Talk:Ante Starčević

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Contents 1 POV 2 Extremely POVy 3 CRoatian sources on Starčević's role 4 category 5 No one responded 6 What is the problem??? 7 Starčević's racism 8 Last two edits

Talk page archives:

• Talk:Ante Starčević/Archive 1   March 2006 through August 2006.

[edit] POV

This article is very POV. Come on, this guy must've done something good. --PaxEquilibrium 19:41, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

The claim as given above - is not substantiated. --BarryMar 00:23, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Hm? No, really, the current version makes it looks he was nothing - but a Serb-hater/anti-semitic. --PaxEquilibrium 20:52, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Extremely POVy

This article is, say, 40% truth, 40 % semi-truth/lie & 20% shadowy "the rest". Unfortunately, I don't have the time to work on it (or any other text, for that matter), but in its current form it presents a gross distortion.

• it gives more than 50% space to Starčević's alleged "racism". In fact, Starčević was a typical 19th century liberal, English-type, who mixed sympathies for idealized Islamic polity as exemplified in Turkey, dislike of all things Byzantine & Russian czarist and the nascent ideas of social Darwinism (which didn't play much role in his worldview, since his outlook has remained essentially pre-scienfic). His "racism"-to call it that- was a minor thing compared to Marx's and Engels's [1]

• presentation of his "Slavoserb" neologism is incorrect. Its implication is that a contemporary nation, Serbs, are an "entity" he attached this neologism to. In actuality, main "Slavoserbs" ("Slaves" plus "Serfs" (nor an exact translation- "Servus" is a servant, or someone with subservient mentality) were his political opponents- most notably archbishop Strossmayer, a Croat of half-German extraction. True, Starčević was fierce in his political/polemical attacks (anyway- is there such thing as equanimous polemic ?) & frequently harsh and one-sided. But-to proclaim him to be a "racist" is a complete nonsense.

• a non-negligible part of the article is a lie. For instance, it claims that the top expert on Starčević, Croatian historian of Jewish origin, Mirjana Gross, has claimed that Starčević was an anti-Semite & racist. This is as far from the truth as possible. Whoever read Gross's monumental monograph on Starčević (ca. 800 pages)- and not distorted misquotations published in ideologized provincial papers, knows that such allegations are pure fiction.

I could go on and on, but this is enough. I don't have the time to waste, so I implore conscientious wikipedians to counter this Greater Serbian propaganda (after all, it boils down to it.)Mir Harven 18:28, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

• • I've read all discussion preceeding to your claim. I do not see any reason that we have to discuss any of your claims that were already rejected and which were reiterated here or paraphrased here. The latest comparison of this provincial and Balkans politician to Marx and Engels, and the way it was done, does not make sense to me.

Your ignorance & bias are not the measuring stick here. The article will be changed, and significantly so. The text is a blatant example of undue weight.Mir Harven 05:17, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

• • Using phrases like the presentation of his "Slavoserb" neologism is incorrect. Its implication is that a contemporary nation, Serbs, are an "entity" he attached this neologism to. you did not explain anything - except your opposition to the existing editorial work.

The relevant text (unfortunately, in Croatian only), will be presented here in the form of quotations of Starčević's admirers Antun Gustav Matoš and Miroslav Krleža, as well as encyclopedic entry on him from Yugoslav 1982. encyclopedia. Mir Harven 05:17, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

• • According to the discussion you've already had, looks like that you did not ever read the Mirjana Gross works. The phrase monumental monograph on Starčević (ca. 800 pages) you've used above is not proof that you did it.

I don't intend to argue with POV dogmatists. Mir Harven 05:17, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

• • Due to the fact that, except meaningless phrases, sensless comparisons, and baseless claims - which deserves only ultimate rejection - I do not see anything that could be regarded as rational and a subject of any further discussion.

--BarryMar 21:31, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Rubbish. Mir Harven 05:17, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] CRoatian sources on Starčević's role

(It would be nice some enthusiast help translate the following text into English).

Opća enciklopedija, Jugoslavenski leksikografski zavod, 1982.

