Talk:Antoni Gaudí

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Antoni Guadi never felt Spanish, he never spoke Spanish and he was one of the most important independentist in the catalan history. It is not fair to define Antoni Gaudi as a Spanish, considering that now Catalonia is a recognized nation, (See Catalan New Status of autonomy) legally, the Catalan nationality exists. Define him as a Spanish It's like define the Dalai Lama as a chinese.

Sagrada Família

In Catalan is 'Sagrada Família' -- Perique, Barcelona. 2002/06/27

Having checked the Catalan version of www.sagradafamilia.org , I find that the Catalan name is Temple Expiatori de la Sagrada Família. - montréalais
¿Y por qué lleva tilde en Catalán? La saqué de la palabra, pero voy a ponerla otra vez. - ElAmericano 01:30, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
Catalan and Portuguese count vowels where Spanish counts syllables. Hence Catalan família and Portuguese António for Spanish familia and Antonio. --Error 01:10, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

(( Kero20082002@yahoo.com / Kero20082002@hotmail.com ))

Contents

[edit] Antonio and Antoni

Antoni (in Catalan) was his first name, now, how to rename the page? -- Perique, Barcelona. 2002/06/27

Is Antoni his Catalan first name, or what? The article's name Antonio, but that name isn't mentioned in the article. jheijmans, Wednesday, June 26, 2002

Checking some other sources, it appears that he's already very well known as Antonio (at least in some other online encyclopedias) -- the count of occurrences seems to be about equal for both names. So, I will create a redirect with Antoni in the title, and mention both uses of the name in the header. jheijmans, Thursday, June 27, 2002

Antonio Gaudí is an imposition of the dictatorships in Spain, in which prohibited the natural, original and official name Antoni Gaudí i Cornet.

This dictatorships has caused that is used at the present time by ignorance of some authors.

Other authors use it like vindication of the facist dictatorship, the terror and the deprivation of liberties of the free citizens.

Thank you! -- User:62.82.143.107

I don't know if that is true. What name did he use for his publishing? Anyway:
  • he is often found now in Spanish and in English as Antonio. It has to be mentioned.
--Error 00:17, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
Ack! my intention with http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Antoni_Gaud%C3%AD&diff=prev&oldid=19092179 was only to restore the proper glyphs to some links. I inadvertantly changed some Antoni to Antonio. I'm onboard with his given name, Antoni. When was the dictitorial order given to change such names? By whom? Why? with that info we can write a paragraph about the issue. -->>sparkit|TALK<< 00:30, July 19, 2005 (UTC)
Checking various language versions incl. Spanish and Catalan, all go with Antoni without referring the -io. Maybe a footnote is in order but the article should use Antoni. ~ trialsanderrors 08:15, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
I boldly disagree and reenter a mention of Antonio. --Error 23:09, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sculpted or built?

Are his works actually sculpted rather than built?

[edit] 3 times higher?

Are you sure about that 3 times higher thing? Can't seem to find it anywhere, though could be so.... in Gaudi's coppersmith imagination

Three times is incorrect. The central tower is supposed to be twice the height of the facade towers. The central tower is still proposed and four of the facade towers have been completed, one of which was finished by the time of his death. They are in fact, as he intended. ref. (Bonet i Armengol, J 2000, The essential Gaudi : the geometric modulation of the Church of the Sagrada Familia, 1a edn, Editorial Portic, Barcelona.)

[edit] Masterworks on subpages

Opinions: Should a person's masterworks be wikipedia subpages? I think they should be standalone articles for simplicity in cross-referencing, esp. if important enough, e.g. Mona_lisa rather than Leonardo/Mona Lisa....

What is the general consensus then ?
The point against the solution would be that it is naturally connected to the given person.
--Kpjas

I really don't mind the subpages, I just am thinking of a typical need to reference without having extra characters to type. Sort of the "World Book" approach, ya wanna know about Sagrada Familia? Ya pick up the S volume... I don't agree that subpages are "naturally connected" (v.s.) any more than a separate article with a link. And how do you handle collaborations? After all Gaudi himself said "Work is the fruit of collaboration"...
Among the works, El Capricho at Santillana del Mar and the bishop's palace at Astorga are missing. Somebody, get the dates and include them. -- Error 03:44 Apr 21, 2003 (UTC)
Subpages are now deprecated, anyway. - Montréalais
No, they should by no means be subpages. That is not Wikipedia policy for any articles. To move Wikipedia into a massive hierarchy (actually, it would turn into some sort of heirarchical web) would be chaos. - ElAmericano 01:29, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Corpse

The part about his corpse being run over is wrong, he wasn't dead. He went to a hospital that today is no longer a hospital, I forget the name, and he died a few days later. The part about him not being recognized is right though.

