User talk:Antandrus/Archive2

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Archive #2 from my talk page: November 2004 to mid-February 2005

[edit] Vogl, Britannica

Hi Antandrus--

Nice Vogl article! Hoping it's true, I added in the Fidelio bit. Perhaps Schubert was buying up all the Vogl tickets he could afford...

I also enjoyed your comments about the 1911 edition, particularly the bits about chewing gum and Tovey scribbling frantically on the back of an envelope. So hopefully we feel mutually encouraged to edit this stuff liberally.

Cheers, Opus33 21:23, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit]

Hi Antandrus, and thanks for the note. I've had an enforced break from Wikipedia for a bit, but hope to return to regular editing in a few days. I expect I'll look at some music articles as part of that - must admit, when I stuck my head in here today I looked at a lot of arbitration stuff, which depressed me a bit; but then I stumbled across a few new music articles which cheered me up a bit :) Great to see you and Opus are still around - hope to join you soon. --Camembert

[edit] Etcetera

<<moved from User:Antandrus/temp>>

Hello Antandrus. Wasn't sure whether this page is open to all comers to make changes or not, so thought I'd be discrete and just mention one spelling error (virtuoso, not virtuouso). I've always been fascinated by Alkan, and wonder if you can verify either way the story about the bookshelf and the Talmud. I recently heard/read somewhere that this is apocryphal. Cheers from down under JackofOz 21:44, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Admin vote

Thank you for supporting my nomination for adminship. It means a great deal to me.

Also - that vista image on your user page is beautiful! I'm assuming you took that?

Thanks again, ClockworkTroll 06:04, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] VfA

Posted on User:ClockworkTroll

You're welcome! And thanks for the compliment on the photo (it's a pretty view from up there, after a stiff climb). I've been noticing your work for a while and I think it's superb--keep it up! Best wishes and happy editing, Antandrus 06:07, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I'm flattered, thank you! Do you mind if I ask which work you've noticed? I always like to know what the highest profile edits are, so I can put some emphasis on them. ClockworkTroll 06:12, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- Certainly: what I really like is your interactions with other users, especially welcoming newcomers; your attention to VfD, which is a slum and avoided by many (including me sometimes... but I think it is a bit of a duty for us to labor in such unsavory locales from time to time); and also I just like your positive attitude. It's one of my favorite soapboxes too that people here don't spend enough time noticing the good work of others. Hope that answers your question! :-) Happy editing, Antandrus 06:22, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)
You're very kind, thank you. Actually, I kind of enjoy slumming in VfD from time to time. It keeps my "head in the game" so to speak. ClockworkTroll 06:27, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Ravenscroft

Where's Ravenscroft's manuscript located? As you might imagine, a guy who has scanned all of Ravenscroft's printed works would be interested in his unprinted ones, too. Greg Lindahl 23:28, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC) [user/timestamp added by Antandrus]

Hi Greg, I answered you on your talk page. Hope it helps! Antandrus 00:44, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for welcoming me to Wikipedia, my original user ID was 511. Unfortunately they've managed to break their user ID mechanism several times, so I have a couple of IDs. Anyway, thanks for the info, I didn't recall seeing it in the New Grove article when I looked at it a decade ago, and didn't make a copy... hey, Stanford has a copy of a thesis which contains a photocopy!

[edit] Heather

Thank you for that one... which is so darn obvious that I feel like an idiot for not having come up with it myself. :) func(talk) 05:52, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for the helpful back and forth regarding Brahms and his era!! (sorry for not starting a new section but seemed that one line was not, a '+'-for starting an edit section-for. ?!? :) ) Schissel 04:18, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Thank you

Thanks for your support and kind words on my RFA. The nomination has gone through; I'm an admin as of today. Cheers! Joyous 00:47, Nov 16, 2004 (UTC)

- Another thank you from yours truly for the nice note on my home page. Best, Lucky 6.9 22:53, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] My adminship request

Thanks for the support and the kind words. --jpgordon{gab} 04:19, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)

You're welcome; I hope the nomination goes through. Best, Antandrus 04:39, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] A quick note to say thanks

I just wanted to drop you a quick note to thank you for your support in my request for adminship. It was certainly a wild ride, and I really appreciate you taking some time out to contribute. ClockworkSoul 16:06, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] adminship

Posted on User_talk:ClockworkSoul

you're quite welcome! And I must say that Very has an interesting point above. :-) (Maybe someday we'll have a user named TroubledByTrolls... or UntroubledByTrolls...) Antandrus 16:13, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Stop it - you're making me want to change my name again! ;) ClockworkSoul 16:15, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Gustav Mahler

