User talk:Antelan/Archives/2007/August

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EVP rewrite

I want your input on whether or not you'd be willing to participate in a rewrite of the EVP article. It would work in the same way as the Parapsychology article in that I do the rewrite and make the needed changes and then invite everyone to the talk page of the article to provide input and make proposed changes. Wikidudeman (talk) 00:07, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Your resilience in the face of absurdity is impressive. I'll stick things out with parapsychology, but the pro-paranormalists are indefatigable in finding new ways to WP:OWN articles, as evidenced by EVP. The ArbCom has only emboldened their efforts and reinforced their fallacious ideas of neutrality and veracity; consequently, I'm not able to stomach any more on that article, but I wish you well if you decide it's worth pursuing. Antelan talk 00:24, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
If I rewrote the article, Would you be willing to make proposals for improvements once it's re-written on a draft page? Wikidudeman (talk) 00:40, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
I'll certainly contribute my thoughts when solicited. Thanks, and best of luck. Antelan talk 02:20, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
Isn't it too bad ArbCom is so misguided? Martinphi (Talk Ψ Contribs) 03:17, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
This type of baiting is exactly the type of thing that I'm not willing to deal with, Martin. Antelan talk 02:16, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
Is it baiting? You said "the pro-paranormalists are indefatigable in finding new ways to WP:OWN articles, as evidenced by EVP. The ArbCom has only emboldened their efforts and reinforced their fallacious ideas of neutrality and veracity;" I know you consider me among the "pro-paranormalists," so you just said I OWN articles, have fallacious ideas of neutrality, and that I in some way lack veracity. All I said, was that it's too bad -for you- that ArbCom thinks the way I do, not the way you do. Try not calling people liars- unless you have a specific reason, in which case it can be dealt with civilly. Martinphi (Talk Ψ Contribs) 03:18, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
Here's an explanation through a parallel: when someone says that the Americans invaded Iraq, they don't mean that you personally invaded Iraq. And your "liar" bit - I never called you a liar, and that sentiment is not even in line with the spirit of my comments. You're having a strong reaction to something that I never said, which is, frankly, a bit confusing. Not as confusing as your insistence that the "ArbCom has confirmed" that you were attempting to "NPOV" articles [1], but still confusing. Antelan talk 04:41, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
Hmm...Wikidudeman (talk) 02:18, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Wikidudemans RFA withdrawn

Hey, I've decided to regretfully withdrawal my RFA. Based on the numbers I don't believe it would have ever been successful. It seemed to have gotten off to a bad start and then went down hill from there. It's very unfortunate that it turned out the way it did however I do appreciate your participation. Thanks. Wikidudeman (talk) 00:47, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Collaboration on Vitamin C megadosage

Thanks for your comments. I would appreciate collaboration on the page to bring the citations up to standard. Would you be willing to lend a hand? Djma12 (talk) 14:21, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, certainly. This is an article that is controversial enough that we should check the sources out to ensure that they corroborate the statements made in Wikipedia. I'll start a tally on the talk page so we don't duplicate our efforts. Antelan talk 14:24, 2 August 2007 (UTC)


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Arbitrators are not gods

However, here is what the Arbitrator actually said:

I don't follow your logic that we are limited to the three choices you outline. I believe that the decision is clear as it stands regarding the use of the term. I don't think there is necessarily anything wrong with the psychic article vis a vis this matter. I realize that those editors who place particular weight on debunking paranormal phenomenon may not agree with the decision. I hope they will respect it nonetheless. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 04:37, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Martinphi (Talk Ψ Contribs) 07:33, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

"The Merriam-Webster 3rd New International Dictionary (1993), which I consider to be highly authoritative and perhaps more attuned to current usage than the OED, offers this relevant definition: "2 psychic n -s : 1 a person apparently sensitive to nonphysical forces." I believe that this concurs with the Wikipedia usage. The OED definition you cite appears to correspond to the "1 psychic" definition in M-W, which is a usage more philosophical than paranormal. I do not have an OED at hand to review any other definitions it may offer, though I am confident that the OED has many others beyond the one you identify. I would conclude that the Wikipedia usage is not unique or unsupported. Finally, since the Wikipedia article clarifies our intended usage, I believe that readers both casual and astute will understand that the use of the term does not imply the presence of actual psychic abilities confirmed by the scientific method. In conclusion, the decision is sound as it stands. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 03:12, 4 August 2007 (UTC)" Antelan talk 07:36, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Being a disruptive POV editor won't get you what you want. It's this kind of behavior the ArbCom was supposed to stop. It will stop. Martinphi (Talk Ψ Contribs) 07:41, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Those are hefty allegations. I've quoted to you the relevant statement by the arbitrators. If you believe that my edits, based on the Arbitrators' clarifications, are truly disruptive POV editing, I encourage you to bring an RfC so I can be corrected by impartial individuals. Antelan talk 07:44, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
dropping by, I've said elsewhere that I think psychic a neutral term. It describes someone claiming to have paranormal powers, without stating the validity or honesty of the claim. For a believer, it represents positively exactly what they claim to do. For a skeptic, on the other hand, it's as negative as possible: it will always be self delusion or deliberate deceit. I agree with Antelan--and ArbCom. "Alleged psychic" is meaningless to me--the adjective is implicit in the noun. DGG (talk) 22:42, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Hand Hygiene

