Talk:Antoine de Saint Exupéry

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article is within the scope of the following WikiProjects:


This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Antoine de Saint Exupéry article.
Article policies

---

Contents

[edit] old talk

Removed "where he is stranded on a tiny planet", because that misleading information. He is stranded in the desert of Sahara, where he meets the Little Prince who's been on Earth a whole year.
Sigg3.net

[edit] old talk

"It seems he was also an aircraft designer." I don't think you're right. Of course he was interrested by aircraft design. Where does the quote comme from ? Ericd

I got this quote from: http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/cathedral-bazaar/ar01s07.html. Ppareit

It's a fair chance he was interested in aircraft design, I don't think he was a designer himself though. Above all he was a pilot. This was long before advanced technology was implemented into the airplanes, and Saint-Exupéry had numerous crashes, also in the Sahara desert. Sigg3.net

[edit] old talk

I added some english quotes, but I do not have the french text as someone supplied for the other quotes. -- Ds13 06:40, 2004 Apr 23 (UTC)

[edit] Third most [widely] read?

This statement seems fishy to me: and is the third most read book only to the Holy Bible and the muslim Ku'ran. Who says so? How can anybody possibly know which is the third most [widely] read book? --????

I agree and I'm removing the passage until someone comes up with a credible source. Lisiate 21:54, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

What was probably meant is that Quid? almanach, 1970, listed "Vol de Nuit" as the third best-selling novel in France, in "recent" years. 2,242,600 copies. He also has two others in the top 10. That's does seem worth putting in the article, somehow... Alpha Ralpha Boulevard 13:28, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hyphen

I read, somewhere, that his name was credited as "Saint Exupéry" with no hyphen. Can someone tell me why that was? Mike H 17:45, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)

Besides the (at least) unintelligent remark below (this one may spare energy, but not aimed at the right target), the fact is that any legal document in France do not show any hyphen in his name. This is not an exception — other people share this peculiarity. Till now, I haven't got convincing explanations about any rules or usage about hyphenation in names in the French-speaking areas. — Ivan Korenyuk ψ Іван Коренюк 09:57, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
- The above statement, « the fact is that any legal document in France do not show any hyphen in his name », is absolutely not true. Please look at the image of the banknote issued by the Banque de France that was added to this article today. « Saint-Exupéry » is spelled with a hyphen. This « legal document » was in the hands of every French citizen. Charvex (talk) 12:28, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- Please also look at the sign from Québec in the article. « Saint-Exupéry » is spelled with a hyphen here too. This sign was made by governmental authorities. Charvex (talk) 12:34, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
- Please also see this same article at 'fr.wikipédia. « Saint-Exupéry » is spelled with a hyphen in the title of the article, too. - This English article should be corrected. Charvex (talk) 12:43, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

-- It's because you have to exert a lot of energy if you write a hypen so they don't put a hy pen on it. --

Would be helpful to add pronunciation and/or a recording to know how to say his name properly.

My recollection from the wonderful 1994 bio (Schiff) is that he started to use the hyphen when he lived in NY, because the US custom was that you could not have a double 'family name' unless it was hyphenated.Cross Reference (talk) 01:47, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Suicide?

It would be nice to have some sources for these "suicide theories". Are they based on any factual evidence, or just someones opinion? It could just as easily be someone interested in gaining publicity for themselves by taking a contrarian position. It seems.. I'm not even sure this is noteworthy enough to add to the article, anyone who dies in unknown conditions could have a "suicide theory", it almost goes without saying. --Stbalbach 17:48, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Well yes suicide

Yes well the main theory of the little prince is that the most important is invisible to the eyes is the real king pin to the suicide theory. The little prince realizes he lights up the stars for his flower as he does for the pilot. However this doesn't bring peace to his lonely existence. He is still conflicted by his inability to care for the rose and his now conspicuous responsibility to her. He has already made in his mind his noble impact in loving the rose. However contention arises her life is in question by the little prince this is evident in his discourse with the pilot of how sheep left unattended will eat even flowers with thorns. The snake speaks of his ability to allow the little prince to escape his torment saint-exupéry directly alludes to death of which the little prince already has due motive. I thought this opinion to be rudementary but apparently this is not so. What other possible escape could the snake offer other than death. Perhaps he represents the narcotics dealer in society. That is a much more likely opinion don't you think? 2-1-06 ton ami Henri Ruehle (—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.110.98.99 (talk • contribs) .)