Hi, thanks for your welcome greetings on User talk:80.184.177.120. I agree to your statement of the key signature of Mahler's 5th symphony. BTW, the Dover Score states it as "Symphony No. 5 in C-sharp Minor/D-Major", which makes sense to me, too. But keep in mind, that it wasn't me, who objected against the key, but Mahler himself: "From the order of the movements (where the usual first movement now comes second) it is difficult to speak of a key for the 'whole Symphony', and to avoid misunderstandings the key should best be omitted." [1]

Just a bit about my person: I haven't created an account on the English Wikipedia so far, because I am mainly contributing to the German edition. cf. de:Benutzer:Wolfgang Nuss - Greetings from Frankfurt, Germany --80.184.177.120 20:06, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I'd answer you in German on de: but I'm too embarrassed by the badness of my German. Thank you for the link: I didn't know about Mahler's own objection to key on #5. Best, Antandrus 20:39, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Valerie Sohrweid

Hi! I am a 28 year old mother of five, and I am also a student that finds Wikipedia very helpful. For the general public to be able to edit and vandalize any page that they want,and you have to fix it must be a thankless job alot of the time. I had to revert your page on Thomas Jefferson because of Vandalism. I noticed that that version had an error also and I do not know how to fix them. But I thought that I would at least make sure that you knew about it. Any thoughts on Rousseau vs. Locke and who was more influential? Just kidding there are times when all of this fries the brain a little. Thanks! V. Sohrweid Please e-mail with receipt confirmation to val0025@juno.com

[edit] Article Licensing

Hi, I've started a drive to get users to multi-license all of their contributions that they've made to either (1) all U.S. state, county, and city articles or (2) all articles, using the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike (CC-by-sa) v1.0 and v2.0 Licenses or into the public domain if they prefer. The CC-by-sa license is a true free documentation license that is similar to Wikipedia's license, the GFDL, but it allows other projects, such as WikiTravel, to use our articles. Since you are among the top 1000 Wikipedians by edits, I was wondering if you would be willing to multi-license all of your contributions or at minimum those on the geographic articles. Over 90% of people asked have agreed. For More Information:

Multi-Licensing FAQ - Lots of questions answered
Multi-Licensing Guide
Free the Rambot Articles Project

To allow us to track those users who muli-license their contributions, many users copy and paste the "{{DualLicenseWithCC-BySA-Dual}}" template into their user page, but there are other options at Template messages/User namespace. The following examples could also copied and pasted into your user page:

Option 1

I agree to [[Wikipedia:Multi-licensing|multi-license]] all my contributions, with the exception of my user pages, as described below:

Option 2

I agree to [[Wikipedia:Multi-licensing|multi-license]] all my contributions to any [[U.S. state]], county, or city article as described below:

Or if you wanted to place your work into the public domain, you could replace "{{DualLicenseWithCC-BySA-Dual}}" with "{{MultiLicensePD}}". If you only prefer using the GFDL, I would like to know that too. Please let me know what you think at my talk page. It's important to know either way so no one keeps asking. – Ram-Man ^{(comment) (talk)}[[]] 15:35, Dec 9, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Pachelbel

Hi Antandrus, thanks for the back-up on the Pachelbel Canon article. I agree that the Schmelzer is a further (five-chord) example and will keep my eyes open for additional cases. Cheers, Opus33 16:05, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Ansel Admas

Thanks for helping me remember how to spell Asnel Adams. I'm always getting his name wrong. ;) And thanks for including that he was a pianist nearly as much as he was a photographer, devoting nearly as much time to the one pursuit as the other, from what I hear. Cheers. -Willmcw 08:26, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Schubert late quartets

Many thanks for the support (though there doesn’t seem an obvious place on the Schubert page to link this one to. May have to create one. At least this no longer feels like cheating!..) — Also a bit I need to add on the qt.14 page now I’ve been thinking about it *g* (Hrm. Category:Schubert compositions ... hrm...) Schissel‐bowl listen 18:06, Dec 24, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Block

No problem, he's been blocked. The speed of his edits worry me though -- I wonder if it could be a bot... I'll probably be on for a little while, so let me know if he comes back. Tuf-Kat 06:08, Dec 26, 2004 (UTC)

Thanks much. Definitely bot-like behavior: randompage, edit, select all, delete, save. Antandrus 06:18, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for help at Rail Band! Tuf-Kat

Nice reversion work on this...person today. I wish I had your patience. —Kdau 18:28, 2004 Dec 26 (UTC)

5000 edits in eight months, very nice... I see you could be convinced to accept an admin nomination, according to your userpage. I don't really know what to say to convince you, except that it really can be useful in fighting vandalism and dealing with complicated page moves, and it may be easier than it appears to stay out of controversy. Anyway, if you don't want to do it, that's fine, but let me know if you change your mind and I'll nominate you. Tuf-Kat 19:22, Dec 26, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Crevaner/Old Right/Judson

He/they used to formerly make a point of letting many hours elapse between their respective votes, but it appears as if he/they're not being as subtle any more.