[edit] ABB

Sorry, but I think that Gaudí was born in Reus not in Riudoms.

[edit] Other works by Gaudi?

I've been visiting the official page for La Sagrada Familia where I've found these other constructions which mentioned as Gaudi's work :

  • El Capricho
  • Güell Real State
    • I have no idea what this would refer to, and would hesitate to add it to the article. -- Jmabel | Talk 04:10, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Güell Palacel
    • A typo for "Güell Palace". The article lists it as "Palau Güell", its Catalan name. -- Jmabel | Talk 04:10, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Episcopal Palace of Astorga
    • Archepiscopal, actually. 1887-1893. Gaudí was nominally the architect, but as built it doesn't have a lot to do with his plans. -- Jmabel | Talk 04:10, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Teresianas School
    • more commonly known as the Convent and School of Santa Theresa 1889-1894. Very restrained for Gaudí; Mower describes it as being "of puritanical simplicity" -- Jmabel | Talk 04:10, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Casa Botines
    • 1891-1894, in León -- Jmabel | Talk 04:10, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Güell Cellars
    • I'm not sure what his might refer to. Might be the crypt of the Colònia Güell Church -- Jmabel | Talk 04:10, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Bellesguard
    • 1900-1902, in the Bonanova suburb up near Tibidabo. -- Jmabel | Talk 04:10, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Cathedral of Mallorca
    • I'm not aware of him having worked on that, and I'd want to see a more specific citation as to his role. -- Jmabel | Talk 04:10, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
      • Visited the place a couple of year's ago, and the shop was full of books on Gaudi. He was brought in to help with the restoration in 1901, his ideas were partially implemented, before he withdrew and the work stopped. Beautiful canopy above the alter - well worth a visit if you're in Palma. See the amendments in La Seu's entry. AMe 21:34, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
  • La Pedrera
    • Nickname of Casa Milà. -- Jmabel | Talk 04:10, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Colònia Güell Church
    • That would be the crypt, mentioned in our article -- Jmabel | Talk 04:10, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Here's the URL to the page http://www.sagradafamilia.org/eng/temple/gaudi_obra.htm . I just wanted to check this with other who know more about him and then insert this names in the article. -- Shervinafshar 16:12, 16 October 2005 (UTC)‍

Comments interspersed above. Could you give a link to the precise page you are referring to?
My dates come from Gaudí, by David Mower, London:Oresko Books, 1977. -- Jmabel | Talk 04:10, 17 October 2005 (UTC)


  • Güell Real State. Refers to a Güell's Estate in Pedralbes (7, av. Pedralbes - Barcelona). Gaudí built the main door, (with an expressive forge-work dragon), the wall and some little pavilions. See [1]
  • Güell Cellars. See [2]
  • Cathedral of Mallorca. Gaudí worked in the restoration of the cathedral (1903-1914) (a young Josep Maria Jujol collaborated). See [3]
  • Colònia Güell Church. Yes, only the crypt was built, and it's a masterpiece, Unesco's World Heritage. See [4]

--Joan sense nick 01:10, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Edit link problems

Does anyone know how to fix the edit link problem. Very bad. - ElAmericano 01:37, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

You'll have to clarify. I don't see any problem. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:30, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
The first couple of sections don't have "edit" links by the headers. Then, the late history has three such links beside it. - ElAmericano 08:30, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
The problem isn't with the article, it's with the software. This tends to happen when there are a lot of images, or big images. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:36, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Family

[5]: Anon changed "oldest of five" to "youngest of five", no citation, I have no idea whether this is a correction of vandalism, would someone please cite or would someone knowledgable with an account please weigh in? -- Jmabel | Talk 20:12, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

The correction was, as it turns out, correct. I miswrote before, when I based my additions on the Spanish version of a source. - ElAmericano 22:14, 6 November 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Interesting Information?

I removed the following section because it sounds like nonsense:

Although a big cat lover, he was less of a fan of smaller creatures, such as the wasp. This was shown when Gaudi used a large stick and lots of preservation to chase the wasps in Spain. They are yet to return. Gaudi was also a very generous man and did a lot of work for charity, most notably sacrificing his leg (right) to save the life of a small child, unfortunately the leg was too big.

Anyone know if part of this is based on fact and just poor translation, or is this utter nonsense? In any case it shouldn't be in the midst of his professional biography ~ trialsanderrors 08:27, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

If this is not nonsense, then Mallorca is not an island. - Jmabel | Talk 20:24, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Why only Catalan?