This article was revised to conform to Wikipedia format before your tags were placed on the article. It is not written like a "magazine" and the references are excellent and supportable. I do not agree with your assessment and as author I am removing you tags. Please do not retag the article until you justify any future tags on the Hand Hygiene talk page first. Thank you for your cooperation.--JSHibbard 19:20, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm responding on your talk page. Antelan talk 19:40, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

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Could you take a look?

We are trying to find a source for this list: Talk:List_of_Skull_and_Bones_members#RfC_Summary. Could you take a look and see if you can help? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:36, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Hi Jossi. I'm not at Yale anymore (was there for undergrad but am now at Hopkins for med school) so I won't be able to rummage through Dean Salovey's house to steal some old records anytime soon. However, I've posted on the talk page regarding recent, living members. Let me know if there's more I can do. Cheers, Antelan talk 16:49, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the citation checking.

The Barnstar of Diligence
For tireless citation checking in Vitamin C megadosage, I hereby present this barnstar. Djma12 (talk) 22:36, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your input

You wrote, True, but the irony that you pointed out was pretty damn funny.

I stood corrected for my incivility, but was gratified that my sense of irony was appreciated by another Wikipedian. Sometimes it's hard not to scream about some of the stuff I correct. But, hey, that's why we edit, right? Preston McConkie 08:22, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Absolutely. If everyone argued in humorous terms, Wikipedia would be an even more enjoyable place. Antelan talk 15:03, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

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NYU in popular culture

This article was recently deleted and I am submitting it for deletion review. As I see you supported keeping Yale in popular culture - an article almost exactly the same as NYU in popular culture - please support me in restoring this page. As the creator of the page I plan on bringing it to the level of Wikipedia in culture should it be restored. Please comment on the process here: Wikipedia:Deletion_review/Log/2007_August_14#NYU_in_popular_culture. Your support is appreciated. Thanks. -- Noetic Sage 23:32, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

I haven't seen the article, so I tried to support you in as neutral and legitimate way as possible given the circumstances. Antelan talk 00:04, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

speedy

see my talk page--interesting & instructive sequence of events. DGG (talk) 15:18, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Hah, even more complicated than I had made it out to be :-) Antelan talk 23:58, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

The future of the "Osteopathic medicine" articles

{{osteopathic medicine}} I saw you posts on WPMED and Requests for Feedback. A few points to consider:

  1. I too share your value that these articles should contain zero fluff, nor do I want the tone to be that of an advertisement.
  2. I can now see how the content of these articles may be effectively consolidated into 2, or perhaps even one article. I do not think the time for that is now, but I see how it may be possible, with some skillful editing, to merge some content at some point in the future.
  3. I cannot express in strong enough words how much I appreciate your feedback and continuing interest in these articles. I feel the articles are better because of your careful attention; knowing your eyes are tending to these words has pushed me towards a higher standard of objectivity and verifiability. I am very grateful for your assistance.
  4. I ask for your continued assistance and also your patience, as I try to continue to expand the breadth of content in these articles, with the exclusive goal of providing meaningful, accurate, unbiased and noteworthy content to the readers.
Touro OsteopathicFreak T 19:59, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

(note: the template for osteopathic medicine no longer categorizes the articles in which it appears, as per your suggestion.)

I've responded here. Antelan talk 22:07, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
I replied here. Touro OsteopathicFreak T 23:07, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Conflict of interest

As someone currently earning an M.D. degree, you have a conflict of interest in editing an article about that degree.

Self-policing of any group is also a conflict of interest. If any organization, such as a corporation or government bureaucracy, is asked to eliminate unethical behavior within their own group, it may be in their interest in the short run to eliminate the appearance of unethical behavior, rather than the behavior itself, by keeping any ethical breaches hidden, instead of exposing and correcting them.