Last time, he/they stopped doing it after a few public remarks had been made about their oddly coinciding user pages and voting patterns, so I'd encourage simply pointing it out in VfD discussions.

As far as I know, sockpuppetry can never be more than a supposition.

Fortunately VfD is based on consensus and not a vote count, and since the acting sysop can and does use judgement in determining consensus and may ignore suspected sockpuppets. Dpbsmith (talk) 02:31, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)

the matter may be resolved now. per Judson's reply on my Talk page. regards. Michael Ward 20:05, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Françaix

Ha! I've noted his absence -- I added him to the list of 20th c. composers in the first place, I believe -- and I have to admit that some of my motivation for getting a start up was your shock that he didn't have an article yet! I did see the site, yes -- actually, it's listed in the external links -- and got a few tidbits (with my terrible French and Babelfish). And I'm using the online version of Grove, which claims to be from the 29-volume second edition, and the best I have until I can get back into the university library (at which point I probably won't have time to do much writing, alas). Sorry to beat you to it (at least a little)!

Incidentally, has no one awarded you one of these yet? Wow. Consider me part of your fan club, as it were. :-) Was looking through your contribs page (yes, even reading some of the articles on obscure Renaissance composers, so that's at least *one* other set of eyes) and was impressed. So, a well-deserved barnstar, for your contributions to Wikipedia. Mindspillage (spill your mind?) 05:48, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Incidentally, yes, I've played some Françaix -- the wind quintet -- but not nearly enough. My chamber groups keep going off and graduating on me, the wretches. :-) There is still an article by Arthur Hoérée (and Richard Langham Smith) in the Opera section article (yes, they're separated), but I found it almost utterly useless; if that's what you have in the 1980 I see why you're so glad it was replaced... Mindspillage (spill your mind?) 05:15, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Again not nearly enough Poulenc -- I'm sure I've played one or two of his pieces, but I can't think of what. I started on violin myself (and still play, but there are so many good violinists around that it's hardly worth mentioning), but bassoon suited me better, it and I both being a bit odd. Yes, Stetson's wind program and theory department are good, for a southeastern liberal arts school, at least, though I ended up there largely by accident. I take it from your photo/caption that you're off in California, doing whatever it is one does with a doctorate in music. :-) So great minds think alike again, with duelling Madeleines. Actually, mine is the Madeleine, but yours is the remembrance of things past (she says, ducking the overripe tomatoes). And thank you! I've been trying to write better articles in response to the standard of your work (among others, but particularly yours). Mindspillage (spill your mind?) 05:53, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Haven't read him, just recognize the reference and hate to miss an opportunity for a bad joke. No classes yet, I've a week more left. And happy editing, yourself. Mindspillage (spill your mind?) 06:36, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Time

Thanks! And yes, I'm taking advantage of the break while it lasts (though tomorrow I go two hours each way to take the GRE, so I too can become a hopeless academic)... Mindspillage (spill your mind?) 04:25, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Oh, I thought the SAT was fun, myself. It's the getting up early and heading across the state (the short way, fortunately) I'm not looking forward to! I don't *think* there's still a music Subject Test, which is really too bad. And yes, a quizbowler -- were you one, then? Mindspillage (spill your mind?) 04:56, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Well, I feel like I'm missing out, then! (Hey, E below middle C is the lowest note on my kazoo; at least, *I've* never gotten it to go any lower...)Mindspillage (spill your mind?) 05:12, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Middle Ages Wikiproject

Hi Antandrus, as far as I remember you work more on early modern music than medieval, but there is now a Middle Ages WikiProject, if you are interested. Adam Bishop 04:58, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] For an unrepentant highbrow...

...it's rather unseemly to have a typo right there on your user page. Sure, it's at the bottom, hiding beneath the pithiness of La Rochefoucauld, but I thought you might like to know anyhow. I'd take the liberty (or the privilege) of fixing it myself, but I wasn't sure if you'd mind, and you wouldn't get to see the new message banner light up, either. Mindspillage (spill your mind?) 01:55, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Ah, no shame; as a spelling bee nerd myself, I make more than my share... I'm better at spotting everyone else's typos than my own. :-) And indeed, Daniel Read. I know that period only from a day or two's lectures in music history, but I got sucked into link-surfing whilst category-checking... and figured as long as I was checking the link there, I should read up and write something on the intended Daniel.