I can't understand why the article says he was a "Catalan architect" and not a "Spanish architect". Are we politizicing the Wikipedia?. I'm Andalusian and I don't see that the articles of Lorca, Velazquez, Picasso, Machado, Cernuda, Murillo, Alberti or Aleixandre say "Andalusian artist". And I don't see why the article cannot say that Catalonia is not a country or that it belongs to Spain. It gives the impression that Catalonia is an independent nation when it is not. The name of Spain is only used to enlarge the figure of the architect as if to enlarge the figure of Velazquez we use the word "Europe".

I have a strong respect for Catalan nationalism but I don't think we have to support it in Wikipedia by using sentences such as "Catalan artist" without making explicit that all Catalans are Spanish as of today. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ruedasox (talk • contribs) 21 August 2006.

People keep changing it. It should probably say (I'm nowiki'ing here to show where the links go) [[Catalan people|Catalan]] [[Spain|Spanish]]. By the way, Wikipedia also tends to identify cultural figures as "English", "Scottish", etc., not "British"; similar matter.
But there is no possible comparison between England or Scotland with Catalonia. They don´t share the same history. England and Scotland are countries inside another country and have also been countries for many centuries. Catalonia has never been a country. England and Scotland are different countries when they play soccer or rugby (not in the Olympic Games) but Catalonia has never played against another country in a official game. By the way, I agree with the definition as Spanish Catalan. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ruedasox 22 August 2006 (talk • contribs) .
The issue is trickier for the Catalans than the Andaluzes, because "Spanish" in every sense is inclusive of Andalucía; [[Spain|Spanish]] is inclusive of the Catalans, but [[Spanish people||Spanish]] is not.
Gaudí was about as emphatic a Catalan nationalist as they come: he usually refused to speak Spanish. As far as I know, none of the individuala you mention (except maybe Lorca) had a comparable relation to their Andaluz identity, but I'd be ready to stand corrected. It probably would be appropriate to mention Lorca being Andaluz more prominently in his article than we do, because he is an emphatically Andaluz cultural figure.
That is true. Most of the individuals I mentioned are not Andalusian nationalists. Not even Lorca or Alberti were neither Spanish nor Andalusian nationalists. But many of them had a prominent Andaluz identity comparable to any Catalan nationalist. You don´t have to be a nationalist to have a regional identity. But the point I want to emphasize is that I don´t think we should say "a Catalan or an Andalusian painter" for example, no matter if the individual did not consider himself Spanish. I think that we should say the nationality the individual has or had and then, later in a different paragraph, state their political or nationalistic identity. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ruedasox 22 August 2006 (talk • contribs) .
By the way, not all Catalans are Spanish, even today: Narbonne, Perpignan, etc. - Jmabel | Talk 03:46, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

That is true. Thank you for the answer. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ruedasox 22 August 2006 (talk • contribs) .

abslolute nonsence —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.119.150.169 (talk) 15:49, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Gaudi was a Spanish national. The subtleties about the status of Catalonia cannot be assumed general knowledge by the readers of English Wikipedia; hence there must be a reference to Spain in the opening section; if only to support the non-Spanish readers (the target group of this English encyclopdia). Arnoutf (talk) 21:00, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Is the Oxford Style Guide nationlist?

The Oxford Style Guide describes him simply as "Catalan architect". I don't think there is a political agenda there. It is more precise to say he is Catalan, the same as it is more precise to describe someone as 'English' than 'British'. If such as respected, non-political publication like the Oxford Style Guide can do it, I don't see why we can't on the Wikipedia.

I'm reverting from the idiot who tried to write "Catalonia Community" (but couldn't even spell it). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.184.168.179 (talk) 14:25, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Gaudi's Nationality

Antoni Guadi never felt spanish, he never spoke spanish and he was one of the most important independentist in the catalan history. Is not fair to define Antoni Gaudi as a Spanish, considering that now Catalonia is a recognited nation, (See Catalan Status of autonomy) legaly exist the Catalan nationality. Is like define the Dalai Lama as a chinese.


It is true that he never felt Spanish. But when he lived his passport said he was Spanish and his nationality was Spanish. Catalonia is not a country. The Catalan Status of Autonomy says it is a nation but it says that in the preface so it doesn´t have full legality. As far as I know it does not exist a country that is recognised in the United Nations and that is called Catalonia. When a catalan travels abroad he-she shows a Spanish passport, not a Catalan passport. When a catalan athlete goes to the Olympics he participates under the Spanish flag. etcetera. I´m not an anti-Catalan nationalism. I´m a liberal and I think Catalans may have the right to be considered a country. But as of today Catalonia is a region, comunidad autonoma, in Spain. And this is an encyclopedia and it should be objective instead of a place where political ideas are showed through.

That is why I said that first he should be considered as a Spanish Catalan artist and later, in a different paragraph-section, explain his political and nationalistic feelings. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ruedasox (talk • contribs) 25 August 2006.