And also:

Closeness to a subject does not mean you're incapable of being neutral, but it may incline you towards some bias. Be guided by the advice of other editors. If editors on a talk page suggest in good faith that you may have a conflict of interest, try to identify and minimize your biases, and consider withdrawing from editing the article. As a rule of thumb, the more involvement you have with a topic in real life, the more careful you should be with our core content policies — Wikipedia:Neutral point of view and Wikipedia:Attribution — when editing in that area.

I think it is possible for you to be neutral in this discussion despite your close connection with the topic, but I also think you are greatly exaggerating the veracity of the claim that "allopathic" is a pejorative: in the year 2007, in the United States. We have had reasonable and respectfully toned conversations about our mutual biases before. I would like to have a similarly toned conversation again.Touro OsteopathicFreak T 22:27, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I am not the one changing the articles on medicine. You are a member of a minority group within medicine, making changes to the articles on medicine and using your favored qualifier, "allopathic". I was under the impression that you were aware that your editing previously had been tendentious. Apparently I was misinformed. Antelan talk 22:35, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

OK. I don't have a major problem with keeping the pejorative reference. But I'd like it too be better sourced. Touro OsteopathicFreak T 23:24, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Allopathic medicine . . . pejorative?

Your source says nothing about this being a pejorative term. In fact, it makes it pretty clear that its not. http://www.cancer.gov/Templates/db_alpha.aspx?CdrID=454742 Touro OsteopathicFreak T 00:43, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Find a diff where I said that source noted the pejorative usage of "allopathic" and I will paypal you $10. Antelan talk 00:45, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

You've repeatedly, vociferously insisted that the term is controversial, contentious and pejorative when it is clearly not. You've refused to acknowledge that it is used frequently by reputable sources in a neutral sense, with no mention of osteopathic anything. Such a usage is seen in the source you cited on User talk:Adam Cuerden, http://www.cancer.gov/Templates/db_alpha.aspx?CdrID=454742Touro OsteopathicFreak T 00:51, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

It seems as though you're responding not to what I said, but to what you think I've said. Antelan talk 01:07, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
I was clarifying my first statement. I think you thought I was implying that you'd cited this reference [2]as proof that the term is pejorative. I wasn't. I was responding to your claim that the term is pejorative, elsewhere. I was pointing out that you are now citing a source that refers to the non pejorative use of the term allopathic medicine. Does that make sense? Sorry for the confusion.Touro OsteopathicFreak T 01:43, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Name Change

Hi - I thought my name sends the wrong message. I wanted to let you know that I changed it. User:OsteopathicFreak is now TU Hopping T 15:33, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Fetus

Thanks for your message. I'll reply at the fetus talk page.Ferrylodge 21:21, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Ref:Citing sources

I was looking for something like that but specific to the Med Project, you know, that says "this article is within the scope of the ....." and says also (as the one you left for me) please improve your sources or so, even if there one with space for giving some pinpointing. Give a look in the ones at [[WP:TRUEORIG], something like that but for the Medicine Project(and join if you want to ) Thanks Jennylen 21:54, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

What do you think about this one that I cobbled together by essentially stealing from Histref: {{Medref}} ? Antelan talk 22:00, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
That is exactly what I was thinking, great! JennyLen 22:16, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
Thanks! Antelan talk 22:19, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
 :::Afterthought: Seriously, how you feel about joining the WP:TORIG, is new but with a very important purpose. When you are around helping with medical articles, you can also check for lack of history and origins references. If you feel for it you will be most welcome. if not feeling for it, no problem JennyLen 22:22, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
Sure. It sounds important and fun. Thanks! Antelan talk 22:45, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Welcome!

Welcome! Great that you joined, Thanks JennyLen 00:35, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes! It's great to see an other medical student in the stuff! Enjoy being a Wikipedian! :) If you have any kind of question, just drop me a line. And also if you're interested in maintaing the Portal:Medicnie, you'd be welcome! NCurse work 09:04, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

G'day

G'day and welcome to the WP:TORIG hope you enjoy our tasks Daoken 19:10, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! I'll see what I can contribute. Great idea for a multidisciplinary project, by the way. Antelan talk 19:13, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Hi there

