Talk:Anshe Chung

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This article must adhere to the policy on biographies of living persons. Controversial material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted or if there are other concerns relative to this policy, report it on the living persons biographies noticeboard.

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This article was nominated for deletion on 18 February 2006. The result of the discussion was keep.

Contents 1 Notability 2 Early career 3 Reputable sources 4 Issues 5 Original author 6 Stubbed 7 Protected 8 Why all the Reversions 9 Article Cleanup Co-Ordination Point 9.1 Discussion 10 Major page overhall 11 Controversy 12 Sources 13 Spelling issues 14 Language links 15 Griefing Neutrality 16 Copyright dispute: collected sources 17 "Biography articles of living people who have requested removal" 18 Griefing and article balance 19 Taken Down? 20 Fair use rationale for Image:BUSINESSWEEK 01MAY06 COVER.gif

[edit] Notability

Anshe Chung should not get this much space in the Wikipedia, since the name doesn't refer to anything in reality, and is just the name of n avatar in an online game that has a small membership and has only been around a few years

Well, the name does refer to something in reality - it is the name that someone uses to operate a business in an internet based environment. It is no different in that respect to a brand name or, for that matter, a stage name used by a musician. As far as the "small membership" is concerned, there were 40,000 user accounts in mid 2005, and around 7 million in mid 2007. I don't really think that qualifies as a "small membership". StanPomeray 12:58, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

And what does your name refer to? A pointless brainless wanker that nobody gives two fucks about thats what. Fuck off jealous little boy.

Probably right, for now; particularly due to the lack of sources. Merge into Second Life? +sj + 04:18, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, merge or delete, this feels like a vanity entry created by the company itself, espically with the fierce editwar.

Merge or delete is probably the best option, considering. Doubtful that this entry was created by Linden Lab, more likely by Anshe.

Anshe may be the first or one of the first avatars who financially supports not only her creator but also several employees. That is a remarkable milestone in virtual world history. I also disagree with the statement that there is a lack of sources. Her story has been all over the media, including publications such as Fortune and Business 2.0. She maintains a list on her own site that is quite impressive. I currently can't think of another avatar who achieved similar recognition in the mainstream media. The recent controversy about this article on Wikipedia only adds to the notion that there exists a lot of public interest.

I created the article and I'm not Anshe. I created it because Anshe is listed in several other business directories and is generally considered a milestone of virtual business. The fact that it was Second Life in which she did business is less significant than the fact of the business's success, thus I would oppose a merge. Hyphz 14:06, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Opposed to Merge, as well: there is no way the reasons applied to this entry to merge/delete will withstand application to other entries for fictional representations of actual things/people. If the title of a book can have an entry, so can the title of a virtual person. If anything, this deserves its own entry more than mention in the article about SL, except in a general way that would include the less-well-known but comparably large-scale, or only the next level of scale, IMHO. 67.81.50.181 14:12, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose merging. Anshe Chung has made her "name" well known within the game Second Life and outside of it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Martinbane (talk • contribs) 18:58, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Early career

I'd like to ask that Valery42 please refrain from attempting to re-write the paragraph about Anshe's early career in SL. Valery42 claims that "A person's private life and sexual preferences are not appropriate topics for a Wikipedia entry". My response to that is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_famous_prostitutes - this is a page about prostitutes and not escorts, but serves to show that private life and sexual preference already exist in other entries.

Some may object to this early career of Anshe's, but it is "verifiable" through a notecard in SL that has Anshe listed as creator and has pictures of her avatar attached to it (Reference Second Life Notecard "Anshe Chung - female escort" Creation date: 2004-04-18 06:58:28). Additionally, there are many individuals who new Anshe in those early days.

None of these may satisfy verifiability, but I think that applies to the entire entry - not just this paragraph.

It's one thing to place information about sexual life in an article about famous prostitutes, who are only encyclopedic for their sexual life; I don't think it's really relevant to the current notability of this subject. Also, we are, and justifiably so, more careful about putting in unverified and not-really-relevant information about living people that could be harmful, as opposed to that which isn't harmful. Please do not add it without strong and verifiable justification.

Also, please note that reverting continuously may get both parties blocked from editing for edit-warring by the "three-revert rule". If you have disputes about the content, discuss it here, or pursue dispute resolution.

Oh, and FWIW, I support a merge.Mindspillage (spill yours?) 17:42, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

The justification for adding that information is that it was those early careers (including, but not limited to, being an escort) that formed the base for her current empire. It provided the contacts and the money to begin a highly successful career as SL's largest land dealer. This entry is basically a bio about Anshe and I think in that context it is relevant.