STARČEVIĆ, Ante, političar i književnik; r. 23. V 1823. u Žitniku, u. 28. II 1896. u Zagrebu. Gimnaziju završio u Zagrebu; 1848. promoviran u Pešti za doktora filozofije. God. 1861. izabran je za velikog bilježnika Riječke županije, ali je 1862. suspendiran i kao protivnik režima osuđen na mjesec dana zatvora. Za nar. zastupnika Hrvatskog sabora biran je 1861, 1865, 1871. i od 1878. do kraja života. Pored polit. aktivnosti S. se bavio poviješću, filologijom, knjiž. kritikom, filozofijom, a pisao je i pjesme, drame i polit, satiru (Pisma magjarolacah). Osnivač je i ideolog Stranke prava. S. i njegova stranka od 1861 — protivno od svih ostalih građanskih stranaka u Hrvatskoj, unionističke, samostalne i narodno-liberalne (od kojih je prva bila apsolutno za Peštu, druga za Beč, a treća se kolebala između Beča i Pešte) — zastupaju politiku pune nacionalne slobode i nezavisnosti: ni pod Beč, ni pod Peštu, nego za slobodnu, samostalnu Hrvatsku. Od prvih svojih napisa iz 1861. do zadnjeg svog govora S. je punih 30 godina neumorno dokazivao da je glavna i najpreča stvar osloboditi se austrijskoga sužanjstva i da za hrv. narod nema života ni sretnije budućnosti »dok bude pod Austriom-Madjarijom«. Dosljedno je zauzimao krajnje neprijateljski stav prema »umišljotini koja se zove Austrija; u kojoj su se vlade i vladari... urotili protiv narodima«. Najvećim neprijateljem hrv. naroda i glavnim uzročnikom svih njegovih nedaća S. je smatrao habsburšku dinastiju. — Prije F. Supila i S. Radića S. je bio od strane klerikalaca najviše napadani hrv. političar. Godinama su ga oni žigosali i denuncirali kao »buntovnika, neznabožca, antikersta«, koji »ruši sve naredbe Boga, ljudi i crkve«. To dolazi otuda što u drugoj pol. XIX st. nitko nije tako oštro i tako argumentirano ustajao protiv negativne uloge klera u nacionalnom i polit, životu Hrvatske, kao što je to desetljećima činio S. Tri su glavna uzroka njegova antiklerikalizma: što je crkva kulturno unazađivala narod; što je služila tuđinskim ugnjetačima Hrvatske; što je različitost vjerske pripadnosti zloupotrebljavala za širenje nacionalnoga razdora u jedinstvenome narodu. Sjeme razdora u narod baciše »Isusovci i Austrija« {Djela III, 214). »A u puku zapadne crkve, gde potiče štogod dobra i poštena, to prečesto dolazi samo otuda, što on ne sluša i ne sledi popa« {Djela III, 216). — S. je u drugoj pol. XIX st. najuporniji i najdosljedniji pobornik demokr. narodnih prava i polit. sloboda, uvjeren da je narod potpuno sposoban da sam upravlja sobom i državom: »Moje tverdo osvedočenje stoji: da se sam puk najbolje upravlja« {Djela I, 188). — Vjerujući u nar. jedinstvo Južnih Slavena, S. je neko vrijeme smatrao da se to jedinstvo treba manifestirati i u jednom jedinstvenom, hrv. imenu, otklanjajući svako drugo ime, a naročito ime Serb kao nenarodno, pa i pogrdno. Ali kada su se pokazali negativni rezultati tog nastojanja da svi naši narodi prihvate hrv. ime, on je napustio svoje stajalište. U Slobodi od 23. marta 1883. S. je izrazio svoje shvaćanje da nije važno ime, nego zajednička borba za stvaranje slobodne i samostalne države: »Glavna je stvar, da svi rade za narod i za domovinu, a neka se zovu kako im drago... Naše cepanje, naša nesloga stoji samo zato, jer ih izvana uzdržavaju i ojačuju... mi ne verujemo, da je gladnu i na studeni na pr. Srbu drugačije, nego na pr. Hrvatu... Zato, makar se svi proglasili za Hotentote ili nas se svaki zvao posebnim imenom, samo da budemo svi slobodni i srećni!«

Antun Gustav Matoš

Antun Gustav Matoš: Strossmayerov spomenik (esej u knjizi «Vidici i putovi», 1907; prenesno iz A.G.M: Izbor iz djela, knjiga 2., str.31., PSHK, Zora-Matica hrvatska, 1967.)

... Pa ipak taj muž ne bijaše dugo samac. Ostao bi odista bez mjerila u baruštini Hrvatske Raucha i Hedervarvja, da ne dobi dostojnog savremenika u Antunu Starčeviću, blago nama!

Popunjavahu se, ali ne kao Schiller i Goethe, već kao suprotni karakteri i ekstremi koji se dodiruju. Starčević je bedemska planina, zatvorena, puna vuka i ličkog hajduka, Strossmaver je blaga i bogata slavonska ravnica. Stari ima znanje solidnije, Strossmaver opsežnije. Prvi je ekskluzivan, drugi tolerantan. Prvi je učitelj energije i mržnje (egzistencija žuči je opravdana), drugi profesor ljubavi i poezije. Stari je stoik i velik prijatelj Muhamedov. Biskup je fini kršćanski epikurejac, nježan kao sv. Ivan, najdraži Spasiteljev učenik. Strossmaver je svjetski čovjek sa ponašanjem opata i virtuoza Liszta, ljubimac dama; Starčević je plebejac »hiperdemokratskog nosa« (Kovačić), divlji ikonoklast s obličjem Silena i djevičanstvom pustinjaka. Ovaj diplomat, onaj doktrinar. Satirik i apologista. Puritanac i katolik. Pazarište i Osijek. Literat, boem — i velikaš hrvatski i grof rimski. Jedan dervišina narodne pjesme, drugi biskup V. Hugoa. Oportunist i radikal. Cinik i retor. Mrzilac plastike i njen obožavalac. Veliki književnik Starčević prezire dangubice književničke; Strossmayer, obožavalac beletristike, nije književnik. Demokrat i aristokrat. Starozavjetni moral u demagoškom civilu i galilejska tolerancija u katoličkoj uniformi. Dva pretendenta kao Rousseau i Voltaire, Tolstoj i Turgenjev. Dva tipa našeg narodnog karaktera i naše cerebralnosti, i odsele se ne može roditi inteligentan Hrvat bez sličnosti s njima. A obojica bijahu u mladosti klerici. Obojica su klasici svojim obrazovanjem i karakterom, zdravljem i umjerenošću, antikvarni legitimiste, lojalni i odviše vjerni, prijatelji francuske politike i kulture, energični do tvrdoglavosti, pomalo sektari, inadžije i nenavidnici, i kao Štroca što ne nađe svog Saint Simona, tako Stari nema hrvatskog Boswella. Jedan i drugi ljubljaše hrvatsku kapljicu. Bijahu ljubomorni, jer im je jedina ljubav bila ova naša nesrećna, nesrećna zemlja..... ...