How is the situation at the Psychic surgery page, can you give me a short account of who is defending what there? I got lost really. Also in what point is now the whole thing and what you propose to complete that task and move on? JennyLen 15:38, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Ornis and I feel that some mention of the fraudulent nature of this practice should be made early - in the first sentence if possible, and at least within the first paragraph. At the very least, I feel that the practice should not be given more of an air of legitimacy here than it is given in our sources. I believe that this is in line with NPOV, WP:UNDUE, and the other guidelines.
Martinphi and Dreadstar feel that all fraud-related material belongs within its own paragraph after a description of what some psychic surgeons do.
Another issue is with regards to the description itself of psychic surgery. Our sources talk about it as sleight of hand, but the article's intro initially describes it in a sympathetic (in my opinion, not yet neutral) fashion.
Martinphi has argued for descriptions that do not make it clear whether or not what the psychic surgeon is doing is real or not. Since all available sources say that it is sleight of hand (or something equivalent), I am inclined to note this within the description of the procedure itself, whether or not fraud is mentioned within the first paragraph.
These are the issues at the moment as I see them; how to proceed is a good question. Antelan talk 16:12, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
If the sources really do define it that way, consistently, then we could use that definition. I've looked at a lot of the sources used in the article, and they don't define it that way. That's the problem. –––Martinphi (Talk Ψ Contribs) 16:28, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Memory of water

You made a good point there. I requested better historical references Librarian2 17:07, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. I'll see what I can find if the people who've been working on that article are not interested in the next few days. Also, apologies for dragging you into the Psychic Surgery article - it's a tough one, even though there is, I think, a willingness to work together and general agreement over the facts on the ground. I am confident, though that we'll make it into a respectable article. Antelan talk 18:02, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Re: Procedural definitions

I very much think that you are right, but you are missing strategy, you need to get that approved in a way that allows future further editions, not in what you see as the "perfect" form, please bear with me. Lets achieve a neutral form, later, when the controversy section tips the balance in the direction of the more solid sources, changes in the main definition will follow with no margin to discussion. I am not meaning strategy from the point of view of entrapment but from the point of view of allowing neutral balance for securing a position which will allow you to demonstrate the validity of your arguments by their own weight. Librarian2 19:03, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

I just think that the definition for this contentious article should not depart from the text. As far as I know, my version is the only one that can offer direct textual support for its wording. If you or another can work on a version that, likewise, has textual support, I will be more than happy to make suggestions. I am not going to spin my wheels, though, arguing over synthetic introductions that do not find support in an identifiable place in a reliable source. Antelan talk 19:09, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

I think you missed my point Librarian2 19:19, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

I interpreted the crux of your point as Lets achieve a neutral form, later, when the controversy section tips the balance in the direction of the more solid sources, changes in the main definition will follow with no margin to discussion; if that is so, I must disagree on principle. [[3]] states, Get the lead right first. Construct an introduction for the article as if it were a good encyclopedia page, even if it has not yet arrived at that point. The point of this page-locked cooling off period is for us to achieve good form now, not later. Antelan talk 19:29, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
I have to agree with L2 here, too. Find a neutral, agreeable form for the introduction. And remember, both of those paragraphs are in the lead section, which is what introduces the subject. And perhaps you are right, the subject should be initially framed from the very first sentence by its detractors, but I don't think you'll find much support for that. ArbCom pretty much ruled the same for Paranormal articles. Adequate framing applies here too. But I may be wrong, so feel free to check with Uninvited Co. or Fred Bauder on this issue - I think its sufficiently paranormal to check with them vis-à-vis the paranormal decision. In the end, I think this will fall under ArbCom Paranormal ruling 6.2; and besides, I don't think anyone mistakes this article for a medical article...it's obviously para-something...;) Dreadstar † 19:21, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
"I don't think anyone mistakes this article for a medical article...it's obviously para-something..." That is where you are dead wrong. This is a medically oriented article, even if it covers a fraudulent medical practice, and we have a duty to our readers. We have reliable sources that document how very sick people were duped and ultimately died. I'm not going to sit here and let you tell me that it's not medically related, sorry. Antelan talk 19:32, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
I never said it wasn't 'medically-related'. The prime driver here is "psychic", with a strong secondary for "surgery". I compare it less to Chemotherapy than I would to, say, Voodoo, for instance... Dreadstar † 22:18, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
"I don't think anyone mistakes this article for a medical article" "I never said it wasn't 'medically-related'" - Split hairs much? Antelan talk 23:32, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
Just splittin' logs, my friend...;) Dreadstar † 04:21, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
I think you'll find that Wikipedia:Arguments to avoid in deletion discussions applies to more than just deletion discussions, and I think it applies to your proposal to consider "what article X says". Dreadstar † 19:27, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
Not only is it not relevant to non-deletion-discussions, it's also from an essay - not a policy or a guideline. Antelan talk 19:30, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
Um, the pinciple is the same. Compare with Policy/guideline instead of "article x". That's my suggestion. Dreadstar † 22:18, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
About We have reliable sources that document how very sick people were duped and ultimately died. yes you are correct but may appear someone challenging in full right with a quantum biology source of latest research showing people healed by own belief. Those are dangerous waters, the latest research may indicate that while the psychic surgery is a fraud, the spontaneous reversions of disorders could obey to the belief of the patient, someone with time and know-how can pop up dozens of respected latest researches on that field or placebo studies, you know that. One last time, gain a firm step not just loose it for wanting a leap. Lets firm up the article Librarian2 19:54, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
Agreed. Dreadstar † 20:02, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Psychosomatic illness