I have followed the discussions on the closed Second Life forums that preceded the editing war of this page. They led me to the conclusion that we don't face an attempt to provide relevant information, but another outbreak of jealousy by lesser SL business owners who did not get as far as Anshe did. Their objective is to add as much negativity as possible until it either hurts Anshe's reputation or the whole article gets deleted. As far as I know, her early days in Second Life she spent as an entertainer, before she turned to creating content. This included stuff such as event hosting, teaching, art performances and what she calls "private entertainment". Wether any of that was rated mature I don't consider relevant to this article. It wouldn't surprise me in a mature rated virtual world full of porn. In any case, whatever she did at that time she probably did under the assumption of anonymous roleplay in a closed like minded community. This should be considered when editing an information resource that might be accessed by her family and RL neighbours who in addition may not be able to distinguish between the roleplayed avatar and the creator.

I am not a participant in this game and I feel that this persons "early career" consisted of engaging in sexual interaction with individuals in exchange for virtual money. I have no axe to grind and no agenda. It is very interesting and I believe people deserve to know what this "public figure" did during her "second life".

You anonimus idiots feel good about destroying a public individual's reputation .. I wonder where all your skeletons are hidden .. and not just on-line .. Delete the whole thing .. Real people have families and friends .. thay don't need to be slandered this way.

It is not slander if it is true. Imagine all the entries if we were to "sanitize" them so that controversial truths were not included. As far as "Real people have families and friends" - one should have brought that into consideration before entering into that business, not after.

Agreed, yet again. Detailing HOW Anshe made her "rise to the top" of SL is important, if this is to remain a Wiki entry. If Anshe is a celebrity, as was posited in the original delete thread, then she'll have to deal with the negative consequences of her actions and past, a la the Kennedys, Paris Hilton. I myself would rather this whole entry be deleted, and restarted as a entry on the corporation itself, rather than single out one "avatar" as the end-all. It would smack less of vanity that way.

I have protected the page due to the edit war and due to the fact that unsourced derogatory information has been repeatedly added to the article. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 05:06, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

• Chung's early career is "common knowledge" and should be included if only in reference to the great lengths she goes to hide the fact of her sexual start. (given the fact than it is such a common profession within the game). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Martinbane (talk • contribs) 19:02, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Reputable sources

I think you are allowed to post information, but it has to be sourced to somewhat reputable sources.

Here are some examples of reputable sources which have been written about Anshe Chung:

DER SPIEGEL - 17.01.06 Reichtum aus dem Nichts

Financial Times - 13.01.06 When Fantasy becomes Reality

Business 2.0 - 11.28.05 The Virtual Rockefeller

The Second Life Herald - 1.01.06 Avatar of the Year, Second Place: Anshe Chung

Associated Press - 11.21.05 Virtual Trump

Fortune Magazine - 11.28.05 From Megs To Riches

San Antonio Current - 11.10.05 New Economy, Same Rules

Information Week - 11.08.05 Online Virtual World is Part Fantasy, Part Civics Experiment

The Mercury News - 6.25.05 It Pays To Get A Second Life

The New York Times - 5.29.05 The Game Is Virtual. The Profit Is Real

Los Angeles Times - 5.16.05 Virtual Power Brokers

East Bay Express - 3.23.05 Games Without Frontiers

Here is another reputable source, posted by Guni Greenstein, the husband of the husband and wife team:

("husband of the husband and wife team": From what I understand, Anshe Chung is the avatar of Ailin Graef and Guni Greenstein is the avatar of her husband Guntram. They both seem to have a share in the business that has been named after the wife's avatar. It also has been reported that they on occasion use each other's accounts to access business assets tied to those accounts. The article as it stands now might not reflect this accurately. Do we have some sources on this matter? Adam999 06:29, 20 February 2006 (UTC))

http://forums.secondlife.com/showthread.php?t=82750&highlight=guni

At ANSHECHUNG.COM we believe in a Second Life world that is more than an endless random collection of land parcels. We believe in diversity, culture and places worth exploration, while at the same time empowering people to realize their own dreams.

