Talk:Anti-Italianism

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article is within the scope of the Discrimination WikiProject, a collaborative effort to improve Wikipedia's coverage of discrimination topics. If you would like to participate, you can visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.

Contents


[edit] Source needed (Italian American Internment during World War II)

Italians in internment camps? Is there a source for this? Italian-Americans were among the highest representatives that fought for the USA in WW2.Yukirat 05:26, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

A source is not needed, Italian internment, though not as well known as Japanese internment, is nevertheless a widely known and accepted fact of american history under FDR. --NEMT 21:14, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
I think that only those who did not have United States citizenship were interned (unlike the Japanese, where American citizens were also interned). The current wording is a little misleading... AnonMoos 13:16, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

AnonMoos, are you saying that French, Swedesh, Irish, Canadian folks etc - and other notAmerican citizens - were also interned like the Japanese, Italians and ItalianAmericans? Lol, you are funny, mate! Try reading something serious about Anti-Italianism. Yukirat, contact the OSIA, they ll help you to find the sources. --Bigben 16:35, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

What the heck do you even think you're talking about?? Please do try actually reading what I write next time -- it may end up saving effort and creating less unpleasantness all around.
As I rather clearly stated above, my understanding is that only those Italians (and Germans) in the U.S. who were NOT UNITED STATES CITIZENS were detained, while Japanese were detained whether they were U.S. citizens or not (except in Hawaii). Therefore the use of the words "Italian-Americans" in the section is rather misleading. AnonMoos 15:49, 18 September 2006 (UTC)


[edit] La Cosa Nostra

Is this link really appropriate? --NEMT 21:14, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

It has nothing to do. Unfortunately, the racism still exists. --Bigben 16:35, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Alleged anti-Italianism in the United States Democratic Party

This section strains hard, but fails, to draw a general point (that there is widespread, or substantial, or at least notable anti-Italian sentiment in the Democratic Party, and apparently only in the Democratic Party among political parties) by relying on scattered anecdotes that simply do not add up to a pattern of anti-Italianism by Democrats. These few anecdotes--some of them even of questionable anti-Italian intent--are not justification for trying to stick an "anti-Italian" label on the Democratic Party. (Nor, I believe, could one justifiably put a section like this in the article on the Republican Party) Gathering "evidence," like that presented here, is only part of the process; you also have to assess its importance and significance. To use these spindly reeds to suggest something general in the attitude of the Democratic Party toward Italian-Americans is a leap too far. I propose the section be deleted. RickDC 21:28, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. All of those quotes, even if taken wildly out of context, would not demonstrate any serious anti-Italianism. MorrisGregorian 02:15, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
The topic heading should not be anti-Italianism in the Democratic party. However, instead of deletion, the section should be reworked to leave these examples (and add others) to show that public displays of anti-Italianism are seen even in the highest levels of government. This racial stereotyping and innuendo of Italian Americans would never be tolerated, or ignored by the media, if it was directed against most other ethnic groups. The point of the section is misdirected at Democrats but there is value in retaining the core information.--Ana Nim 14:17, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
I completely agree, paesan. I find it amazing how people can get away with directing disparaging innuendos and stereotypes towards Italians, when any stereotyping against any other ethnic group would never be tolerated. However, perhaps the title should be changed. --Callmarcus 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Even if the section were retitled and the focus reworked, so that the Democratic Party was no longer the focal point, the scattered anecdotes seem thin proof or even evidence of anything notable beyond the fact that people occasionally say things that can be interpreted as (and sometimes are) "anti-[fill in the blank]" This point could apply to almost any group in society, and to make it here, so weakly, does a disservice to the preceding sections of the article, in which good points are made well. I still recommend that the section be deleted entirely; I don't see a ready way to improve it to the point where it would add value to the article. In any event, certainly the focus ought not to be on one political party. RickDC 23:50, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

PS. As a side note, a Mayor in a suburban New York town (the name of the exact town escapes me) recently responded to questions from an Italian American school board official by stating "Because I don't like guineas." I find it amazing how little attention was given to the incident.

I've retitled the section, to remove the focus on solely the Democratic Party. I've reworded the text. I've also deleted the paragraph on New Jersey, which has no substance to it--just that two Italian-Americans in NJ didn't like Menendez's vote against Alito. I still strongly believe the section should be deleted entirely. It's a weak and insubstantial segment for an encyclopedia article. I've only tried to eliminate its anti-Democratic focus. RickDC 00:48, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

If this is true about Democrats are ethnically biased towards Italians, then the housespeaker Nancy Pelosi is in the wrong political party to begin with...why not switch to the Republicans to sit next to...who else, Rudolph Giuliani? I don't know what political party Mario Cuomo is with (Dems? Reps?), but what about 1920's NY mayor La Guardia...was he a Dem or a Rep? Time to search and find out, but I'm so sorry for Ms. Pelosi represents the Democrat Party and she's an Italian-American! 63.3.14.1 16:01, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Do we really need such an article?

