Talk:Anti-Germans (communist current)

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I shortened the article a bit. It is much better to read now!

Contents

[edit] Crap

This article is just crap. Applying the term "Anti-German" to these people is radical and incorrect. Using it in this conetext certifies a lack of education and a diminished intelligence to the person who does so. I´m German and until now i have only heard this term on the part of right-wing extremists. It´s like calling an American who criticizes the Vietnam War "Anti-American". It doesn´t make any sense at all. Maybe you could apply the term to people that just "don´t like Germany", but even then it would be highly doubtful, as it is a radical expression per se. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.57.227.204 (talk) 20:35, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your constructive criticism. Actually these people call themselves Antideutsche. It's not a term anyone is applying to them.--Carabinieri (talk) 21:49, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

I apologize for the polemical undertone of my comment. The article itself is written well I think, i just have a problem with it´s content. Until now I´ve meat only one of these so called "Anti-Germans" personally and he didn´t refer to himself as such. However I´ve heard or read right-wing extremists using this term frequently in order to refer to anybody who is pro-israel or anti-nationalist. Refering as anti-germans to them seems radical to me. It´s like a German had to be nationalist to be German and we all now that today it´s quite the reverse sometimes. It´s a very incorrect term and even the fact that "Anti-Germans" themselves use it doesn´t change this. Again, I apologize for insulting the article while it just summarizes allready existing information about this topic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.57.227.204 (talk) 09:39, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Sinistra!

the anti-german group sinistra! wrote a text in english about the anti-german ideology. http://www.copyriot.com/sinistra/reading/texte/antigermans.html


[edit] Structure ?

From the article, it´s possible to figure out what "Anti-Germanism" is against, but not it´s theoretical schematics. As far as I can see it (having consulted the linked documents), "Anti-Germanism" is a rather scattered set of theoretical and historical fragments. Therefore I assume the lack of structure of the article corresponds well to that of it´s topic. It seems to be tough work to set this straight...

[edit] antigermans

the anti-germans are not just marxist...there are also some anarchist or non-marxist communist who are anti-german! also it is not only based on the solidarity with israel but also on the thought that german politics and society is the most capitalistic and imperialistic and that (western)germany never was "cleaned" of the old nazis which made lots of careers in the post-war-germany. also they fight against that part of the new german pop-culture who stay for a new "proudness"of being german,who are very popular at the moment in germany (fler/mia etc.) there are two kinds of antigermans the so called hard- and softcore antideutsche (antigermans).

[edit] Anti-German

There is only one sentence for the topic of "anti-German" proper! I understand that this is an English-language Wiki, but this is absolutely ridiculous. The first step in helping racism succeed is to convince observers (and the victims) that it doesn't exist. First there is the ethnic factor, some form of anti-German feeling is present wherever Germans are a minority, in most places around the world including the United States and South America. The Volga Germans of the former Soviet Union are now the most rapidly disappearing ethnic minority on the planet. Second, there is the national factor- you could go on for pages about the British press!

I desire to see this article fixed, but I doubt there would be many takers... judging by the articles on German Expulsion from the East, it has become fashionable on Wikipedia to adopt an anti-German bent. So much for NPOV.

[edit] Can we split this article?

