Talk:Apologetic apostrophe

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Northern Ireland, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to Northern Ireland on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the assessment scale.If you are a member of the project, please rate the article and then leave comments here to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article.
WikiProject Northern Ireland tasks: Here are some open WikiProject Northern Ireland tasks: Places: Mussenden Temple and Downhill Demesne, Devenish Island Monastic Site, Killyclogher, Derryvore Landmarks: The Skerries (Northern Ireland), Black Pig's Dyke, Helen's Tower Parks and gardens: Events: Ulster Cup, Ulster hockey People: Alison Campbell, Paul Charles (novelist), Paula Clamp, Max Clendinning, Colin Cooper (academic), Newton Emerson, Lucy Evangelista, Robert Hall (doctor), Shauna Gunn, Sophie Hoopman, H Douglas Keith, Charles Michael Lavery QC, Henry Lavery, Francis Maginn, Jim Malley, Catherine Jean Milligan, Phillip McCallen, Robert MacDonnell, Joseph Tomelty, Gayle Williamson, Zane Radcliffe, Professor Richard Rose, Brian Baird (newsreader) Newspapers/Magazines: Fortnight Magazine 'Schools/Colleges: Glenola Collegiate School, Our Lady and St Patrick's College, Belfast Boy's Model School, St. Columbanus' College, Streets: Rivers: River Bush, River Mourne, River Moyola, River Roe Organisations: Industrial Development Board, Forest Service Northern Ireland, Rivers Agency Northern Ireland, Invest NI, Roads Service Northern Ireland, Child Support Agency (NI), Boundary Commission for Northern Ireland, District Policing Partnerships, Compensation Agency, Office of the Oversight Commissioner, Electoral Office for Northern Ireland, Northern Ireland Housing Executive, Central Services Agency, Northern Ireland Blood Transfusion Service, Census Office in Northern Ireland, Northern Ireland Statistics and Research Agency, Cameron Commission, Hunt Committee, Stanley Leisure, Ormo, Sunblest (currently re-directs) History: Rose Report, History of Armagh, History of Newry, History of Lisburn Buildings: Belvoir Park Hospital, Guildhall, Derry Major topics: Geography of Northern Ireland, Geology of Northern Ireland, Integrated Education Edit or discuss this list.

[edit] Unreferenced

We don't have any specific sources for this article, and some of the statements seem either POV or misguided. Who's to say whether the apostrophe in some words is "apologetic" or simply used for diaresis-type reasons? Gien might be pronounced Gyne or Geen, when it should be Gee-en (please forgive my perception of Scots vowel, if I am misunderstood). At this moment, we simply don't know. Please add proper citations. -- Boothman _Talk 19:03, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Of course it's "POV"! It's describing a point of view within a linguistic tradition that is current in Scots language circles, so the POV is perfectly legitimate. "Gien" would not be pronounced "gee-en" in Scots, as the vowels would be artificially lengthened to sound more English. All grammatical rules are at some point or another a "POV" (or maybe a "P'O'V'") as they are decided for state education purposes. The denial of "apologetic grammar" is in fact no less POV and could be described as "apologetic contention". ممتاز 21:28, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

So how would "gien" be pronounced Mr. Arabic Name? I am on about diaresis, an apostrophe to signify that "ie" is pronounced as two vowels rather than one dipthong. -- Boothman _/tɔːk/ 19:14, 15 May 2007 (UTC).

Salaam alaykum sayyid ism injeleezee (Peace be upon you Mr English name:}) it would be pronounced with a dipthongless vowel consisting of two letters, a Scots concept, that renders apostrophying an unnecesary burden to the typer.ممتاز 19:30, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Which diphthongless vowel? By the way, I have an English name because this is the English Wikipedia. -- Boothman _/tɔːk/ 19:39, 15 May 2007 (UTC).