Miroslav Krleža

Miroslav Krleža: Panorama pogleda, pojava i pojmova, 1.-4., Sarajevo, «Oslobođenje», 1975.

(str. 444- 446)

ANTE STARČEVIĆ

LUCIDNOST Koliko god to paradoksalno zvučalo, ipak je istina: najlucidnija naša glava, koja je našu stvarnost promatrala s najpreciznijom pronicljivošću i koja je o toj stvarnosti dala slike za čitavo jedno stoljeće književno i govornički najplastičnije, jeste glava Staroga Ante Starčevića. Bio je to čovjek, koji je jasno gledao bezizlaznu »krivuljaču« hrvatske politike i, braneći »žlicu našeg mora« i stopu gladnog našeg primorja od madžarske grofovske bagre, on je kroz nekoliko decenija pljuvao po našim pripuzima, šuftovima i huljama, po nitkovima i varalicama, krivokletnicima i opsjenarima, koji tjeraju našu »seljačku marvu« da brsti trnje pod tuđinskim, madžarskim i bečkim zastavama. U sveopćem bezglavlju i bezakonju devetnaestoga stoljeća, između bunjevačke dogmatike, krpa, zakrpa, prikrpa i sveopće kulturne »kerpljačine«, mučen ubitačnim slutnjama, Starčević je gledao madžarske pre predene "tate slobode", urotu naše gluposti, krštenu našu dijetenklasnu živinu, nakot, blago, marvu i prokletu pasminu našeg prošlog stoljeća u magnatskim sur kama, gdje prodaju narodne interese za bijedne peštanske stipendije, a kao Starčević tu našu stvarnost nije gledao tako jasno nijedan naš umjetnik onoga vremena. 1933

MRZITELJ AUSTRIJE Starčevića je anektirala ultramontana desnica, crno-žuta mafija, najperfidnija i najgluplja od svih u našoj novijoj političkoj historiji, a između tolikih drugih naših spomenika i Starčević očekuje svoje pranje. Starčević je zamrzio Austriju zbog jedne, po vojničkim oblastima nepravedno odsječene graničarske ruke, a ta odsječena graničarska ruka bila je pravoslavna, dakle srpska. Starčević je volio da se »utopi u slavjanskome moru« više nego da krepa pod kopitom »germanskoga kerda«. On se usprotivio uvođenju njemačkoga jezika u naše škole, on se usprotivio da se na Harmici podigne spomenik Jelačiću, koga je smatrao narodnom sramotom, mizerijom i sažaljenja dostojnom kreaturom. On je pozdravio hiljadugodišnjicu kijevske biskupije telegramom, koji je bio zaplijenjen, i u Skerlićevoj ocjeni toga čudaka ne bi trebalo mnogo mijenjati, čovjek, koga je formirala jedna nepravedno odsječena pravoslavna ruka, imao je više moralne fantazije nego sveukupna naša inteligencija sve do ruske revolucije i austrijskog sloma, a naročito pak ona, koja se isključivo time pak ona, koja se isključivo time i bavila da siječe ruke na temelju Starčevićeva programa. 1947

SNAGA JEZIČNOG IZRAZA

Sve je kod Starčevića ostalo verbalna pobuna državnopravnog, jednostranog ma nijakalnog saborskog govornika, ali da je on, promatran iz današnje retrospektive, jedini temperamenat i jedina glava, koja je umjela da se uzdigne do proročke snage jezičnog izraza, to je nesumljivo. U mračnom klupku samostalaca, praktičnika, domorodaca, rodoljuba, ilira, nazovipoštenjaka i narodnjaka, u sveopćem siromaštvu, pokvarenosti, žalosti, pijanstvu i bijedi madžarskog robovanja, pun gnušanja i gađenja nad tim trubilima, što črčkaju gluposti pod naoblačenim madžarskim nebom, zaglušen od govedarskog čavrljanja naših otimača i lopova u plemićkoj surci, on je gledao naše sive smrdljive dronjke stvarnosti jasno, i u tom "čehanju čunja" našega prošlostoljetnog politikantstva, on je prezirao sve povukodlačene fantome naše stvarnosti, i taj svoj prezir izražavao glasno i smiono decenijima. 1933 ....... To be continued, along with the comprehensive rewriting of a very stongly biased text. Mir Harven 05:17, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I'll be diligentltly on guard. This article got very high mark - and, moreover, we have to respect the other editors' work. You already tried to 'comprehensively rewrite' this article - and based on your announced intentions to repeate the already seen scenario - looks like there will be nothing to discuss.--BarryMar 22:48, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Why did You say my claim is unsubstantiated?