On other subject, would you help with that one ? Psychosomatic illness Librarian2 19:26, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Controversy (Psychic surgery)

Would you like to give a look in the controversy section leading parragraph ? Librarian2 20:49, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Again, I find no policy support for partitioning the lead into what now amounts to a "pro" and "con", and I find no textual support in the way that you and Dreadstar have chosen to word things. Clearly my views of how this article should be worded have become irrelevant, since I am mocked both when I cite sources and when I point to articles that work similarly to how I envision this one to work. I'm not exactly sure what you want me to say, although I appreciate that you're trying to keep me involved. Antelan talk 23:38, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Origins group

since you started the group I wonder what your view of the purpose of this group is --is it primarily to deal with the paranormal? I am not 100% happy with that, as there are already a number of such projects. In particular, I think WikiProject Paranormal has been doing excellent work, & I don't see the need to duplicate. If it's alternative medicine, I think the focus should be specifically declared. Of course I can & will say something on the project talk page, but I wondered what you had in mind. DGG (talk) 22:35, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Hi DGG - I'm not sure if this message is intended for me, since I didn't start the Origins group. (Update: Because someone rearranged the list alphabetically, I can see how you'd think that I started the group.) After the Paranormal ArbCom, I unwatched paranormal articles so as to avoid the battles that had consumed other editors, such as ScienceApologist. However, I took an interest in psychic healing because of its relevance to medicine; I don't consider it to be of particular paranormal relevance, but if WP:Paranormal thinks it's interesting, I've got no problem with that. With regards to alternative medicine, I only personally took interest in the articles after I discovered some overly bold editing occurring with some conventional medicine articles. Let me know if I'm not really getting at the questions you're asking. Antelan talk 22:52, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
I agree certainly with the need for work on the "medical" articles. I had however hoped that the more general language would represent a more general approach. Pseudo science and its technologies are relatively easy to deal with as compared to pseudo-social science (a neologist of my own, I think)--there are some real challenges there. The pseudo history in WP is quite amazing. DGG (talk) 04:13, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
I'd probably need guidance to be able to pick out the less obvious articles (outside of my field) with false/skewed/biased histories, although I can certainly recognize when an article altogether lacks a history of the origins of its subject. That said, I'm actively interested in learning how to go about this. Regarding medical articles: I'm also a WP:MED participant, which probably better explains my focus on med-related articles than my Origins membership would. I don't intend to push the Origins group towards a focus on medical articles by an means; I believe and hope that the current focus has more to do with the med-skewed membership than with any intentional bias within the group.
Reflecting upon your comments, perhaps I've been applying the Origins banner too liberally. There are some areas where I've used the Origins banner instead of the WP:Med banner in order to be unoffensive. For example, the water memory page might conceivably fall under WP:MED because of the medical claims associated with it. However, I felt it might come off as paternalistic or even offensive to some, so instead I went with Origins label (since the historical origin of the concept is not discussed in the article at all but would be informative).
As usual, this is a verbose reply from me. The gist: I'll try to work on Origins projects beyond just the med sphere, especially if I can get some guidance or examples of articles that have subtle pseudo-histories. Thanks, Antelan talk 04:30, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
I created the WP:TRUEORIG and it is truly multidisciplinary, I will explain to DGG. You don't worry and keep the good work, you are doing just fine. Just be precise under which banner you work for avoiding those misunderstandings. Good job Daoken 14:47, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