In the new continent of Islandia we are working on a large scale consistent development that will feature different landscapes ranging from very structured areas to wild mountain ranges. As you know we do this within a very tight timeframe and within the constraints of a very competitive land market. However, we are up to the challenge and we are confident that we will be able to provide you an area that will be attractive to both land owners and visitors

http://forums.secondlife.com/showthread.php?t=27199

"my land baron buddies will bash me if they find out who i am. but we barons wanna let the linden drop a lot. not all barons just the cool ones. we r all great buddies. we wanna people get cheap cash to buy up the land we r sitting on. we talked with ige and they are cool and already lowered prices. they get our lindens when we sell land. got a special deal. it is all win-win. way cool. its been decided. linden will drop below 3 bucks so u better cash out fast. yeah i sure want to panik u. but if needed we can use 5 million lindens we put aside to dump on the market. if u cash out fast we can do with dumping less but it will all go way down. u look at the market now. we just played with 300k yesterday. tomorrow is weekend we open the gates and u better run for ur buck. lol. yeah. now u get 3.70. how much u get tomorrow. better sell while u still get some cash. we are the linden money gods now. us rulez!"

Notice the almost deceptive change in posting styles, clearly these people can and are willing to manipulate their online personas.

That second quote is derived from a joke thread. It is a mockery of numerous conspiracy theories that preceded his post. Sadly, some individuals deliberately and repeatedly have tried to misrepresent it as a serious statement. He is manipulating his online persona as much as a cabaretist who imitates Castro is manipulating his real persona.

Anyways, I hope we don't delete this page. I think pretty much everyone will agree that Anshe is a big part of history of the virtual world, a world that is increasingly becoming more important and more recognized (see above) by mainstream press everyday.

Joke thread? If you find it funny trolling the community (if you read that thread, you'll notice that no one else is sharing in 'the joke'), then yes, I guess it is a joke. However, most respectable business people do not engage in such antics.

No one else is sharing in the joke? If you read that thread, you'll notice severals posts identifying it as an obvious joke (example: #36) and declaring it as funny (example: #92) or just plain laughing (try to find a page without any LOLs, ROFLs, etc.) Clearly much hilarity ensued -- a lot of people had a lot of fun with that thread. Respectable business people don't engage in such antics? I haven't seen Google miss a chance yet.

Anyways, I am mostly pro-anshe / pro-guni, I am just trying to add some facts to this dialogue.

Adam999 .. it is actually against the SL TOS to share accounts, so officially, I doubt you're going to find a lot of sources for this. However, in order to do anything of use in SL you do need to share accounts from time to time again, so it's pretty probable that they do share accounts. I don't think you actually need to say that they do share accounts, but I think it's worthwhile adding that in order to run a business together you would pretty much have to share accounts.

[edit] Issues

First of all, Anshe did provide an escort service as part of her Second Life business career, so it is entirely relevant. Secondly, there is not reason not to include information about an individual/corporation if it is factual. Thirdly, this talk section has clearly been edited by a number of people who have not contribued to Wikipedia much before. It is appropriate to use the Plus sign at the top of the page, near the edit this page section, to add comments to a discussion page, not to haphazardly edit with no clear way to follow the discussion.
Xinoph 17:54, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

oh ok, well why have an "edit this page" then?

so people can respond to something in the middle of the page, like this67.81.50.181 14:24, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

I think you need to reference a credible resource if you wish to say that she was an escort. I think if you dig through the forum archives or new world notes you might find something, however simply saying "this is common knowledge" is rather lazy, wikipedia or not.

I went directly to Anshe and confronted her with the issue. I can only recommend doing the same. She was surprisingly open and easy going about her days as a "private entertainer" and "tea house girl". She seemed to be proud of her roleplaying, even though she said it wasn't in any way relevant to her career or success in Second Life. After listening to her, I believe that using the western terms "prostitute" or "escort" to describe what she did would be misleading, if not insulting. When talking about the actual person behind the computer one could maybe describe it as "interactive storytelling". While refering to the avatar I could imagine the terms "geisha" or indeed "private entertainer" as fitting. Not relevant to the article though. I would still leave it out.

Due to the nature of Second Life, this is both an article on the avatar - the character - and on the business of AnsheChung.com. As part of the biography of the well-known avatar, it certainly should be included: it was how she got her start in the Second Life economy! If a real-life billionaire had made money first as a personal escort, it would be part of the article if it was verifiable. So why should it not be a part of this article? Plus, the money from both that and her content store gave her the capital to begin the real-estate business, so it is directly relevant. I believe the term "escort" would be an appropriate term, and not misleading or insulting: an escort is someone who is paid for their company, whether it is of a sexual nature or not. There are escorts out there who are merely escorts (not prostitutes in hiding) and besides that, there's no reason to think that either term is an insult - especially if both are legal, double especially if both occur in a virtual world. Xinoph | TALK 17:54, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Original author

As the original article author I feel I should chip in..