I continue to think this should be [[Catalan people|Catalan]] [[Spain|Spanish]], but I don't think an edit war is a useful way to solve this, and it seems that every time I put that, someone reverts me withing 24 hours. Ruedasox, I take it you agree with me, but tell me if I'm wrong, since you are not explicit about that. Would others please weigh in, here, on the talk page, rather than by edit warring? Thanks. - Jmabel | Talk 19:35, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
Jmabel, I totally agree with you. An edit war will only bring bad consequences to the wikipedia. If we have a discussion in this section where everybody explain their points of view will help the good development of the encyclopedia rather than if everybody comes and changes the words they don't like and go away. - User:ruedasox

I agree with Jmabel and the unsigned comment above. Catalan nationalism played an important part in Gaudí's life. But Catalonia was a part of Spain, Gaudí was a citizen of Spain, he carried a Spanish passport, he paid taxes to the Spanish authorities, etcetera. He was a Spaniard, and therefore should be referred to as such, alongside Catalonia. I second Jmabel's proposal for referring to Gaudí as a [[Catalan people|Catalan]] [[Spain|Spanish]] architect. Aecis Appleknocker Flophouse 13:20, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I wouldn't use Spaniard (which is generally a designation of ethnicity, and a bit archaic). - Jmabel | Talk 18:00, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Weel, Catalonia is not a state. That's true, but is a Nation. And as I said in my previous comment, if you check the Dalai Lama article here in wikipedia, you can't read he is Chinese, because is not, even if Tibet is (legally) a part of China. Right? Using the same rule, Why don't you go there and change it, writting The Dalai Lama was a Chinese spirtual leader from a chinese region? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.71.107.247 (talk • contribs) 20 September 2006.

Because the Dalai Lama's situation as an exile makes the situation a bit different. I'm not sure what his actual citizenship is; if you happen to know, it should probably be in the article. He certainly does not have a PRC passport. Perhaps he travels on papers from the (unrecognized) Tibetan government in exile? - Jmabel | Talk 04:05, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
This sounds like a political debate. It is true that Gaudi was Catalan. It is true that Gaudi was Spanish (I don't know his "feelings" like others on this forum apparently do). It is true that Gaudi was European. To refer to him as any of these would not be incorrect. My impression is that referring to him as Spanish offends some nationalists, however it doesn't make it incorrect. Furthermore, I agree that he had great pride in his culture (he was actually thrown in jail once for refusing to speak Castillian), however I am unaware of him not recognizing that his culture was one of many within Spain. In fact he had ties to two of the most powerful families in Spain, the Lopez, and the Guell (the latter being Catalan, of course). I believe he was also a monarchist, implying that he had respect for the Spanish state. The political debate should be taken elsewhere, and I believe that reference to him as either Catalan, Spanish, or both should no longer be debated. 130.221.105.69 17:48, 27 September 2006 (UTC) Alberto
On a similar note... I believe the following statement is too strong and/or not correct "Gaudí, among others, promoted the Catalan nationalist movement by incorporating elements of Catalan culture in his designs." There's no question he incorporated Catalan culture into his designs (the red and gold stripes atop the spire of Bellesguard, the many references to St. George, among many others), however I don't think he was a nationalist per se. The word nationalist to me implies something stronger than pride in your culture, it implies a political message. I have never found any evidence that he was anything other than proud of his heritage. I think the statement should be changed to something like "Gaudi incorporated elements of Catalan culture in his designs (examples)" then a statement could be made about how these designs might be an inspiration to nationalists. 130.221.105.69 18:04, 27 September 2006 (UTC) Alberto

Gaudi was proud of his culture. He was arrested for speaking Catalan. He did not promote sovereignty of Catalunya from Spain. This is false and should be removed from the article. To the chagrine of many on this forum, he was not only a devout catholic, he was a loyal Spanish subject. There is no evidence to the contrary. We need to stop confusing cultural pride with nationalism (or separatism). --76.167.43.150 15:02, 15 July 2007 (UTC) Alberto

[edit] Number of siblings

I am aware of Gaudi having had only one sibling, Francisco, d. 1876, yet the article implies he had 4 siblings. Anybody know for sure? 69.167.58.163 19:39, 29 October 2006 (UTC) Alberto

The cited source, [6], says (this is verbatim): "Antoni, the couple's fifth child, was to live the longest. His siblings included sisters Rosa (May 5, 1844-1879), who married and had a daughter, Rosa Egea Gaudí, and Maria (June27, 1845-January 10 1850); and brothers Francesc (March 26, 1848-April 20, 1850) and Francesc (May 27, 1851-1876), who earned a Medical degree, but never practiced." - Jmabel | Talk 04:57, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Shop front

The shop front has gone. It also seemed out of place to mention it in his influences, compared with the large scale of the others. Some small shop, compared with WTC replacements??--137.205.76.74 14:00, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Later years

In the first paragraph it reads that his attitude changed after his death, as if he continued to work posthumously. Guess, there is a mixup in the sequence. - Alsandro · T · w:ka: Th · T 14:46, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Assessment

I've assssed this as B-class. It is really a good article though, and I would encourage the editors of this article to consider bringing it up to Wikipedia:Good Article or Wikipedia:Featured Article standards. Carcharoth 08:34, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The neutrality of the infobox is disputed

Some users are making changes and reverting edits in order to erase all traces as possible of the real and only nationality of Antoni Gaudi (which was a spaniard) in order to describe him with a regionality (catalonia is a region of Spain).