[edit] The Right Stuff

I've included a section entitled "Other literary references" to appropriately link to Tom Wolfe's The Right Stuff. The quote is one of the most poignant mentions of the definition of The Right Stuff . Mark5677 09:51, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The plane crash

I quote: Today it is regarded as very improbable that Saint-Exupéry was shot down by a German pilot (in spite of the bragging of a German airman who later claimed so). The German aerial combat records of July 31, 1944 do not list any shooting down in the Mediterranean that day.

Where are the sources proving these claims? Who was the pilot bragging about it? Is there a link to the aerial combat records?

I don't know when the comment above was left. Perhaps the March, 2008 revelations now included in the article with citations to three news reports (Reuters, Le Monde, and the AFP report) have resolved this issue. -- LisaSmall T/C 20:53, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] uppercase in title

In #Works some titles are written using uppercases while in fr.wp in lowercases. Unfortunately I don't speak French at all but found a book in amazon.fr for fr:Terre des hommes (not Hommes). Should we fix them, or? --marsian 07:22, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi, in French (as in Italian and Spanish) we don't capitalize words in titles as in English. Matteo 07:34, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
Thanks Matteo. It's quite informative to me. Well... I found the descriptions: Wikipedia:Naming conventions (capitalization)#Capitalization of expressions borrowed from other languages, which is pointing Wikipedia:France-related topics notice board#Titles of works of art. And now I understand why you left Le Petit Prince as it is: because it's a proper name, right? Then I wonder if L'aviateur is to be L'Aviateur (as in fr.wp) or not ... or you just forgot to change? --marsian 09:54, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
Hi, not really. I left Le Petit Prince because it was like that in the French version. Also for L'aviateur it does more sense with a lowercase a. I looked at the list of books of Saint-Exupéry on the amazon.fr and Le Petit Prince and it was the only one with capital letters on all the editions. Maybe it was like that on the original work? Matteo 10:44, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
Roger that. Thanks anyway. --marsian 23:49, 26 October 2006 (UTC)


[edit] New York Residence

From looking through Town of Huntington documents on an unrelated matter this morning, I found that Saint-Exupery actually lived in Northport New York, not NYC (that's also where he wrote "The Little Prince". I've changed the sentence dealing with his New York location to reflect this. BigKahuna13 01:26, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Interesting. I suppose this would be commonly available info in any recent biography. I wonder where the NYC information came from. -- Stbalbach 15:28, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

I just did a search in Stacy Schiff's biography for "Huntington" and only found one minor reference.[1] I think we need a source to show he lived in Huntington and not NYC. -- Stbalbach 15:33, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Sorry my confusion, Northport not Huntington, the Schiff biography supports that. -- Stbalbach 15:39, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Saint-Exupery did not write The Little Prince while residing in Northport, New York. Saint-Exupery was staying in New York City but required a more peaceful and cooler location out on Long Island. During the fall of 1942 he rented a historic mansion known as The Bevin House which is located in Asharoken, New York, which is where he wrote The Little Prince. I created an article for The Bevin House and at the bottom of that page you'll find multiple citations to the fact that The Little Prince was written there, and to the location of the house as Asharoken, not Northport (there's even a satellite image showing the house's location). I will say that Northport is the nearest town but Saint-Exupery never resided in Northport. I hope this helps.
--Fife Club 18:50, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
P.S. If one of you happens to also be anonymous IP 24.46.137.107, please don't re-add Saint-Exupery back in the Northport article[2].
Thanks for clearing that up. It seemed odd that someone would stumble on it in "town documents" of unknown authority when any number of quality biographies are available. -- Stbalbach 14:05, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
Why would you find that odd? Document wasn't of unknown authority - it was on the the letterhead of the "Northport Historical Society and Museum". I've emailed the society about the discrepancy. Curious to see what their response will be. BigKahuna13 00:47, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
It's just that it is a primary source historical document which has not been fully analyzed by a professional historian and put in historical context. Certainly there is other evidence besides this to locate where he lived and the biographers have figured it out. -- Stbalbach 13:17, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
I can totally understand the confusion and I had to contact elected officials who got me in contact with a local historian before I made any corrections. Although I don't live anywhere near Long Island anymore I did grow up right there in that area. Get ready to be confused:
Asharoken, New York is an isthmus which completely cut it off from the main land except through Northport, New York[3]. Asharoken has no businesses at all so anybody living out there must travel to or through Northport for anything they need to live, hence the strong connection. Asharoken doesn't have their own schools or library either, using Northport's - and hence why the Northport Public Library has a large Saint-Exupery exhibit. Making this connection even stronger, Asharoken doesn't have it's own Post Office so it share's the Northport zip code. Even when I typed "Asharoken, NY" into Google Maps I got a location pointer saying "Northport". (See this map and particularly this closeup section to see the borders of Asharoken and it's location compared to Northport.)
So it makes complete sense why Asharoken could be mistakenly considered Northport even for locals. But even though The Bevin House looks out at Northport Harbor and can probably see the town of Northport, it is technically located within the Incorporated Village of Asharoken. I was just trying to be accurate. I am very curious to know what the "Northport Historical Society and Museum" says about this. Please let us know. If they disagree I'd like to contact them myself with these facts. Thanks. --Fife Club 20:08, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Airport