Are You saying that there is nothing good that Ante Starcevic did? How did he become Father of a Nation then??? --PaxEquilibrium 20:54, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] category

I removed category "Starčević's racism and its followers" because it does not seem to fit in a page that is supposed to be on starcevic. If we had sections about people and their "followers" then people like Vojislav Šešelj and Slobodan Milošević's page needs to be updated with all of their "followers" that used some of their ideas to promote their ideals, many of which are still in Serbia's politics today. I think many people here just want to sabotage his name, but bear in mind that the man created a legacy, and there is more to him than the unfortunate prejudices he had. There are squares and streets named after him in almost every major town in the country. Whatever prejudices he had were not the main point of the man, certainly not to earn enormous paragraphs of text. --Jesuislafete 06:29, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Please, read the discussion above, do not make false claims and false accusations, improper and meaningless comparisons. The article is not about Serbia and Serbia's politicians.--BarryMar 16:05, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

I HAVE read the discussions above, and what I am doing is not vandalism, you have no right to say that. Why is so much text spent on every quote you can find? What am I doing that is vandalism? Can you elaborate on that? What don't you like what I am doing, and what do you have against Starcevic? And don't try to dodge the question like you did above. Are you telling me that Starcevic's prejudice quotes are more important than the Legacy section you deleted?? That there needs to be paragraphs after paragraphs repeating basically the same thing? There is a reason why he is called "father of the nation." Back yourself up better. --Jesuislafete 18:13, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

p.s. I double checked the vandalism page, and I found that "Excessive lengthening: Adding copious repetitive or meaningless content to a page." is something that you seem to be doing. And just because I shortened the paragraphs (I did not delete the political idealogy section, so you cannot accuse me of purposely removing texts to hide information) does not mean I did it for no reason--it was incredibly repetitive. --Jesuislafete 18:28, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Can you, please, stop vandalizing this article? Your claim that you've read the discussion does not hold. If so, you'd learn that the editorial you are vandalizing was a consensus among few editors. Your claim above "Excessive lengthening: Adding copious repetitive or meaningless content to a page" is a slander. Otherwise, you have to prove what you've claimed!

Also, You have blanked out the whole paragraph, targeting just the text explaining in details Starcevic's racism and his followers' work.--BarryMar 23:15, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Here's what I see BarryMar--you only come on wikipedia to edit Starčević's page, you've done very little else, and from what else I can see from your edits, only want to make Croatia and its people look as bad as possible. Does it make you sleep better at night knowing you insert the most lengthy quotes you can find? And you never answered my main point: the point of an encyclopedic article is to summarize and present facts in a way that's educational, not to throw in as many quotes as you can from whatever authors you find support your view. You seem super-excited every time you edit this page (and this one alone) which makes me question even more your motives. I regularly contribute to Wikipedia pages, on all sorts of pages, not just one.

However, if you chose to be mature about it, I will negotiate with you about the article, I am more than willing. My main focus against this article is that 1) the category --Starčević's racism and its followers-- is stupid and not true, taken completely out of context. I must go because the first part of the paragraph has NOTHING to do with Starčević--what does it matter when his book was published? Did you know many Croatian books were not allowed to be published under the Kingdom of Yugoslavia? Does it now make more sense to you why it was published under NDH? And your claim against Veselica is pure rubbish and speculation taken out of context: "...president of the Croatian Democratic Party, expresses his enthusiasm that the author had given "relevant answers" at the highest intellectual level." Once again, did you know that there was more to Ante Starčević that his prejudices--like the facts that he advocated for Croatian independence and was a parlament member who wrote about many things, not just how much he disliked Serbs and Jews? Yes, I know that is hard for you to believe. That explains why he, and many others, thought Starčević gave 'relevent answers at the highest political level'. He was a politician! Do you know there is a square or named after him in almost every town for these reasons?

Furthermore, the paragraph and title alone say that the only contribution Starčević had was his racism, and his only followers were racist--that is extremely misleading and POV. Starčević is considered "the father of the nation" a title he did NOT recieve from the only reasons you seem interested in listing. Why don't you list the good he did to Croatian history and its people (don't answer, I already know why.)