The users making these changes are of course, of catalan nationalist ideas.

I'm pretty sure readers from Europe will know that if someone is described as catalan, this means he is also spaniard (as the catalan nationality does not exist), but I really doubt people from Australia, Hong Kong or Guam would know this fact.

User Xtv, for example, keeps saying that, Gaudí had explicit problems because of deffending his catalanity. He is pretty well allowed to explain this fact in the article, but that doesn't allow him to ommit is only official citizenship, which was spanish.

Unfortunately for user Xtv, Catalonia is not so well known outside Europe as he wish. So wikipedia has become the "perfect" path to satisfy his political nationalist ego. Pushing his edits to the limits of truth, (Gaudi was from the spanish region of Catalonia, but his nationality was spanish), he will, without remorses, describe him as catalan, "together" with his only, real and official national identity, which is being a spaniard, making us believe Gaudi had a double nationality, which is false.

Fortunately, in late times, wikipedia has become for students and people wishing to learn, a marvellous way to improve their knowledge. If we allow these users to alter articles at their political wish, wikipedia's credibility will suffer from it.

For this reason, waiting an admin to state about this, I'm asking good faith users to revert (explaining the reasons for it in the talk page) these kind of edits from this users, which, while not lying, are, on purpose, leading future readers to mistakes about the real nationality of the gentleman described on this article and about the political status of the spanish region of Catalonia.

Thanks and Cheers! --Maurice27 09:01, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Maurice27, good to see you back after admins released you from the indefinite block you earnt due to your personal attacks. It's good also to see that you haven't insulted anybody already.
Unfortunately, you haven't still learnt to respect other political opinions. You are still obsessed with your Anti-Catalanism and this time the poor Antoni Gaudí has to suffer your French-Spanish patriotism!
I'm afraid Antoni Gaudí wouldn't agree you. He was renowned, fined and insulted by Spanish media because of his Catalan nationalism. So it's not strange that Xtv has defined him as he himself did: Catalonian.
Note also that nobody is removing his legal status, Spaniard, but adding further info, in this case, Gaudí's own political point of view.
What you are doing is only erasing info.
--Casaforra (parlem-ne) 10:29, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't know if my "obsession" about keeping the truth in wikipedia is worst than your agreement to include in a infobox, behind the title nationality, the word "catalan".

  • Gaudi had no catalan nationality (nobody else does. There is and never was a catalan passport)
  • Gaudi had not a double nationality

and what it is worst

  • keeping in defending to describe his citizenship as "catalan" even if you don't have any single proof of the existance of a catalan nationality, and wanting to include wrong and false facts, and admiting it publicly will show everybody reading the "veracity" and the null confidence that your edits deserve.

P.S. If the indefinite block was removed, it explains that your accusation of personal attacks are lacking of veracity... just like the rest of your edits...

--Maurice27 13:35, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

As another proof of my point, here is, again, another revert [7] from Xtv to show how some users are adding false facts on purpose to mistake wikipedia readers. --Maurice27 23:42, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

I just left it as it was before your changes. Now I see (I hadn't noticed) this field changes quite often. I can accept to leave it temporaly as Spanish if you feel better until we find a consensuous, and if we don't find it, we ask once more for mediation. --Xtv - (my talk) - (que dius que què?) 00:01, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Sean Connery, Daniel Craig, Tom Jones (singer), Desmond Llewelyn, Catherine Zeta-Jones, George Best, Anthony Head, Charlie Chaplin, Aleister Crowley, Cary Elwes, Depeche Mode, Elvis Costello, Graham Chapman, H. G. Wells, John Cleese, J. K. Rowling, Chhime Rigzing, Jampa Tsering, James Adam, Robert Adam and in general also all elements of Category:Scottish architects (among some other hundreds) are considered Scottish, English or Tibetan (for example), without having Scottish, English or Tibetan passport. If you change all of them and you are not reverted, I will accept Gaudi as (only) Spanish (let's remark I already accepted to put both Catalan and Spanish and you didn't want).--Xtv - (my talk) - (que dius que què?) 23:39, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

NONE, I repeat, NONE... Let's say it again... NONE of these people do have in their infoboxes a line called "nationality" where it says scottish, english or tibetan... NONE.