• I am not Anshe, nor Linden Lab, nor do I work for either of them.

• I created the article because Anshe is considered an important indicator of the potential for virtual business and has attracted substantial success as a result. I would oppose a merge with Second Life because Anshe's importance lies in the fact she demonstrated real money could be made for virtual goods, not in the fact she succeeded in a particular world.

• Since the page is about the company, not the individual, the comments about having been an escort are not relevant IMHO - she may have been an escort/teacher at one stage, but she wasn't running the company Anshe Chung at that time.

This page is marked as "biographies of living persons" and therefore is NOT about the company. 66.92.167.230 18:46, 25 July 2007 (UTC) EPThorn

[edit] Stubbed

Due to continuing concern over this page, I have removed most of the unsourced content. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 22:34, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Protected

Since there's been edit warring again, I've protected this page for now. Everyone, please be sure you cite reliable sources for the info you put in here. Material from your own personal knowledge or experience, even if true, isn't verifiable and can't be used in an encyclopedia. Also, if there's disagreement, don't just keep reverting. This talk page is for working out disagreements related to article content. Friday (talk) 21:32, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Why all the Reversions

It became obvious That Anshe and her Cohorts were simply using this page as an advertisement for Anshe's Business. It is totally Irrevelent how many areas she owns, Other services where she buys and sells other line currency. This was totally irrevelant. There are also many negative facts that have surfaced that are just as relevant as the positive ones. I recommend that only SYSOPS be allowed to edit this page for the next month or so. This should clear up a lot of things.

EDIT: Normally This Wouldnt bother me but AndreasZander is trying to say I added information to make anshe look bad, In fact I did not add anything, BUT TOOK OUT information that was advertizing and obviously put there for no other reason to advertize or spread gossip. AndreasZander is not a registered user in Second life, It should also be known that although I do participate in SL and have been there a long time. I do NOT use the name Bovar Bellow in second life. It should also be stated that like most of Second Lifes participants, I do not participate(post)in the Second Life forums either. AndreasZander is entitled to his opinions but please dont blame me for posting negative things about Anshe. They were here a long time before I showed up. I would still like to recommend that this page remain SYSOP only edit only, or Merged into the SECOND Life Page.

It should also be noted that I only started editing this page a couple of weeks ago, NOT a couple of months ago. ________________________________________________________________

AndreasZander ______ Bovarbellow is an individual who, since two months, is trying to get this page deleted or turned into something that makes Anshe look bad. This becomes quite obvious to anyone who takes the time to review his edit history on wikipedia. During all this time he has not added any relevant information whatsoever, but numerous insults and unsourced evaluations of her person. I am not Anshe nor a "cohort", but I respect her. I agree with the locking of the entry and hope that now some SYSOPS will perform real research and add sourced and balanced information to the article.

By chance I know who posted the article in the first place. He is a direct competitor of Anshe in the Second Life land market. This once more invalidates Bovarbellow's claims and shows us that somebody is here to throw mud. AndreasZander 08:46, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article Cleanup Co-Ordination Point

Man!

WTF are ppl doing on second life. Have they no life? Fine, but why are they puttin ACTUAL MONEY in it? How stupid is it! Morans... They only help these parasitesget rich. It sucks. Wikiperiferium shudent advertize for them. 212.149.255.90 21:36, 20 December 2006 (UTC) ~¨~~

I'm sure they have a life, a bit like people who spend time discussing Wikipedia articles (like you) also probably have a life. But if you do not play Second Life it really isn't going to impact on you, nor is it any of your business, is it? So what are people doing on Second Life? Well, some of them are just chatting on it, some of them are doing some scripting, some of them are doing 3D design, some of them are listening to music, some of them are designing clothes, some of them are running businesses. It isn't really much different from running any other web based business. They are putting money into it either because its their hobby and they want to do it, or in order to fund businesses that ultimately make profits. How stupid is that? Well, probably not particularly stupid if you want to do it. It might actually be a good idea if you ditched the idea that anyone who doesn't do something that you like is in some way flawed or stupid, because it does rather tend to make you come across like some rather ignorant 13 year old, which I'm sure wasn't the intention. Oh, and learning to spell might be useful too. StanPomeray 13:06, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Major page overhall

I just rewrote this entire thing by hand. I'm a sufficient enough expert in Second Life and with Anshe in particular that I can be considered a "Subject Matter Expert." :) I'm welcome to suggestions/comments, but considering the vitriol this woman engineers I'd prefer they be discussed before an edit war erupts. Danke! - mixvio 04:31, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Controversy

The passage about so called controversy behaviour was deleted because it contained no evidence at all but at lot of accusations and has to be seen as business-damaging attacks of envious person who try to get into the business themselves. The dubiously value of these accusations is obvious as they use indirect language, mention anonymous business-damaging campaingns in a way the negative touch falls on Anshe's reputation instead of the anonymous attackers and mention ridiculous statements she would not speak English well, just to transport another rumor in the same sentence.