May be we can write remove the redirect and write an article Anti-German sentiment, and write an article following the example of the article Anti-French sentiment and anti-Americanism. Anti-German sentiment was quite strong just after WWII and enduring in some countries, like Norway. This should be described somewhere. (I am somewhat pro-German by the way). Andries 21:40, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Well, I don't think there is anything stopping anyone from writing an anti-German sentiment article. This one refers to something entirely different. I'm not sure if it would need to be moved, although we could create Anti-German (ideology) or something if there was a lot of confusion.
However I would caution that an anti-German sentiment article would need to be historical and only makes sense if it identifies a geneaology of the phenomenon with references provided. Otherwise, the page, just like the old Anti-American sentiment page and the French page, will just become a mess of random ranting with a contemporary focus. Tfine80 22:07, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
But I do agree it is dumb to have that sentence at the top. We should either have an article or not mention it here. Tfine80 22:11, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
Anti-German sentiment was of significance in post war Europe for some time and to a lesser extent even now. For that reason an article should be made. I dunno how to make it a good article and how to keep POV disputes and edit warring out of the article, but that is another question. I would appreciate help. Andries 22:17, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
I agree that it is a phenomenon. Probably much more coherent than a subject like Anti-Australian sentiment. However, it is hard to know where to begin. I think that anti-Americanism is an important article because it discusses a clear concept that has been variously defined and we can try to place some limits on its scope. To understand anti-German sentiment we would have to examine the Congress of Vienna, Bismarck, German colonial policy, and German landholdings in Eastern Europe. And it would differ from every historical perspective and actor. What I don't like is an article that gives a brief history and then discusses petty (in the long term) and contemporary issues like trade disputes or emotional topics like the Iraq War. Or one that collapses into a collection of stereotypes. Tfine80 22:28, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
It is perhaps important to write the article first before wondering about POV issues. It hasn't even been written yet. You're still only talking about doing it. I don't understand what the contention is about. Why not see what the content is first before you voice your disapproval of the article? Goodbye to All That had a few passages describing anti-German sentiment on the English homefront during WWI, for example, which isn't mentioned at all in any Wikipedia article.--Denkmal 03:37, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Much better!

This topic is so scattered, I wasn't even aware of the "organised persecution" article. "Well done" to the person who corrected this problem. --Denkmal 00:41, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] This article is a POV mess

Sources need to be cited. This article seems to just be someone's opinion written as fact. The term needs to be discussed for what it is - a subjective label that some people apply to some other people. Also, the term has different meanings in different contexts - whether it's someone in the states with hostility towards germany and germans due to a prejudice that they're all nazis or a person in germany who opposes his government's policies and is thus labled by some other germans as "anti-german." i'm not even sure how pervasive the use of that term is in that context. see the Anti-Americanism article for a good example of what an npov article might look like. good luck everyone... Blackcats 08:47, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Disagree with Blackcats. My impression is that Anti-German (or antideutsch) refers to a coherent movement unlike Anti-Americanism, so the article you linked to is just completely irrelevent to this topic. (contributed by 67.188.209.23, 10:40, April 5, 2006)
It is not "a subjective label that some people apply to some other people". It is a self-chosen and self-applied label: the "Antideutsche" call themselves just that. I think it is a translation of de:Antideutsche, which does have sources, including the authoritative (but POV) page Antideutsch from the Home Office of North Rhine-Westphalia, but all are in German. --LambiamTalk 07:56, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

It IS a POV Mess. The defining paragraph for this entry seeks to establish that "The Anti-Germans emerged as a response to the rise in racist attacks and nationalism in the wake of the German reunification." This can only be read as a passive aggressive justification for anti-germanism. It should be made more neutral. The opposite interpretation is that anti-germans are not reacting to anything, but are rather the aggressors or initiators of anti-nationalist force.

Also, the writer seems to intend to disperse and broaden the membership roster of this political tendency. The article therefore lacks scholarship in this section which appears to inflate, camouflage, and mystify the subject rather than describe it.

Someone is also trying to divorce Israeli solidarism from anti-Germanism. These three paragraphs taken together form an apologia for Antifa cells, not an objective description of anti-germanism.

The at this point collapses into a tiresome elaboration of Theodor Adorno and Max Horkheimer. I am assuming this article could be written without becoming a defensive essay of Marxism. --contextflexedTalk 12/13/07 —Preceding comment was added at 14:51, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Communism, anti-German criticism and Israel

Stephan Grigat from the anti-german group "Cafe Critique" describes these three subjects: http://www.cafecritique.priv.at/interviewIN.html


[edit] the german left

i do not think you can say that "most antifa groups in germany also hold an israel-sympathetic position" and that solidarity with israel "is in fact a position widely shared, though not universally, among many sections of the german left". i live in germany and especially during the lebanon-war it was quite obvious that the majority of the german left does not practice solidarity with israel, but did even march together with islamists, namely supporters of the hizbullah. links: http://planethop.blogspot.com/2006/08/wir-sind-alle-hizbollah-heute.html -> the weblog of the editor of the weekly newspaper "jungle world" http://www.krasse-zeiten.org/foto.php?dir=libanon this demo was supported by the german left party and parts of the radical left wing. in fact most of the german left is very antiimperialist, antiisraeli and antizionist. and, btw, you should mention the anti-german solidarity with the usa and the uk and their war against terror.