Why? because that would be a FALSE fact... And people tend not to LIE to other users.

Where does it say that Sean Connery is of Scottish Nationality? NOWHERE

Gaudì, nationality: spaniard

Come on Xtv... make it a harder for me... That was just to easy. --Maurice27 23:49, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Ok, so then let's do as in all this articles and let's delete the field "nationality" in the the infobox. Of course we will also delete all the references about Spain that you introduced in the article, since in the articles above also there are no references of UK or China. This is my deal: you introduce here Spain just after you introduced the British and Chinese nationality to all those people above. If you have no problem, we write that Gaudí was Spanish. Otherwise we do as in all those articles and we say just he is a Catalan architect (in the text) and we say in the infobox just that he was born in Catalonia. Agree?--Xtv - (my talk) - (que dius que què?) 00:01, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Category:English writers and Category:Scottish writers are in... Category:Writers by nationality! Category:Scottish scientists and Category:English scientists... guess it!!! I think you have a lot of work changing nationalities...--Xtv - (my talk) - (que dius que què?) 00:06, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

And, btw, without too much efford I found William Ramsay, Alexander Murray (geologist), James Clerk Maxwell, Hugh Falconer all Scottish in their infobox. Another solution I propose (I think you won't accept it neither, it's difficult to negociate with you: you only accept your option) is the one in Hugh Falconer: Citizenship: British. Nationality: Scottish. We can do the same here: Gaudí's Citizenship: Spanish. Nationality: Catalan. Agree?--Xtv - (my talk) - (que dius que què?) 00:17, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


No I don't don't! Those last articles are wrong! And i'm not a policeman to change them all. But I will keep you from lying in this one.

  • Catalan nationality does not exist
  • Catalan citizenship does not exist

And that's all! Adding whatsoever close to "catalan" behind the word "nationality" is false and a lie. You are openly admitting you want to add false facts to articles.

Nationality is a relationship between a person and their state. And Catalonia is not one.

Oh... And quit talking about Scotland when explaining your point... The UK is a union of kingdoms. Catalonia was never one

Try it again, it wasn't hard either... --Maurice27 01:32, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Maurice27 said about me: the null confidence that your edits deserve. P.S. If the indefinite block was removed, it explains that your accusation of personal attacks are lacking of veracity... just like the rest of your edits...
Well, that's a personal attack, my friend.
My suggestion about the problem on the infobox would be to do as Xtv said (Citizenship: Spanish. Nationality: Catalan), or simply state the official Spanish and the his willing Catalonian.
Gaudí, as I already said, didn't feel as a Spaniard, he repeated many times he was a Catalan, not a Spaniard, for that he was fined and mistreated by Spanish media. (Not so different to today's attitude of the Spanish patriots and media).
I guess your problem is, as you stated, Nationality is a relationship between a person and their state. And Catalonia is not one.
Let me disagree: A State does NOT mean a Nation. Actually, there are few of them (being Portugal one).
A Nation is a group of people with common traits (language, religion, ethnicity, ...). Catalan nationalism is only based on language, and you should agree that Catalonia has a language, Catalan. So, you shouldn't be amazed that there is a number of people who regard themselves as members of a nation (Catalonia), and not of the (according to them) imposed state, Spain.
Gaudí said he was Catalan, not Spanish. He was fined for speaking in Catalan when it was not allowed. Don't you think we should respect his own political point of view?
So, let me ask, Maurice27, are you able to reach a consensus or do you want your only option to prevail?
--Casaforra (parlem-ne) 07:19, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
Maurice27, why not correcting the other articles and just the Catalan-related ones? are you affraid your position will be there also questioned? I have never admited to add any lie: I have the believe (as he had) his nationality was Catalan with Spanish citizenship. I have made a new version in the sense of the new estatute: he was offitialy this even if he felt that. Do you find it better? And no, I don't stop comparing with Scottland, I think it's a perfect analogy. There is no King of Catalonia. And? a kingdom makes a nationality? What about Tibet? And today's France? USA is not a nationality? Was Ireland a nation just the day they got the independence? the day before they didn't exist? Come on, I accept your part of right, try to accept also our part of right, please.--Xtv - (my talk) - (que dius que què?) 22:40, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


Xtv, you are starting to denote some paranoid beliefs on how the world runs. To keep in wanting to impose your criteria even after having been proved to be wrong and lacking of any substancial, juridical, legal, metafisical or even political backing to your point is completely discrediting your credibility as a wikipedia editor.