Need I further remind you that the reason why quotes are discouraged is just because a person wrote a book, doesn't mean they are right. Many of your "quotes" are nothing more than people's opinions, many taken out of context. Moreover, excessive quoting is bad because it usually only focuses on one thing. The only thing you seem interested in is "more proof that Starčević was a racist" "ooooh, look, another quote I found that says Starčević hated Serbs! let's add that to wikipedia, along with the other 4 quotes I have from other books." And this sentence: "In his book, this famous and world-renowned historian even did not mention Starčević as a political figure." I'll tell you why BarryMar, because this man was interested only with what you are interested as well. And the fact that he devotes only several pages to Starčević further explains it.

Once again, I would like to remind you that quoting something from a book does not mean you are right. Esp. with biographies, many people choose to write from ceratin points of view and their own perspective. The fact that you chose to only focus on Starčević and his bad points rather than anything good he wrote and did shows that you do not care one bit about Wikipedia or its standards--you just write what you like, without regards to anything else. Negotiate with me the rest of what you love about this article. And need I say again, don't delete my legacy category.

Here, I'll end off by giving you a new person you can maybe focus on in wiki: Vojislav Šešelj. Since you like racist people, I suggest you read up on him, or even go to Youtube.com and watch what he had to say about the Bosnian and Croatian people while in the Hague. --Jesuislafete 00:09, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Here, I rewrote the earlier section summarizing some of the quotes in case of any copyright violations.....if anyone wants anything added, put it below to discuss, and hopefully a compromise can be reached:

For a while, Starčević thought that the South Slav peoples should all be called Croats. He refused any other name, "especially Serb as non-ethnic and offensive", and believed that Slovenes were "mountain Croats". Once he was faced with negative reactions, he gave up on that idea. He expressed his new attitude in Sloboda, issue of March 23, 1883: The main thing is this: everybody should work for the people and the homeland, and let them call themselves as they wish... We have disputes and dissensions only because they are supported and strengthened from the outside... We believe that hungry and cold Serbs and Croats feel the same... Therefore, everybody can assume the name of Hottentots, every person can choose their own name, as long as we are all free and happy!...

He wrote a whole tractate about the Jews in which he stated that they were "breed" without any morality or homeland, in which any participation in public life could be dangerous. His main enemy were the Serbs, whom he often called "Slavoserbs" (along with any other Croat who supported a union with the Habsburgs, Hungary or Serbia. Later, after years of imprisonment for his nationalist stance by Vienna, Starčević began using the term "Slavoserbs" as a separate etnic group, or "breed", ranked, as humans, lower than the Jews, who he claimed were less harmful. Some of his eccentric views provoked negative reactions even in his "Party of Rights". On that occasion, the Party member Erazmo Barčić (1894.) described Starčević's mockery and racism as "throwing mud at people and primitive cheeky invectives".

--Jesuislafete 03:34, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] No one responded

No one has responded to any of my points in the talk. I am severly disappointed that you would just reverse without even reading what I wrote in the talk. The accusations that Giorgio Orsini has made against I have already explained why I did above. Apparently, you need to become more familiar with the official definition of Wikipedia vandalism: Vandalism is any addition, removal, or change of content made in a deliberate attempt to compromise the integrity of Wikipedia. The section I removed in no way compromised the integrity of Wikipedia. I have already explained why that section is faulty and redundant, not to mention it basically only mentions ONE person from the SDP party, and the fascists during ww2. And Giorgio Orsini removes every recent (after-ww2) figures I put there who were increasingly influence by Starcevic. By removing that relevent information, you are participating in vandalism. The reason why I removed the sectin I mentioned is explained. The reason why I shortened the other one is because it was basically repetitive and non-wikipedia like--too many redundant quotes when it is supposed to be a summary. I offered to negotiate with others on that section. If you wish to add more to it, by all means, add it to the talk page and I'm sure we can reach a compromise. Check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Vandalism. --Jesuislafete 01:55, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I've already responded this way:

• you blanked out two paragraphs - which documented clearly his racism and his racist' legacy
• also you removed a number of references this way
• "made in a deliberate attempt to compromise the integrity of Wikipedia." is a public slander. Please, avoid repeating it again.
• I preserve a consensuated version which was a result of extensive work and apparent compromise!
• your 'references'

1. ^ Mark Biondich, Stjepan Radić; the Croat Peasant Party and the politics of Mass Mobilization 1904-1928, University of Toronto Press, Toronto, 2000.
2. ^ Marcus Tanner, Croatia, Yale University Press, New Haven 1997.
3. ^ Stipe Mesić, Kako je srušena Jugoslavija, Mislavpress, Zagreb 1994.

• are marginal or irrelevant to this subject

--Giorgio Orsini 02:34, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Giorgio Orsini, excuse me for being frank, but you don't seem to care about anything except editing pages that make Croatians look bad, as I look at your edit pages. How am I top believe you are impartial? Are you from Croatia at all? Do you understand it's history? You take such a keen interest, and I would like to know why. Is it because I am involved with it and you are keeping track of my edits? I noticed you were never involved with this page until I came along. You have vandalized MY contributions. Answer this: do you know that Starcevic is called the father of the nation? You think what I am trying to do is force a "positive" POV on it (as opposed to your clear negative POV)? From what I can see, you removed my sections WITHOUT explaination, while accusing me of removing information that I have explained! Explain why you removed them, they are clearly sourced. You believe just because he was prejudiced against Serbs and Jews, he has NO RIGHT to have anything good about him on? The reason why many Croatians admired him is for his prejudiced views ONLY? Nothing else? And I'm not allowed to add in anything? You didn't even add those sections in--they were done well before you, and you don't even know what you are arguing for, for the way you avoid any compromise.