[edit] Difference between Anti-Germans - Anti-Nationalists

The Anti-Germans did not call for "unconditional" support for the regime of Slobodan Milošević. (I don't know any argument for this.) They criticise the war, because it helped the islamistic UCK and their seperistism.

The difference to the Anti-Nationalists ist, that Anti-Nationalists say, every Nation ist equally bad. The Anti-Germans recognise differences according the form of states: Israel ist the only state, which has a reasonable reason to exist. It is the only resort to every person persecuted by Anti-Semitism in the whole world. The world that knows Capitalism and Nations generates Anti-Semitism. That is why Capitalism and Nations should be abolished, and Israel must be the Country that exist longest.

I concur that it would not be fair to label the Anti-Germans collectively as pro Milošević. They are a heterogeneous current and their exponents can be expected to have conflicting views on just about anything. However, the Anti-German current of the mid-90s was not the same as that of today. In the works of one of the most outspoken representatives of the then Antideutsche, Jürgen Elsässer, you find strong pro-Milošević positions, plus lots of anti-Albanian statements which in my view do not only border racist stereotypes. Elsässer has later turned his back on the Antideutsche and rejoined the more traditional anti-imperialist camp. But during the initial phase of the Antideutsche current, he has been one of the most influential figures. Also, I strongly remember the positions that the Junge Welt advocated during the war in Bosnia, 1995. (This was way before a schism in the editorial office, between the traditional East German and the post-working-class West German camps led to the eventual founding of the Jungle World weekly.) At that time, both self-styled antideutsche and anti-imperialists jointly praised Milošević and denounced all reports of massacres in Bosnia as rumours. But even today, people associated with the more "hardcore" segments of the current, with whom I have personally communicated, continue to advocate a strong pro Milošević position. So, however unfair such a generalisation may seem, there is a grain of truth. --Johannes Rohr 23:13, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Neutrality, accuracy, etc.

I'm not too impressed by this article. It is certainly not adequate for the average reader of the English Wikipedia, who cannot be expected to be familiar with sub-factions of the German Autonome Linke ("Autonomous left (current)"). However, it is surprising that such an article exists at all, as the "Antideutsche" represent a truly marginal phenomenon.

Even in Germany, few people outside the radical left are aware of their existence. To put things into perspective: Most the critique voiced by Antideutsche is targeted at other radical-left factions, or even at other sub-factions of the Antideutsche current.

The first and foremost task of an encyclopaedia is to differentiate between the more and the less important. If we look at political life in contemporary Germany, the Antideutsche are without doubt of little importance.

In my view, their most outstanding feature is that they use radical-left language to justify right-wing politics. They have vigorously supported George Bushes and Rumsfeld's politics in Iraq, they have even spoken out pro Guantanamo bay, pro Abu Ghraibh. The so-called Hardcore Antideutsche (most promimently represented by the journal "Bahamas") have mostly exchanged their former anti-German convictions by anti-muslim sentiments, which includes support for and admiration of right-wing populists such as Pim Fortuyn. While they are regularly bashing moderately left media such as the daily die tageszeitung, many hail right-wing newspapers such as Die Welt, Germany's most outstanding right-wing conservative daily. To go even further: Personally, I have spoken to Antideutsche who openly favour the "transfer" of all Palestinians from "the territories" to Jordan, something, that even openly islamophobic right-wing Germans wouldn't easily demand.

However, according to my personal observations, the Antideutsche current has its future already behind them. With the war on Iraq turning more and more into an undeniable disaster, they have lost much of their former attractiveness. Many observers judge that this movement has already passed a point of no return from the bourgeois conservative, islamophobic environment, where many Antideutsche have since taken refuge...