I would like to remind of the purpose of Wikipedia and ask the community for help. Please correct the formatting of this text if I have done a mistake in this regards. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.66.4.148 (talk) 09:52, 4 January 2007 (UTC).

Dear all, Dear editors,

I would like to start a discussion about where the edge is between a fact-telling encyclopedia and a business-damaging rumors campaingn.

Due to my opinion it is necessary to give facts and references when somebody should become accused of something.

Due to my opinion it it not acceptable to e.g. write somebody can 'not speak English' well (what is not of major relevance in this context in an encyclopedia and not well measurable) just to transport some negative unproven rumors in the second part of the sentence.

Best regards, Martin Schaller

I will restore any and all edits that are made arbitrarily. All evidence is fully sourced, confirmed, and about issues that Anshe has been reprimanded for publicly and clearly. There are no attacks here, there are no lies or slander, and I would remind anonymous accounts who have never before edited on Wikipedia except to revert this issue to avoid becoming involved in matters that reflect their in-world interests, such as editors of the SL Herald. If you're not going to be unbiased, you're not welcome to participate. - mixvio 16:03, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

The passages which were deleted had sources to back up their allegations. Unsourced accusations would be deleted, as this is a violation of our WP:BLP policy, but if they are sourced, then the only thing that should be done is to balance them with explanations from the people who support her. Deletion of criticisms is not acceptable. User:Zoe|(talk) 23:51, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Zoe, I appreciate the help. I'm going through to find some better sources for the one thing I removed and the few that are left with citation requests. - mixvio 01:39, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I would assume that the new article published on theage.com.au on Jan 17th, 2007 titled "Anshe's kinky past revealed" constitutes a valid source for the information people have been discussing? Random name 22:04, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sources

The SL Forums cannot be used as sources for an article for the following reasons:

1. WP:RS - Persistence; Someone who doesn't have an account cannot validate the source, since the form the source takes will be a login screen.
2. WP:RS#Bulletin_boards.2C_wikis_and_posts_to_Usenet
3. WP:V - A source that requires registration and logon to view a source does not satisfy WP:V as not every editor can go in and check. "Free Registration" would be a counter-argument if not for the fact it is unreasonable to expect everyone who wants to verify the source to make an account.

Signpostmarv 17:40, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia policy states that in cases where the source requires registration, such as the NY Times online used to in order to read the entries, it's perfectly acceptable to post the source in the relevant talk page until it is read by those who request it, and then immediately have it deleted. Furthermore, policy only suggests it's inappropriate to use forums as secondary sources; they are used as primary ones. I don't think it's fair or responsible to discount the forums of a video game when said forums are the news system and main mode of communication. Furthermore, SL's forums are extensively policed by residents and moderators and are as accurate for the medium as anything else. - mixvio 18:27, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Please provide a link to the policy in question. I think you'll find that the NY Times was cited as an example of an exception due to it (the NY Times newspaper) being a reliable source.

SL isn't a video game. Nor a computer game. Please don't confuse the two with what SL is.

If you listen to SecondCast episode 3, you'll notice that the fact that the "forums are extensively policed by residents and moderators" isn't a good thing.

One of the quotes attributed to Anshe's husband wasn't even posted by Anshe's husband, and as such the post was a secondary source.

NY Times is a reliable source. The SL Forums is not a reliable source. From what I can tell, a reputable secondary source that refers to the SL forums is preferred to using the SL forum link itself.

Signpostmarv 19:19, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Second Life is most certainly a video game and a computer game. One that I've been a participant of for far longer than you possibly could have been, so I understand the nuances and reality of it far more than you possibly could be. The quote attributed to Anshe's husband was attributed to him because it was posted, by him, to the forums. That's a primary source. You're significantly off base, and lofty wordplay doesn't change that. SecondCast is a resident-run program, unaffiliated with both Linden Lab and Second Life itself. - mixvio 21:20, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

It has been well established by Linden Lab, and by repeated consensus on the Wikipedia that Second Live is not a game. However the discussion on this topic should be avoided in this thread.