Hm. I do know of joyce and re-joyce in Metamagical Themas -- had to go check to see if GEB ended with an incomplete sentence or not; I suppose the RICERCAR bit echoes the beginning chapter and could begin the book again, endless cycle-like, if that's what you're thinking of. I know Hofstadter's output fairly well and Joyce only by reputation and a few excerpts (sadly enough). Have you read GEB, then? As for the GRE... 800Q, 780V; tempted to take it again for that infuriating 20 points. Mindspillage (spill your mind?) 03:29, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Ah! I knew Hofstadter was doing that; I didn't know Joyce did. (Note to self: read Joyce.) And I missed out on the analytical portion, too. Mindspillage (spill your mind?) 03:52, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] quick note

Hi fvw--just wanted to say I'm impressed with your work here; keep it up. I hope the admin nom goes through. We can't possibly have too many dedicated vandal-fighters and nonsense-detectors. Happy editing, Antandrus 02:12, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, thank-you's are always much appreciated (even though my ego is quite sufficiently inflated at the moment by all those kind comments on my RfA). Keep up the good work! --fvw * 02:16, 2005 Jan 8 (UTC)

[edit] thanks Antandrus!

Hi, thanks for your comment on my editorial changes; I won't presume to debate a musicology Ph.D.! I guess I assumed that the de i was a spacing mistake in the vertuosa name. As for me, I am just an amateur/armchair baroque fan. I checked the Library of Congress catalog for the Cavalieri title, and saw that both e and et were used in the title (I had expected e or ed, but those wily Italians and their non-standardized spelling!!!) Anyway, I hope you don't mind me looking at the baroque articles; I figure we can work together to bring the light and sound of the baroque to starving souls needing such nourishment.

9 Jan: Thank you for you kind note. Glad to be of service. I learn a lot about composers I've never heard of, but there is a lot of work to do; for instance, I set up a stub for Zelenka, because he wasn't there yet!... anyway, keep in touch.

I remain, yr humble FeanorStar7

[edit] Supply Belcher, musica ficta

Hi Antandrus,

I enjoyed Supply Belcher.

You know, we seriously need musica ficta. Who else but you?

Cheers, Opus33 00:01, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Hi Antandrus, This is really nice and definitely helped reduce some of my confusions and ignorance on this topic.

I'm quite taken with the concept of causa pulchritudinis, which seems like a good reason to do all sorts of things, not just musica ficta! Cheers, Opus33 05:06, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Problems with Schein

Antandrus: would you be so kind as to look at the entries for Johann Schein and Johan Hermann Schein. One is a substantial article and the other is a stub, but they both refer to the same composer. As a Wiki-newbie, I don't feel comfortable trying to merge and delete stuff. But I thought you should know about the duplication. Thanks FeanorStar7 12 Jan 2005

update: edits complete. let me know what you think. some articles would have to be written about some of the people surrounding him. I will see what I can do, but prob. not tonite. thanx again. FS7

[edit] Composers

You must be some kind of musicologist. By the way, the composers you aren't even close to as well-known as say, Tomaso Albinoni. And many composers composed in more than one style throughout their lives. About Viraldini, I looked up that name and found several sources that imply he did exist. If he did exist, this would mean that he wasn't a well-known composer. But please tell me some reasons why you believe the composer never existed. Could the information and music of the composer have been artificially made. And could you please give me a source for putting down the suspicion that Henry Purcell may have been born on September 10. I'm longing to know these. Marcus2 17:10, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Here's one source for Viraldini: [2]. But it's certainly possible that people make stuff up over the Internet, and it all gets relatively widespread, which I suspect is the case with information found over the web on the singer Engelbert Humperdinck. Marcus2 18:30, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Brazil

No, he's another I know only by name: the music I know well enough to comment on is overwhelmingly biased toward wind music composers. And good luck; it seems a bit clogged at the moment... though I did get Rebecca Clarke through, and your attention there would be welcome. Mindspillage (spill your mind?) 18:57, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Re:Franz Schubert

My God, any help with copy-editing...... thank you thank you... :) --bleh fu talk fu 15:37, Jan 23, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] 212.183.90.212, Notes inégales

Hi Antandrus,

Hmm, this editor does seem a bit loose-cannon-ish. I gave a try to Beethoven and Mozart and I see that you've got Schubert more or less under control (keeping in mind, of course, the long-term issues with that article that you mention).

In other news, do you think you could take on Notes inégales? I am encouraged in asking this by the happy result of my having earlier begged you for musica ficta.