Anyway, in short: Make it clear that this is a marginal faction, please don't make too much fuzz about it... --Johannes Rohr 22:11, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Great to hear your opinion... Branding everyone associated with a certain opinion as right wing is probably indeed the most sophisticated form of denuniciation. But working on the article might be more helpful than that.--Carabinieri 12:15, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Mind you, how would you label Die Welt or the current US administration? I would say, that "right-wing" is a faily appropriate, non-polemic description. Second, I did not start editing right away, because having been involved in editing de:Antideutsche, I am well aware, how controversial and contested this topic is. Third, what also deters me from getting involved, is the current messy state of the article. Generally, this topic is better for some ranting then for serious article work. It may become easier in a few years time, if my observations are correct and this current is more and more becoming history. Adequately judging such a phenomenon in retrospect is probably easier. --Johannes Rohr 15:50, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

In comparison with e.g. the former SPD-Greens government in Germany, I would not label the Bush administration as right wing. The former enthusiastically supported the Fascist UCK and its opposition to the Iraq war was mostly motivated by blatant anti-Americanism and economic interests in the Middle East (illicit trade with Hussein's Iraq as well as legal trade with its neighbors). Further prominent members of the Greens (Christian Ströbele, for example) have openly spoken out for the fascist Ba'athist regime and anti-Israeli terrorism. On the other hand, such politics are not really exclusively right wing, if one considers the fact that most of the post-WWII left wing has been pro-PLO (and most recentlyparts of it pro-Hamas).--Carabinieri 17:37, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

While what you wrote, is a truly authentic representation of core beliefs held in the Anti-German current, it certainly is not what I would call NPOV. With all due respect: The simple fact, that the Bush administration represents the right-of-centre segment of the American political spectre is something, that cannot be seriously disputed. I won't go into details, even though I feel that some of your above statements are gross misrepresentations. But I have been through this kind of discussions way too often, and I feel that it is nothing but a huge, fat waste of time. --Johannes Rohr 13:20, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I was presenting my POV, just like you were when you wrote "In my view, their most outstanding feature is that they use radical-left language to justify right-wing politics" for example. Are you seriously claiming that what you wrote was NPOV?--Carabinieri 13:43, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Anyway, what I was trying to show is that the simplistic formulas "right=bad" and "left=good" are complete nonsense.--Carabinieri 13:42, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Nope. This is not about good or bad, but about right and left. Why? Again, simply because it is an outstanding (although not entirely unique) feature of Anti-Germans that, while identifying themselves as "communists", they have increasingly assumed political views, which are typically associated with right wing politics. And outstanding features of a particular subject should be mentioned in the respective article. --Johannes Rohr 15:15, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Adding image

It seems that the following is an Image from a demonstration of the Anti-Germans (according to Talk:Militant anti-fascism) . However, I didn't manage to find a way to make it fit nicely into the article. Can anyone help me with this?

Image:Hamm02.jpg

Tal :) 15:59, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

To include a picture requires to say what the picture shows. On Talk:Militant_anti-fascism#Image, the image has the caption Antifa's demonstration against anti-semitism and in support of Israel, in Hamm 2004.. Unfortunately, the link given as a source on Image:Hamm02.jpg seems to be dead. I'm afraid to just include this picture with this caption would be original research. About a year ago, there has been a lengthy discusison about a similar problem on the German page Diskussion:Antideutsche#Beanstandete_Teile. The recent stage of discussion there is (since August 2006) to remove some pictures of antigerman demonstrations from the article, with the reason given that original pictures of an event donated by wikipedians are allowed only if there has been an independent press coverage about the event. Otherwise, the picture would be original research. In our case this would mean that this picture could be included only if the article would refer to an independent source which confirms that there has been an antideutschen demonstation in Hamm 2004.--Schwalker 10:04, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Kurz and zionism

I think that the reference about Robert Kurz and his School is incorrect. They don't support zionism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.18.243.13 (talk) 02:12, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Reference to Robert Kurz deleted

It was false. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.18.243.13 (talk) 12:33, 22 March 2008 (UTC)