Thats great to hear, but I never realised you needed an English name to contribute in English:}. The vowel is one sound "ie" would be pronounced undipthongised. thus no need to add a marker for an "absent" letter. (since there is nothing missing in the Scots word, merely in the English slang version of "given"ممتاز 19:43, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Which dipthongless vowel? Short "i", rhyming gien with "bin" or long "ee" rhyming gien with "seen"? Or another? I am simply hypothesising that the apostrophe was placed there to make it "gee-en" (with a schwa for the e). -- Boothman _/tɔːk/ 19:48, 15 May 2007 (UTC).

That starting from a falce premise. Scots ortography is not the same as English, and its regarded as apologetic since "gien" is the complete word (pronounced as in "teen") It's not short for given (thats a given in Scots, unlike English):}ممتاز 19:52, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

That's all I needed, "gien" rhymes with "teen". I never said "Scots ortography [sic] is not the same as English" (whatever that means), and I never said owt about it being short for "given", although the pronunciation may have been similar seen as the two words "given" and "gien" are from the same root. -- Boothman _/tɔːk/ 19:55, 15 May 2007 (UTC).

Take a look at the roots of other words in dutch, High German, frissian, Middle English, Sanskrit...There all "slang versions " of Hittite forms at some point. The point is that having established their own orthographic variants, its rather starnge to note the "missing" letters with an apostrophe:}ممتاز 19:59, 15 May 2007 (UTC) In fact "twa" is found in Frisian for "two" as in Scotsممتاز 20:00, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Süsterspraak is Plattdüütsch for schwestersprache (sister-language). Maybe they should use some sort of marker on Low german words with Ks instead of CHs to indicate the "slang usage" of this alternative to the "correct High German form"?:}ممتاز 20:05, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

I would carry on arguing with you, but it is like talking to a brick wall. -- Boothman _/tɔːk/ 20:23, 15 May 2007 (UTC).

You must have rather informative bricks where you live:}ممتاز 20:25, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure whether I should comment on this old argument since it has stopped, but to clear things up... It is indeed pronounced "gee-en" in my dialect at least. But the apostrophe is still inappropriate because the basic word is gie ("gee") so - as is my understanding - if the apostrophe was going to be anywhere, without being apologetic, it would surely be after the e (perhaps gie'en) compare to the Scots word e'en (even) as opposed to een (eye), which is pronounced differently. However, this is purely from a non-expert point of view, and is entirely irrelevant since the fact remains that traditionally the Past participle of gie is spelt gien (which can be sourced). Scroggie (talk) 05:39, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Northern Ireland?

I know a dialect of Scots is spoken in Northern Ireland (Ulster Scots), but this article seems to be about Scots in general, with all the references being to Scots in Scotland, as far as I can see. Surely either both WikiProjects Scotland and Northern Ireland, or just WikiProject Scotland, would be more appropriate? I haven't edited anything because I'm not sure how the whole project thing works, and I don't want to step on anyone's toes! Thirda 14:13, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Apologetic apostrophe in Scottish Gaelic

I've deleted this section, partly because no reference was given for the claims it made, and partly because it got some aspects of Gaelic spelling wrong. "'S e" is still usually written "'S e", not "Se". The apostrophes in "'S e" and "a' Ghàidhlig" aren't there in order to pretend Gaelic is a bastardised form of Irish, they're there as genuine abbreviations for words which do occur in full elsewhere in Scottish Gaelic. "'S e" is short for "is e": the full word "is" is almost always used when, say, stating one's name ("Is mise Iain", for example); the singular definite article "an" occurs all over the place, and is only abbreviated to "a'" in some contexts, where the sounds don't flow very well. Some apostrophes have been eliminated in the proposed changes to Gaelic orthography, e.g., "do an" ("to the") which has historically been written "do'n", is now recommended to be spelled "don". As I understand it, however, this was proposed because Gaelic's very heavy use of abbreviations was leading to an unwieldy number of apostrophes, NOT because they aren't genuine abbreviations of Scottish Gaelic (as opposed to Irish) words/phrases. Thirda 14:35, 25 October 2007 (UTC)