You know full well I left in the category documenting Starcevic's views towards Serbs and Jews, for they are an important part of him, but the way it was written violates wikipedia and encyclopedia standards. For one thing, it is EXTREMELY redundant; it basically repeats the same thing over and over again, not to mention, pushes on an opinion when it is not supposed to be--for example, on the wiki edit pages, it mentions that you are only to present FACTS, not opinions. They specefically say not to write "Hitler was an evil man" but to explain throughout the article what he did that was bad. The version you are pushing specifically says "Starcevic was a racist." I summarized the paragraph and left it for people to add on some things, but no, you just insist on reversing without talking about it.

As for your protestations over removing 2 paragraphs as vandalism take a clear look at Wikipedia's policies:

Removing all or significant parts of pages, or replacing entire established pages with one's own version without first gaining consensus. Sometimes important verifiable references are deleted with no valid reason(s) given in the summary. However, significant content removals are usually not considered to be vandalism where the reason for the removal of the content is readily apparent by examination of the content itself, or where a non-frivolous explanation for the removal of apparently legitimate content is provided, linked to, or referenced in an edit summary. An example of blanking edits that could be legitimate would be edits that blank all or part of a biography of a living person. Wikipedia is especially concerned about providing accurate and non-biased information on the living, and this may be an effort to remove inaccurate or biased material. Due to the possibility of unexplained good-faith content removal, uw-test1 or uw-delete1, as appropriate, should normally be used as initial warnings for ordinary content removals not involving any circumstances that would merit stronger warnings.

I removed the quotes from the Starcevic section because there were too many: I don't know if you went to college, but one of the cardinal rules of a college writing class is to avoid excessive quoting, and if you look at other wikipedia pages, none of them look even remotely similar to the Starcevic page. I summarized the rest of the quickly, thinking someone else might add in another paragraph of their own, or maybe one more quote, but no one even bothered any negotiation.

Here's another vandalism rule: Excessive lengthening--Adding copious repetitive or meaningless content to a page. THAT is my explanation for the majority of the repetitiveness I have removed. The whole "important sections" you mention are extremely repetitive quotes that don't say anything new. Just because it was added there before, does not mean it has a golden place there

Once again, my main point in editing this page is to remove the blatant attacks against him, but I still want to keep in the other "bad" things about him because yes, it is important. But just because someone was prejudiced or racist, does not mean you have the right to repetativly blow up the page with rep. quotes. And you removing any references of his influence of good people is also vandalism from what I can see--you don't even look at it, you just reverse right away, and say that I am trying to make him look positive, which again, brings me to doubt you know even anything about him or his impact in Croatia, especially during the fall of communism and the war for independence. Do you at all acknowlege anything he did or any of the people he influenced to be called "father of the nation?" And your last comment: "I preserve a consensuated version which was a result of extensive work and apparent compromise!" just explains that you don't know Starcevic enough to make any of your own contributions--you are just reversinig to an earlier page without any knowledge.--Jesuislafete 03:10, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

"are marginal or irrelevant to this subject" I cannot believe you would stoop that low, and not assume good faith and look past whatever personal feelings you have against me. What makes you think that they are irrelevent? Who are you to decide that?--Jesuislafete 03:17, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Furthermore, this section is unsourced:

What thrilled him so was the consistently expressed racist hatred against the Serbs.--that is unfounded an POV-- It is sufficient to submit one quotation that explains the sense and content of this book, which far outdoes the current demonization of the Serbs--my god, if that isn't POV writing, I don't know what is--: " it was not without reason that I tried to show how the Serbs today are dangerous for their ideas and their racial composition, how a bent for conspiracies, revolutions and coups is in their blood."

and just read how absurd this sounds: "In his book, this famous and world-renowned historian...." And once again, it is 'vandalism' to remove quotes--just because a "historian" wrote a book, does not mean that he is writing NPOV and everything he writes should be in--he is not even referenced, and I googled him and can't find anything on this "famous and world-renowed historian." That is why that section goes--if you want to add more to the other section, than go ahead, but avoid excessive quoting. --Jesuislafete 17:34, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I googled his name wrong, but when I did it correctly, I found out he is extremely radical and controversial, many books are written against his 'controvesial' and 'radical' views.--Jesuislafete 17:42, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] What is the problem???

Could you, please, stop writing these lengthy monologues in order to justify your cutting off hugge portion of this biography related to his racism??? Do not you see that, no matter how many times you are calling upon the Wikipedia rules, some rules you invented childishly - you cannot hide your bad faith edits???