H

Hi , I saw you categorized a task at WP:TORIG with H, how can I help ? Come to WP:TORIG talkpage so you can tell me more Daoken 18:54, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Oh, I thought that H meant that we had asked for help from other editors on the page (which I had done). I'll remove the H for now since I don't think help from other TORIG members is needed on that article at this point (I haven't run out of my own resources for investigating its history yet). Antelan talk 18:58, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
It is mostly when you feel you need other TORIG editor with some expertise in a field you don't manage too good, but I will add a --C-- for when you have engaged cooperation from other editors (non TORIG) and --CP-- when you have engaged cooperation from other projects, thanks for the idea. By the way, how is going? Daoken 19:11, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for asking. I'm at the office, so I'm trying to keep my WP involvement to a minimum today. Just fyi, another editor stated that he preferred to have the banner at the bottom of the water memory page. Since it's not a question of accuracy or neutrality, I'm inclined to think that we should go along with his wishes on this one. Antelan talk 19:26, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
You are right Daoken 01:53, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

WP:TORIG is now WP:TIMETRACE (also WP:TIMET)

WikiProject True Origins WP:TORIG is now WikiProject Timeline Tracer WP:TIMETRACE also WP:TIMET. This follows many opinions that teh previous name of the project could confuse or provide negative feelings in some users.

I read your name proposals after I made the changes, I am sorry because there was one I liked, I hope that this name serves well. Daoken 02:00, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

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PSurgery

Please check out the latest version for approval. Dreadstar † 19:34, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Loved your remarks

Antelan, I just checked into your page because of a short, humorous and much-appreciated remark you left on mine. I discovered that we must be kindred spirits; I, too, am shaking my head in wonder at the intrusion of ideology into science articles. I recently discovered the gut-wrenching description of the Technology portal, which reads more like a lecture from an anthropology textbook. I registered my objections in the talk page after discovering that there was no way to edit the portal introduction.

I know dealing with this stuff tiring, as you point out. But I hope to lend my spare time to steering Wikipedia back toward the encyclopedic mainstream. I also hope your strength is renewed during your Wikibreak, and that you return ready to work to re-establish sanity and logic. Preston McConkie 16:21, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Homeopathy draft

Can you take another look at the Homeopathy draft? I think it's looking very good and I would appreciate some more input. It has drastically improved since its creation and any input would be great. Thanks. Wikidudeman (talk) 23:05, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

WP:TIMETRACE has been enhanced, give a look

WikiProject Timeline Tracer has been greatly enhanced with Guidelines and Strategy as well as many alternatives which will make your editions more easy to target, easier to tag or comment and much more. Please go to WP:TIMETRACE, give a look in the new tools and get busy helping articles. Remember that this WikiProject is helping the backbone (beyond content) of all articles , Reliable Sources and Verification. Thank you for participating Daoken 11:10, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Mediation suspended

It seems that one of the parties took a Wikibreak. It is most unfortunate to not have received any communication in this regard. This mediation cannot continue without the parties therefore has been suspended. Daoken 11:51, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Fringe Elements

Dear Antelan,

I understand your frustration in dealing with Fringe elements within Wikipedia -- I have had the same frustrations nearly since my first edit. I would, however, respectfully request that you reconsider your decision to avoid controversial topics. I find that many of my patients use Wikipedia as a source concerning cancer therapies and theories. As physicians and future physicians, I feel that we have an obligation to keep the public well and accurately informed.

Med school is a long a trying process, and should take precedent in your life. I have, however, enjoyed working with another honest and well-informed editor, and hope to continue this collaboration in the future.

Djma12 (talk) 14:06, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Contact

Would you care to contact me and tell me what happened with the mediation you requested from me Daoken 11:36, 27 August 2007 (UTC)?

Homeopathy rewrite

Hey Antelan, I plan to implement the homeopathy rough draft( link) by September 1st, 5 days from now. Unless of course more proposals are made to change it, in which case I will postpone the implementation until it is ready and agreed upon. Some things concerning the rough draft are still in discussions, which can easily continue once it goes live. An example is the inclusion of mentions of Jacques Benveniste. Other things can easily be fixed after a week or so of copy editors from the general public going over it and removing redundancy and rewording sentences to be more brief and precise, which will cut down size of the article including the lead without removing relevant info. So If by September 1st I receive no more suggestions on improving the rough draft then I will replace the Homeopathy article with it. If you see problems with the draft, please make suggestions on improving it. Even if the suggestions might have already been made, just make a new post with the suggestions so that we can discuss them. Here is the link to the rough draft again: Link to rough draft. Thanks. Wikidudeman (talk) 13:25, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

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