Cheers, Opus33 16:47, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Nice work, Antandrus! I added a link to rhythmic mode (new to me--maybe you can cover that one too?), and a sentence linking to discussion of the similar practice among Sacred Harp singers (this one Southern only; Yankees either don't notice the notes inegales or don't like them, I'm not sure which). Cheers, Opus33 16:55, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Slonimsky on Slonimsky

Thanks for the pointer; I never would have stumbled across that myself. Great stuff! (Fortunately no one else was in that section of the library to hear me chuckling... now to see who else I can share that with.) Mindspillage (spill your mind?) 17:11, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Hah! Wonder just how painstaking the research for that would be, and how the cataloguing would go... Relatedly, just made the day of the music librarian here by pointing his entry out (who has, incidentally, read his autobiography, and hints that it is well worth adding to my ever-growing reading queue). Mindspillage (spill your mind?) 17:50, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] French baroque composers

Hello, I am Gérard and i read your to-do list. I am specialized in french baroque music - particularly for harpsichord and organ. I have written quite a lot of bios of french baroque composers for the french Wiki and my purpose is to translate them to english. Ot will be necessary to check them, because english is not my mother language, as you probably will notice. Could you help me ? I have planned my contributions in French baroque harpsichordists according to a corresponding page in the french Wiki. Thanks. Gérard 09:59, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Hi, Antandrus ; thank you for your kind answer. I didn't mention it, but I wrote in english, one year ago, about Louis Couperin, the Couperin family, Georg Muffat, Matthias Weckmann, Jean Titelouze, etc. I also adapted to english some drawings I made about harpsichord for french Wiki. Could you check them, specially for correct names ? I think that my contribution can be useful : you are aware that french composers of the baroque are a bit neglected here, and I have gathered much information upon them. I wish we can do a good job by joining our efforts. I'll give you my opinion upon notes inégales à bientôt ! Gérard 08:00, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC) PS my contributions in French are under 2 pseudos : Ratigan and Gérard.

I've read notes inégales they look like a good job. Could you check my recent editions ? Thank you. Gérard 19:08, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Shame on you, Antandrus. Nicolas Siret was not in your watchlist! :-) Gérard 03:36, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Frescobaldi

Sorry, Antandrus, but I've got no information about the topic of pre-Frescobaldi tempo. Maybe you could question Luzzasco Luzzaschi himself ? ;o) Gérard 15:12, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Thanks

Thanks for the welcome, Antandrus. I'm enjoying the beginnings of my involvement in Wikipedia. It's a whole nother world in there (as one might say)! I note a general etymological similarity in our Wikinames. I'll browse through your material, and perhaps have more to say soon.--Noetica 22:03, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Pindar!

O my soul, aspire not to eternal life But rather exhaust the limits of the possible.

I am delighted to see this on your page! It serves as the epigraph to Valéry's Cimetière Marin, as you almost certainly know, and I have a special interest in that poem.--Noetica 22:18, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Thanks for your work and comments on List of early music ensembles

It's nice when people are civil and constructive, rather than the alternative. Niteowlneils 23:50, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Kalevi Aho

I just thought I should contact you to say I have created a very brief article on Kalevi Aho (Finnish composer), to which your /watch page links. --Oldak Quill 09:10, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Yes, n-dash...

Hi Antandrus. I've been bringing what order I can to "Classical music era"; but I have also been exploring your vast array of contributions, of which I stand in awe. And thanks for your insistence on the n-dash, here and there. Don't you wish more people cared about the little things? So important in any serious reference work. --Noetica 02:21, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Rosauro

Nice save. :-) Yes, still on my to-do, and perhaps due to the kick in the pants I'll make it my next expansion. Busy of late, indeed. Although if I had thought about it, I could have made writing for Wikipedia into a credited independent study project and dropped a different class, but that's another of those brilliant ideas that come far too late. Thanks for the note! (Hm. University of Miami? Didn't know that. Interesting; I might be going there...) Mindspillage (spill yours?) 14:37, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Thank you!

Just a quick "thank you" for voting me for admin. Now all I've got to do is find out how to use these worrying new powers... Grutness|^hello? 05:45, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Laboring in the shadows

Yes, that's it really. Just dropping by to touch base after you edited Francis Kynaston. Charles Matthews 10:58, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] A request

Hi Antandrus. Since we last spoke I've been working away at a few things here and there, many of them in the music area, but elsewhere too. I don't mean to trouble you (well, not unduly, anyway!), but I'd be grateful if you would have a look at how things are shaping up at Talk:Classical_music_era and, most recently, Talk:Sonata. Any advice would be welcome. (I'm having second thoughts about editing here at all, to be honest.) --Noetica 23:28, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)