk) 02:29, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] QA websites

the website states that by using the death penalty, one must understand that conversion to islam is a total commitment...yet failing to regard the majority who were born into the religion(what of them?)Domsta333 (talk) 02:50, 6 May 2008 (UTC)