How come that you even do not know exact reference title? Is your "Marcus Tanner, Croatia, Yale University Press, New Haven 1997" actually Croatia: A Nation Forged in War By MR Marcus Tanner, Published 1997 Yale University Press? What it has to do with Starcevic's life and work? Tanner was just a correspondent - not historian and how his writing might preceed those coming from the world renown historians as A.P.J. Taylor and Mirjana Gross about the very Starcevic hand his party?

If you ever had that book in your hands - please, tell us publicly on which pages Tanner mentioned Starcevic? On which page he metioned him second time and in what context? How it supports the text you wrote here as your 'contribution'?

--Giorgio Orsini 01:10, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Giorgio Orsini, I've had enough of you dodging my questions and observations, you didn't mention half of them. Let me say this to you in words you can understand: in regards to your insults to me, putting the word contribution in quotation marks, I wonder whether you know anything at all about Ante Starcevic, besides what you read on the Wiki page before. I have seen your past edits--you only edit on pages that make Croatia and it's people look bad. That saddens me deeply. What saddens me even more is that you follow my edits and reverse anything I try to do on this page on rude accusations of 'vandalism' and saying that I am trying to put a positive POV to this article. Yes, Giorgio Orsini, I am trying to put a more positive view on this article. You know why? Because in Croatia, Ante Starcevic is a popular and admired figure--he is called the father of the nation. ("Danas se često naziva ocem domovine"--from the website linked at the bottom.) Do you know why? I doubt it. But he did not become father of the nation through some unfortunate prejudice essays/articles he wrote against Serbs or Jews or basically anyone that he thought threatened Croatia. He influenced so much of our history, he was one of the first to rise up against the imperialism and unfairness of the Hapsburg Empire--"Najvećim neprijateljima hrvatskog naroda Starčević je smatrao Habsburšku dinastiju." He advocated for Croatian independence by modern means--meaning more democratic than monarchist--"Pod utjecajem ideja francuske revolucije borio se protiv ostataka feudalizma i zalagao se za demokratizaciju političkog života." He was an active participant in democracy, having founded his party of rights. He fought for Croatia all his life--this is the reason why he is so admired in the country, why there are streets, squares, buildings, schools, found in every major city.

Pertaining to your question above, yes, I have read that book Croatia, by Marcus Tanner. I actually never heard about it until I came onto Wikipedia. I saw it was referenced many times here on various pages, so I went to the library to read it, and I am very glad I did, for it was a very good book, and I learned a lot I didn't know myself. And the book is actually called 'Croatia' with the subtitle 'a Nation Forged in War', I didn't know whether I should add the rest of it in. It actually mentions Starcevic quite a lot, since he was very important to Croatian history and it's a book on the history of Croaita. and I'd like to thank you for calling my attention back to the edits, for I mistakenly put the reference on the wrong sentence, it is supposed to go on the one right before it.

Once again, I wonder why you take such an interest in a person you know nothing about, and a country you feverently dislike. I take from your posts and background that you know relatively little of the Croatian people, culture and history. I repeat once again, Ante Starcevic is known as the father of the nation for a reason. He appears on the 1000 Kuna currency--the very highest--for a reason. He has places and streets named after him for a reason. He was and still is an incredible figure among the Croats. You edit out everything I put in there, and never answer any of my explanations, have the nerve to tell me I invented Wikipedia rules and use bad faith, you never appeared on this page until I did, you revert back to edits that are poorly written and none which you yourself wrote, you never attempted to compromise or discuss anything rationally with me, you refuse to let me add anything good about Ante Starcevic, want to limit his page only on things that make him look negative, even though he is a large figure in Croatian history for the reasons I give, and influenced almost every Croatian politician in the 20th century. I explained my reasons for removing the last sections entirely--the first part is not even accurate--it blatantly accuses a politician of things that are not even sourced. Moreover, you never even read wikipedia's rules--it specifically says that articles are supposed to be encyclopedic and not accuse people, especially in biographies. I suggest you reread my posts and answer my questions and claims fully, instead of just reverting every single one of my edits. I have told you before I was willing to compromise on this page, and instead of reverting, you can add on what you thought were most important, but you never took me up on it, you just revert. From what I see, you leave small answers in the talk page because you don't have anything to say to back yourself up, you just revert, revert, revert. Answer this please: how do you know so much about Starcevic? And are you willing to help me make the page better, or will you just keep reverting?--Jesuislafete 04:40, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

To make it clear to you--the only thing I cut out that "proved his racism" were the many of the quotes. I rewrote the rest of the section to summarize it. But it is still there, and apparently, bothers you that it is not over 5 paragraphs long. How long should it be then? One more paragraph? Add in another quote? What exactly?--Jesuislafete 05:08, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Starčević's racism

It's a lie. Ante Starčević was never be a racist or anti-semit. His deputy and successor as president of Croatian party of rights was Josip Frank, croatian Jew. --89.172.226.221 10:43, 22 April 2007 (UTC)Croat

Didn't Josip Frank convert to Catholicism, openly say that he's Croat and advice that Croatian Jews could/should get assimilated into Croats? --PaxEquilibrium 00:09, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

First, this is the article about A.Starčević, not Josip Frank.
Second, what does mean "converted to Catholicism"? Does that change anything? Giving advices means "racism"? What kind of joke is that? Kubura 08:12, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but Frank was his closest associate. Yes it does change. Just like Josip Pančić is not a good example of Serbian Croats. There's no joke, and the mere point was referring to the anonymous user above.