There isn't a single verifiable statement in this page. I would like to see any evidence for Italian culture being significantly different <<from that of the mainstream identity of white people and Western European cultures>>. And anyway, are racial stereotypes like this worth an article on a reputable encyclopedia? --Fertuno 00:55, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

  • There might be claims in this that are invalid, but anti-Italianism certainly existed in US history and the history of a few other nations. See Google books on Anti-Italianism. (I took off Chomsky's because they seem to be irrelevant) I think it'd be better to ask "do we need this article as it is now" or "this article is done badly and needs better sourcing." You can add the appropriate tags to indicate it needs improvement. Some statements I made like a year ago, when I didn't understand Wikipedia as well, are there unaltered and probably need sourced.--T. Anthony 13:49, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
  • As an Italian American who has been discriminated against and has had family members discriminated against, I find your statement extremely offensive. Sources can be found for almost everything on this page. You seem to have an agenda. - 16 December 2006 UTC
Offensiveness is a purely subjective matter. As an Italian I rather find offensive someone who says Italian culture <<significantly differs from that of the mainstream identity of white people and Western European cultures>>, which means absolutely nothing and it's probably written by someone who haven't the faintest idea about European and Italian cultures and how each other are related. This is an article about old 19th Century North American stereotypes about Italians, and it fall exactly in those stereotypes. Nothing to be astonished at. So, as long as this is an encyclopedia and nobody produced verifiable sources for that, I'm going to delete it. --Fertuno 12:42, 16 December 2006 (UTC)


How is the truth offensive? Censoring and erasing this page will not bring an end to anti-Italianism, if that's what you think. If you erase this, next it will be the anti-Semitism page, the Racism page, and so on. Just because you have some bizarre shame of the past does not mean we should erase it. Callmarcus 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Have you ever read Wikipedia policies about verifiability?. I'm afraid you don't, because the very first period states that "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth". This is an encyclopedia, draft with scientific method, so you have to provide the truths you add to the article with reliable sources, tipically reputable third-party published sources. That's all. As long as you don't provide sources for your statements, those sentences should go. --Fertuno 10:53, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
A source has been added. Hundreds more similar sources can be added as well. -- The Truthish 17:40 19 December 2006

[edit] 2005 Cronulla riots (Australia)

I disagree with the POV and content of this article in principle. Nonetheless, it exists so I think there should be some degree of fact. I've never been to Australia but I understand that originally 'wog' was a derogatory term for Italians and Greeks. With the increase of immigrants from the middle-east since the 1980s, this term came to be applied to them as well. From what I gather, the riots at Cronulla were not aimed at Italians but represented the growing xenophobia towards Muslims. I modified the article to soften the inclusion of Italians, but perhaps it should be removed completely. Mariokempes 22:57, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I could not find any support for this statement. Removed. Mariokempes 16:54, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
Hello, I live in Australia and am of Italian descent. The term wog first was used against Greeks and Italians but now anyone from a number of different Southern European countries get the name. Cronulla was against Lebanese after attacks against whites were reported; some say the attacks were actually done by Turkish gang members rather then Lebanese but white Aussies just assumed it was the Lebanese. At the riot both Arabs and any other darker skinned people were targeted. Alexbonaro 04:46, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] violent?

I never heard or read anywhere that Italians are being considered by anyone to be exceptionally violent. Quite the contrary: I watched a documentary recently which featured several German Stalingrad veterans who said that while the Romanians were good allies and brave soldiers, the Italians "cried like women" upon capture by the Red Army. Not a joke, it's really true. 87.78.148.16 01:25, 11 April 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Flagged for clean up

I've tagged this for clean up due to:

  • The presence of uncited direct quotations
  • A heavy reliance on weasel words throughout
  • Possible original research
  • The rather unconvincing assertion that calling a politician "fascist" is an incident of anti-Italianism (consider: Fascist (epithet))

--88.149.173.98 16:54, 2 May 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Issues that still need addressed (May 2007):

  • U.S.-centrism: I'm assuming that the focus on the US (aside from two brief paragraphs) is reflective of systematic bias rather than reality.
  • Stereotypes of Italians and Italian Americans: This section probably needs completely rewritten or removed, as it relies largely on weasel words and unverified (and unverifiable) statements.
  • Violence Against Italians
    • Find citations for the following:
      • "the second most likely group to be lynched"
      • "the lynching of eleven Italians in the city of New Orleans"
      • ""were nearly deafening"" (Apparently a quote from somewhere)
      • "one newspaper reported..." (direct quote needs cited)
      • S&V were executed partially "due to their Italian ancestry"
      • S&V were convicted "despite the lack of evidence"
    • Weasel words:
      • "most historians agree" that S&Z's trial was unfair; How many are most? Who says this, when do they say it, and where do they say it?
  • Italian American internment during World War II
    • "One official stated..." (indirect quote needs cited)
    • "Bill Clinton made a public declaration" (would benefit from citation)
  • Anti-Italianism in politics
    • Weasel words:
      • "It was argued..."
      • "was seen by some of his supporters"
      • "Opponents of Alito's nomination countered..."
      • "which some interpreted as an ethnic slur"
      • "which was also interpreted by some as a derogatory"

--Ringtail Jack 14:17, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Clinton and the "Mafioso" comment"

The article had been edited to state that "President Bill Clinton once referred to Governor of New York Mario Cuomo as a "Mafioso". This is incorrect on several levels. First, he was not president at the time of the comment. Second, Clinton himself never used the word. In response to a comment by Gennifer Flowers that "I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't have some Mafioso major connections," then-Governor Clinton said, "Well, he acts like one." Here is one of many sources quoting the exchange: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E0CE3D71438F933A05752C0A964958260 I think the exchange still has a place in the article, but it should be done to correctly reflect Clinton's comment.--Ana Nim (talk) 13:32, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Quota

It should probably be noted that the 1921 (and, later, 1924--See Emergency Quota Act and Johnson-Reed Act) quota regarding the number of Italian immigrants allowed into the US applied not only to Italians, but to all immigrants from the Eastern Hemisphere. This quota was put in place largely as a result of post-WWI US isolationism-- as well as anti-Chinese sentiment (and, later, anti-Japanese sentiment) following the downturn of the GoldRush in California--in fact, the 1924 Act specifically barred all Asians from entering the country. How the article reads now implies that the quota was specifically targeted at Italian immigrants, a grossly misleading insinuation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.49.252.53 (talk) 15:39, 22 May 2008 (UTC)