Talk:Anton Webern

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[edit] Who Shot Anton Webern?

There's a play, Who Shot Anton Webern?, which states that it was Private First Class Raymond Norwood Bell of Mount Olive, North Carolina who shot Webern; this is corroborated elsewhere[1]. However, both of those accounts say that the shooting was accidental, not related to black-market activities. Anybody have insight? --moof 20:52, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

As I remember reading, there was a bust in progress at the house at which he was staying; it was surrounded by soldiers who were instructed not to let anyone escape, and they hadn't yet made their move in. Webern stepped onto a veranda for his after-dinner cigar, and one of the soldiers shot him, thinking it was someone trying to escape. I'd have to look around to see where I read this, but as far as I know it was an "accidental" shooting by a soldier who was literally following orders. Antandrus (talk) 20:58, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

The nyu link above doesn't work for me, so I can't check it. I'd be interested in seeing it because I'm uncomfortable with a play as a source for "fact." But that said, the play script I saw does not say the shooter was drunk, only that he later WAS a drunk. I'm going to remove the word from the article. John (Jwy) 23:20, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree; thanks. I'd never read that he was drunk either. Antandrus (talk) 23:55, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I'd always heard that the man who shot him was so filled with remorse over the killing that he later became an alcoholic. This first article Google pulled up seem to confirm that:

http://www.scena.org/columns/lebrecht/050907-NL-webern.html

-- Rizzleboffin 00:04, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

For the first 15 years, the only source of information on Webern's death was the Webern family, who related that while visiting at the home of his son-in-law Benno Mattel, Webern was shot by an American soldier while Mattel was being arrested by the Americans for black-market activity. The family did not know the name of the soldier or precise details of the shooting, and no statement was released on the incident by the U.S. Army. In 1959 Hans Moldenhauer launched an attempt to obtain papers from Army files relating to the incident. He succeeded in contacting several persons involved, and he published his findings in the book The Death of Anton Webern (Philosophical Library, 1961). To summarize Moldenhauer's conclusions, Mattel had been approaching American soldiers wanting to buy such items as sugar and coffee to sell on the black market. The Army decided to entrap Mattel and sent PFC Raymond Bell (a cook) and 1st Sergeant Andrew Murray to Mattel's house on September 15 for this purpose. While Murray and Bell were negotiating with Mattel in the kitchen on a price for the items, Webern had gone out onto the front porch to smoke a cigar. When Mattel came to an agreement with the soldiers and took out his money to make the payment, the soldiers drew their pistols and told Mattel he was under arrest. Murray then sent Bell back to the Army post to get reinforcements to accompany Mattel to jail. Bell, with pistol in hand, dashed out the front door and collided with Webern on the front porch. Bell thought he was being attacked by an accomplice of Mattel and shot Webern. Bell was already dead when Moldenhauer wrote his book, but Bell's widow related to Moldenhauer that her husband had great remorse over the shooting and died of alcoholism. ThomasM 22:26, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Could you put a References section with a citation of the book in the article? I think the article is consistent with that explanation now, yes? John (Jwy) 22:45, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! John (Jwy) 04:31, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Twelve-tone technique

"he became one of the best-known exponents of the twelve-tone technique"

This does not make any sense. Selfinformation 17:34, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Why? Henry ^Flower 17:57, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

I understand that my comment is not entirely clear... I meant to suggest a rephrasing of that fact. It seems to me strange to call a person an exponent of a technique... Do you understand? Selfinformation 23:10, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

No, you've still lost me. What's the difficulty? Henry ^Flower 19:14, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

It seems to me semantically incorrect to state a person to be an exponent of an abstractum such as a technique... Somebody has already changed it to "he became one of the best-known proponents of the twelve-tone technique", which makes more sense, in terms of word choice... Best, Selfinformation 19:30, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Synaesthesia

My Late and Post-Tonal Analysis lecturer, Dr. Alan Street, the editor of the journal Musical Analysis, reliably informs me that Webern often used sound to convey the power of a smell (synaesthesia), should this be included in the article? I don't have any books that quote this at the moment, but I could look it up in the Grove dictionary next week, when I've got this essay on Op. 6 / iii finished... KLF Fitton 19:01, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I had a quick google. There were a few hits, but they all just seemed to be talking about Messiaen's synesthesia and then going on to Webern in a different context. But if you find a source, by all means. Henry ^Flower 19:15, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Grove online doesn't seem to have anything on synesthesia in the Webern article or any mention of Webern in the synesthesia article. Doesn't mean there's nothing to the subject, but it doesn't appear to be in Grove... -- Rizzleboffin 19:57, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

A follow-up: I just checked the indexes of a few books on Webern, including Kathryn Bailey's The life of Webern, Malcolm Hayes' Anton von Webern, Allen Forte's The atonal music of Anton Webern, and Hans Moldenhauer's Anton von Webern, a chronicle of his life and work, and didn't find a mention of synesthesia. I'd be interested to hear about Webern & synesthesia, but don't find anything on it. Perhaps Prof. Street has written something on this subject? -- Rizzleboffin 22:07, 16 May 2006 (UTC)