Of note - the relatively new airport servicing the Lyon, Rhone region is named after St. Exupery. The architecture of the airport is also striking as it resembles an eagle in flight through glass and metal armatures.

68.62.16.211 16:42, 6 January 2007 (UTC)ant1

[edit] First name

The article doesn't explain why he was christened Jean-Baptiste Marie Roger de Saint-Exupéry, yet he's known as Antoine. JackofOz 00:51, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

He wasn't, and the article is wrong. Antoine Marie Roger de Saint-Exupery was his baptismal name, but unfortunately I can't find an authoritative source on it to make the correction and duly footnote it. Therefore I'm leaving the error and I hope someone will be able to make the correction. Cantabwarrior 02:43, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Infobox

Added an {{Infobox Writer}} infobox using for the most part information already contained in the article. Please modify it as may be necessary. Cantabwarrior 03:06, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mirage/Hallucination

In the description of Antoine's experience in the desert there is the line: "Both of the men began seeing mirages."

As a mirage is a natural phenomena, dependenant on the environment, not the health of the observer, shouldn't this read "Both of the men began to hallucinate."? —Preceding unsigned comment added by DangerLaef (talk • contribs) 01:28, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I made a small change to correct this. Mirages are an everyday occurance in a hot desert (a video camera is perfectly capable of capturing them). (The confusion may have crept in on account of a similar confusion by the Thompson twins in a popular Tintin album.) Alpha Ralpha Boulevard (talk) 07:52, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Horst Rippert does not belong in the first paragraph

Despite the news headlines of late, Horst Rippert, an unknown Luftwaffe pilot, does NOT belong in the opening paragraph of this article. Wikipedia puts salient informaton first and least salient information last. Please, at the very least after this flurry of headlines (not even confirmable and sourced only by this man's soon-to-be-published memoir) ends, remove this from the opening paragraph. Thanks! I'm not even sure Antoine's death belongs in the opening paragraph. Softlavender (talk) 03:44, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

OK, I took it out. The entire affair has its own section and subsection; no need for an opening paragragh to include death info! Softlavender (talk) 02:07, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] NO hyphens, please!

Please keep the hyphens out of Saint Exupéry's name, and remove them when they crop up. Thanks! Softlavender (talk) 02:14, 22 March 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Credibility of Horst Rippert's story?

I'm starting to question the veracity of this man's story:


(1) We have no one's word for it but Rippert's story, off of which he is possibly already making a lot of money, and off of which his book on the alleged event -- which he is (intentionally or not) promoting masterfully by these press articles -- is possibly going to make tons of money.

(2) This is a real headliner story that has flown around the world because it sounds so cool and intriguing, not because anybody verified it. EDIT: NYT says that Rippert was discovered and contacted by the diver von Gartzen, so that adds more credibility to Rippert if that's how it played out. Although, Rippert waited 2 years to make the info public. (Why? So he could write a book first?)

(3) German aerial combat records of July 31, 1944 list no downings of enemy aircraft in the Mediterranean, according to (unspourced) information added to this article on July 18, 2005 by 131.220.97.115.

(4) The fragments found of Saint Exupery's plane showed no signs of combat.

(5) Recently Rippert stepped forward, a mere four days after his famous brother Ivan Rebroff died, and claimed his immense estate. Even though Rebroff apparently had little or nothing to do with Rippert.

(6) Rippert is a journalist, which means he knows how to manipulate the press and make money off of his writing. EDIT: OK, he's a television (sports) journalist, maybe not the same thing.