I will post you, for the last time, a description by the Encyclopædia Britannica of the word Nationality:

Nationality: In law, membership in a nation or sovereign state. It is to be distinguished from citizenship (q.v.), a somewhat narrower term that is sometimes used to denote the status of those nationals who have full political privileges.

Encyclopædia Britannica Article ([8])

Knowing perfectly as you do, that Catalonia is not a nation nor a sovereign state, I ask you, again, to erase your edit.

--Maurice27 23:25, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

From Encyclopaedia Britannica:

<<Nation: People whose common identity creates a psychological bond and a political community.

Their political identity usually comprises such characteristics as a common language, culture, ethnicity, and history. More than one nation may comprise a state, but the terms nation, state, and country are often used interchangeably. A nation-state is a state populated primarily by the people of one nationality.>>

Then: people from Catalonia has a common identity? yes, they are Catalan. Does it create a bond and a polytical community? yes, the AC of Catalonia, with a Parliment. This identity comprises a comon language (yes! catalan), culture (yes! from Sardana to Castellers, Catalan literature, etc...), ethnicity (yes! Catalan people) and history (yes! History of Catalonia). "More than one nation may comprise a state". Oh! so, you were deffending State = Nation, but it seems Britannica, the Encyclopaedia you cited, doesen't. So then Nation (following Britannica) not always equals state. Continue: "But the terms nation, stat and country are often used interchangeably". Exactly: often, not always.

Moreover, you know that the 89% of the Catalan Parliment (120 over 135 diputees) approved an estatute where it said that Catalonia is a nation, so we are talking that 89% of the people representint the Catalan community thinks that Catalonia is a nation.

Now, do I deffend with that that Catalonia is a nation? NO. I don't want to discuss it here because here is not the place and neither you nor I are able to discuss it. You will say that the Spanish government didn't accept this Estatut. So, there are people (89% of the Catalan Parliment) who thinks Catalonia is a nation, there are other (Spanish government) who thinks not.

Therefore, I feel not so free as you do to think I am over and better all this milions of people who think both one or the other thing. I can have my personal feeling, but I know I am not the one who can answer this question (probably the answer or perhaps the question is too ambiguous). Therefore I think you can not say Catalonia is not a nation, and I can not say neither that it is. Therefore, I think the best solution is the one I gave: he had Spanish citizenship but he felt just Catalan. There is no lie. It is included your point of view, he is by law Spanish. It is included mine: he felt just Catalan. What's wrong on it?

Now, to finnish, I would like to ask you 2 things:

  • Please, read carefully what I write, it seems you ignore all my literature.
  • Moderate your tone. I am giving you my point of view and I am trying to conciliate it in some way with yours. In every of your contributions, however, you have to include some personal attack which I have never done and I think I don't deserve it. (In your last contribution, for example: "your point is completely discrediting your credibility as a wikipedia editor"... I wouldn't like to compare our block register...).

So, I beg you to try to conciliate positions, try to understand other POV, as I try including the Spanish citizenship. Try to think that perhaps you don't have the absolute reason as I don't, and try to accept a middle point as I try to do. I hope we can finally find one concensuous position and I am sure that, if we do, I can not only say neither my POV nor yours. I'm looking forward to hearing your answer. Cheers.--Xtv - (my talk) - (que dius que què?) 03:51, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Maurice27 has tagged this article as a Hoax without any explanation on the Talk page. Due to the arguments he is giving here I guess his "hoax" is the sentence "With Spanish citizenship, he felt just Catalan".
I disagree him. That's not a Hoax.
That's the proper explanation, as Xtv and me said above, of Gaudí own's political feeling and point of view: Gaudí DID NOT feel Spanish, but Catalonian.
What's wrong with explaining this? Gaudí was a proud Catalonian:
On September 11, 1924, the police closed Barcelona's churches to prevent a traditional Catalán celebration from taking place. Gaudí protested and was put in jail. He refused to speak Castilian Spanish. [9]
1924 - Gaudí is under arrest September 11 - Catalonian national holyday - to attend in the church of the Just i Pastor Saints to the mass in memory of the Catalonian patriots and to refuse to speak in Castilian (Spanish) language to the police. [10]
In my opinion, by explaining this we are respecting his memory.
By the way, Maurice27, you are not God, you are not the owner of Supreme Truth. We are open to discuss and reach a consensus, that's why we have offered many options for the infobox. What about you? You only want your own POV to prevail...
... And your many derogatory sentences and insults which are not being replied back by us with more insults, not even by the only way you look to understand: Block. So please read twice your comments before posting or learn to debate, you choose.
--Casaforra (parlem-ne) 14:24, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
All in all, I remove the Hoax tag.
In the source you added you simply said it refused to speak in spanish, not that he refused to be a spaniard. Something that anybody can do... To renounce to its nationality. Why didn't he do it? Your source is useless and not related. The hoax template is back. --Maurice27 18:16, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
In those sources Gaudí's reasons not to feel Spanish are seen.
Telling that Gaudí DID NOT feel Spanish is not a Hoax, it's his opinion.
Since you tagged this article as a "Hoax" without any explanation, could you please tell us what you don't agree and your proposals? Tell us what is a Hoax according to you instead of tagging repeatedly.
Gaudí felt ONLY Catalonian, is that a Hoax?
--Casaforra (parlem-ne) 18:53, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
By the way, if Gaudí was imprisoned just because he talked in Catalan to a Spanish cop, can you imagine what would had happen to him if he openly said he wasn't Spanish?