How do you respond to some's advices that Croats should all convert to Eastern Orthodoxy and consider themselves Serbs? Would you say that's an advice? --PaxEquilibrium 19:30, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

He was such a racist, that Jewish organizations brought the flowers on his grave on the anniversary of his birth (few days ago). Kubura 08:33, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Wow...that sounds really bizarre. :) --PaxEquilibrium 20:49, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Last two edits

Case I : Zmaj

As it can be seen here

1. (cur) (last) 23:26, 20 June 2007 Zmaj (Talk | contribs) (19,390 bytes) (Croatian, not provincial)
2. (cur) (last) 23:25, 20 June 2007 Zmaj (Talk | contribs) (19,401 bytes) (→Historical findings about his political ideology - let's not beat about the bush)
3. (cur) (last) 23:24, 20 June 2007 Zmaj (Talk | contribs) (19,425 bytes) (doesn't warrant a separate chapter)
4. (cur) (last) 23:24, 20 June 2007 Zmaj (Talk | contribs) (19,468 bytes) (→Starčević's racism and its followers - Wikipedia articles are not a place for irony)
5. (cur) (last) 23:23, 20 June 2007 Zmaj (Talk | contribs) (19,554 bytes) (→Starčević's racism and its followers - this rant has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with Starčević)
6. (cur) (last) 23:21, 20 June 2007 Zmaj (Talk | contribs) (21,845 bytes) (→Starčević's racism and its followers - POV assumption of what a person thinks)
7. (cur) (last) 23:20, 20 June 2007 Zmaj (Talk | contribs) (21,930 bytes) (→Starčević's racism and its followers - what's this? extending one person's racism to an entire nation? shame on you!)
8. (cur) (last) 23:15, 20 June 2007 Zmaj (Talk | contribs) (21,939 bytes) (→Literary and linguistic work - why was this put here? it's completely irrelevant for the biography of Starčević; it could maybe be moved to the Karadžić article)
9. (cur) (last) 23:05, 20 June 2007 Zmaj (Talk | contribs) (23,424 bytes) (the photos are different, so don't remove them!)

user Zmaj, except a plain disqualification of the previous editorial work - as it can be seen above - did not support his changes by any valid and rational explanations or knowledge. Also, he throws incivil and rude accusation of the previous editors by saying what's this? extending one person's racism to an entire nation? shame on you!

Case II : Spylab

His edits are summarized below

1. (cur) (last) 13:46, 25 June 2007 Spylab (Talk | contribs) m (23,190 bytes) (→Footnotes - corrected my typo)
2. (cur) (last) 13:45, 25 June 2007 Spylab (Talk | contribs) (23,191 bytes) (→Footnotes - added cleanup tag because some of the notes are way too long)
3. (cur) (last) 13:17, 25 June 2007 Spylab (Talk | contribs) (23,155 bytes) (→Literary and linguistic work - corrected grammar & spelling in poorly-translated sentence)
4. (cur) (last) 12:58, 25 June 2007 Spylab (Talk | contribs) (23,202 bytes) (added 2 tags because there are many problems that need to be corrected in this article)
5. (cur) (last) 12:55, 25 June 2007 Spylab (Talk | contribs) m (23,133 bytes) (deleted strange and unnecesssary adjective in intro)
6. (cur) (last) 12:52, 25 June 2007 Spylab (Talk | contribs) (23,144 bytes) (→Literary and linguistic work - deleted totally POV sentence that also had horrible spelling & grammar)

Asked to elaborate the Edit summary inline notes here [2] . No rational response was ever gotten to this request.--Giorgio Orsini 22:49, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Oh, I'm a "case" now, am I? FYI, the first three chapters of the article have been almost entirely written by me, in an objective and truthful manner. What valuable information did you contribute to the article? I've seen only trolling so far. You have brought more harm than good to Wikipedia. So, yes, shame on you! Shame on you for disrupting other people's hard work. --Zmaj 07:26, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Giorgio Orsini has been blocked indefinitely as a sock puppet. This sock puppet list shows that a single person edited this article with at least three sock puppets (Purger, GiorgioOrsini, IP number), maybe more. It is obviously a maniac who keeps creating sock puppets to vandalize Croatian articles. There is no reason to suppose he or she will give up. --Zmaj 21:52, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

No, he will not. Next to expect is user:Guivon to suddenly appear here. He has strikingly similar agenda to proved sockpuppets of user:Purger. See Special:Contributions/Guivon. Let's wait and see. --Ante Perkovic 13:19, 22 August 2007 (UTC)