Sure, the story could certainly be true, but I'm just saying, don't automatically believe everything you read. Softlavender (talk) 22:44, 22 March 2008 (UTC)


Dr. Jean-Pierre de Villers wrote a book in 2000 about a pilot who also claimed to have shot down Saint Exupery. His book is called "The Last Flight of the Little Prince". Here is the amazon.com link to the title and its discription: http://www.amazon.com/Last-Flight-Little-Prince/dp/1895873835/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1207781012&sr=1-5 172.168.13.222 (talk) 22:50, 9 April 2008 (UTC)


Thanks for posting that. As far as I can determine, the pilot in that book is fictional, as is the entire book. I added the book to the "Literary references" section of the article. Softlavender (talk) 09:50, 12 April 2008 (UTC)


PS: I edited my comments above to reflect the info in this NYT article: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/11/world/europe/11exupery.html?pagewanted=print Softlavender (talk) 03:24, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

I find Rippert's story quite credible: a) why wait 60+ years to make a false claim; b) why make a false claim in '06 and then not begin to exploit it immediately? c) he claims he made diary entries--what's the date of those entries? MWShort (talk) 12:22, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Not sure what you mean by '06, since it's '08 now and he hasn't come forward before. The diary entry would have been in August 1944, but I do not know why no one to my knowledge seems to have tried to verify its existence, if in fact it still exists. Softlavender (talk) 23:07, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
The Times article states that von Gartzen called Rippert in July '06, at which time Rippert told von Gartzen that he had shot down de Saint Exupery. MWShort (talk) 11:51, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
Ah, I see. Well, it could be because he wanted to write his book first and get a publisher for it before announcing it to the world. What better way to have your book fly off the shelves? To me it's actually more alarming that he's just now made it public. That's the skeptical answer, anyway. Softlavender (talk) 22:19, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Suicide improvable and irrelevant

I am a great fan of Saint Exupéry, as no doubt many readers of his article and this talk page are. The idea of his suiciding is sad, but after wearily reading about his death for years, I begin to wonder whether it's provable, in any sense that Wiki likes to establish facts, and if it is the case, what difference it makes?

1) His aircraft not having major damage might suggest that he did suicide, but that is not proof in the sense that a farewell note is taken to be proof. The damage might be undetected (a block in a fuel line), or the damaged piece missing.

There's no evidence that there was no major damage. Very little of the aircraft was recovered. 58.8.5.244 (talk) 02:25, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

2) Saint Exupéry might have believed the plane was damaged, and tried to land it. The plane was old and probably not very airworthy, he was "old" (for a fighter pilot), was not a particularly careful pilot (yes, I can cite that given time), and had been raised in an era where the stall speed (landing speed) of airplanes made it conceivable to bail out even without a parachute - even though his plane had a much higher stall speed, this may not have entered in his calculations (this is not my point, but one I read). I.e., there may have been little or nothing wrong with the plane, and yet Saint Exupéry might decide to abandon it.

3) Unless the plane suffered catastrophic damage, say at high altitude, it is no proof that he did not commit suicide. I.e., he might have used a damaged plane as an excuse, and just given up.

So plane damage is not "proof", one way or the other.

4) What difference would it make if he had committed suicide? Would anything he wrote be less true, less interesting? More interesting? Would people stop admiring him? Stop reading his books?

As I understand, many people stopped from suiciding are later grateful. If he had tried to suicide, and lived, would he have wanted this incident to be endlessly examined? There are so many important aspects to him. This global discussion isn't about him, not what the man what about, not about the legacy he left.

Alpha Ralpha Boulevard (talk) 15:53, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Hi, I'm personally not sure why you posted this here -- the article does not even mention the possibility of suicide. Softlavender (talk) 01:13, 14 April 2008 (UTC).
Hi, Softlavender. The article, perhaps rightly, avoids a central issue as some see it. It's the reason such intense attention has been paid in international press over the discovery of his plane. The question of whether he committed suicide has been debated for years, unfortunately not only in tabloid presses. My feeling is that suicide is unpleasant, but not a reason to invalidate someone's lifetime accomplishments, and is therefore somewhat beside the point.
Alpha Ralpha Boulevard (talk) 09:23, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "fragments ... showed no traces of combat" line removed

I removed the "It remains unclear why the fragments that were recovered of Saint Exupéry's P-38 showed no traces of combat" line [4] as aero-relic.org explains:

“ Right side - No specific element remains. The fin has been completely torn away, carrying away with it the right side if the boom. As the aicraft has been identified as a military Lightning, thus being a war machine, it was not appropriate to direct our investigations on suspect traces such as impacts, possibly coming from shots, either ground ones (AA/Flak) or aerial ones (7.92 and 13 mm bullets or 20 mm shells, as is the case for a P-38 lying in the Bay of La Ciotat).

In fact, after careful analysis of the surfaces of these remains, no particular mark or hole caused by possible shots could be found. In the light of the low percentage of recovered parts, this does not however preclude a crash due to shots, either ground or aerial ones.

 ”

58.8.5.244 (talk) 02:25, 3 May 2008 (UTC)