Until you argue like an adult... Next! --Maurice27 20:20, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

One more insult.
When you have no reason left to argue, you only insult.
--Casaforra (parlem-ne) 07:21, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I came here from AN/I earlier, and asked about the fonts, but I'm looking asat the big problem now, and frankly, it's a stupid problem. Just brign the infobox onto conformity with the thousands of infoboxes that state date and place of birth, date and place of death, and cover his nationality (spainish) and his cultural identity (Castillian) in the article, with citations. If he really was a Castillian separatist, then you should all be able to support that. ThuranX 22:12, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

There you go. I edited the infobox temppalte to make nationality a conditional field, and removed Nationality from here. Now you can cover the issue in the articlespace, and use citations and such to hammer out an acceptable wording. ThuranX 22:20, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
Excellent work. Hopefully the incivility and silly edit warring will now stop. The ANI tread seems to have stopped the incivility without the need for further preventive blocking. I'm sure that you can work out a fully sourced NPOV section about what appears to be a notable part of the man's legacy and life. MartinDK 10:39, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
The removal of the line in the infobox seems fine to me. I only wanted the article not to state his nationality to be catalonian, which was a false statement. The article may now explain the point in the general sections, which is what I defended since the beginning. I will also remove the NPOV tag. --Maurice27 15:20, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
I already tried to remove the nationality field, but it was not a conditionally field and I found possibly too disrupting to modify an infobox that is so much used. I find it now a perfect solution. Thank you ThuranX! --Xtv - (my talk) - (que dius que què?) 12:58, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm glad to see that two weeks later, my solution has worked well. Now... fonts? ThuranX 03:20, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hoax

Please read WP:HOAX and then stop tagging the article as a hoax when it is blatantly obvious that the guy did exist. Falsely tagging articles as hoaxes because you disagree with the POV of the wording is futile disruption and will result in administrative action against those who choose to do so. Also, please remember that Wikipedia is not a battleground and all editors are expected to remain civil at all times. Repeated incivility will result in an indef block. I suggest you take this to WP:ANI if you are unable to settle this dispute yourselves. If not then I will do so myself very soon. MartinDK 07:28, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Done: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:ANI#Antoni_Gaudí.
--Casaforra (parlem-ne) 09:06, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Font/Typesetting

Why is nothing about the ont bearing his name in here? ThuranX 16:05, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Police

After Maurice27's deletion, I googled to find what kind of police did actually arrest Gaudí, but found nothing. Was it local police, Guardia Civil, some other corps? --Error 00:56, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

He was brought to the Delegación de policía at the Plaça de Regomir, so it was the Spanish Policía Nacional.
By the way, Maurice27 removed the adjective Spanish from my wording of "arrested because of talking in Catalan to the Spanish police" claiming it is POV.
No, it isn't:
Gaudí was not arrested by a Catalan police or a local Barcelona police:
It was a SPANISH police punishing a citizen who dared not to talk in Spanish, but in Catalonia's authoctonous language: CATALAN.
--Casaforra (parlem-ne) 14:40, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
I am not so sure. Was there a Policía Nacional at that time? I think it was formed in the 1970s from Cuerpo Nacional de Policía + Policía Armada. Guardia de Asalto was founded at the Second Republic as an urban police, but our article does not say who was the urban police in Barcelona in earlier times. --Error 21:06, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
Yes, Error, I thank you the "dubious" tag.
The Plaça de Regomir police station was used until recently by the Policía Nacional, so I guessed it was them who arrested Gaudí. Or, if not them, the police force which would become them later. But the wp:es and wp:en entries have no reference about this isue.
I'll keep researching. --Casaforra (parlem-ne) 08:48, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
Until no reliable source about the specifical Spanish police force that arrested Gaudí is provided I come back to my first wording "Spanish police". So I erase the Policía Nacional naming.
--Casaforra (parlem-ne) 09:47, 6 July 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Baroque Modernism

  • Gaudi's work is representative of an eccentric modernism that some define as "Baroque Modern Architecture".Wrightwriter (talk) 05:01, 16 May 2008 (UTC)