The quote, if you actually check the source, was made on a post by Enabran Templar. This, at best, makes it a secondary source. However, I could not find the messages anywhere prior to that post in the thread, and although I did not look in the latter part of the thread due to the tone of the "quote" leading me to believe that it is not an actual quote. Hence it was removed.

SecondCast is a resident-run podcast, not program, and is affiliated with Linden Lab, since John Swords assists with the voice-enabled Town Hall meetings.

The quote in question is a dubious secondary source made in a tone and using language not associated with any posts made by him in the thread, so I cannot see how you can possibly conceive of that quote as attributable to him.

Signpostmarv 23:14, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

It was the repost by Enabran Templar because yes, you're quite right, the original source doesn't exist anymore. Anshe and her husband have been accused and caught editing past posts to delete incriminating statements. However Enabran is an exceptionally well-established resident in SL with no reputation, at all, for making such a statement up. The quotes aren't taken from that thread specifically, additionally, which is why you can't find them there. Enabran was quoting statements made in another thread that no longer exist (because they were deleted by Guni) to highlight why he didn't feel Anshe Chung Studios was capable of handling the project highlighted in that thread. This is a subject for an alternate discussion, however. As for the tonal quality, both Anshe and Guni switch between perfect English and "I can barely read this, what the hell" frequently. This has been caught and pointed out many times. Follow these three posts: [1] [2] [3] And please don't argue semantics with me. Program, podcast, game, what difference does it make? - mixvio 23:56, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

By your own admission, the quote cannot be verified, because the original source does not exist. Using a secondary source that refers to a primary source that does not exist that is held on a forum that requires login doesn't make any logical sense whatsoever, as the source cannot be deemed reliable.

You cannot claim that can be used as a reliable source. Your statement "Enabran was quoting statements made in another thread that no longer exist (because they were deleted by Guni)" demonstrates precisely why the SL forums cannot be used for sources. The posts can be edited. And since search engines can't go in and archive the forums, there's no way to go into some archive and get a link to the original post.

There is no evidence to support your claim that Enabran's quote was ever made by Guni. While you can claim that Enabran has no reputation for making statements up, you're ignoring WP:RS#Bulletin boards.2C wikis and posts to Usenet "we have no way of knowing who has written or posted them, and in part because there is no editorial oversight or third-party fact-checking."

Also, what was wrong with using the original post ? [4] Caught and pointed out many times ? that's only once. Save those links as sources for the Anshe Chung#Linguistics. However the problem becomes that to give a concise representation of Ailin Graef's linguistic skills, you'd need to go perform original research citing probably hundreds of posts in an unreliable, closed environment.

Signpostmarv 12:30, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Anshe sought me out to talk to me about this stuff. The conversation was rather surreal (and long!) and after it I would just as well remove the controversy section entirely. The he said, she said stuff will always be an issue, but it probably doesn't belong here in the first place. I won't delete it myself (because I seem to get yelled at when I do :P ) but that would be my recommendation. Either way I'm detaching myself from this page and I'll let someone else deal with it. - mixvio 23:01, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Web forums are not a reliable source when it comes to the verification of the notability of the subject of an article. But they are a reliable source in discussions as to what is being said about the subject of the article in those forums. User:Zoe|(talk) 18:27, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

If you're not trying to say "these comments are true--see this web forum", and you're only trying to say "these comments exist--see this web forum", then that just isn't encyclopedic information. Lots of people have had negative comments made about them in web forums. It's hard to have a noticeable presence on the Internet without someone commenting on you in a web forum somewhere.

At any rate, this article is subject to the special restrictions in WP:BLP. You cannot include negative information about someone unless the negative information itself is sourced; a source for the fact that someone said it isn't enough. Ken Arromdee 18:49, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Spelling issues

Somebody please correct the spelling of "Devaluation" on the article. At least let us make it look presentable. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.161.74.241 (talk • contribs).

Where is it misspelled and how? I'm not finding it... --Onorem 06:14, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

OK...try checking the article again. The section about "Devauluation" was removed 3 hours ago. --Onorem 06:16, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Language links

de:Anshe Chung has been deleted[5] for irrelevancy, so remove the link. (Don't you have a bot for that?)

ok removed. -- Bovineone 02:05, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Griefing Neutrality

The person who wrote the section on griefing is clearly a hige fan of AC, because the description exaggerates the events (dancing cartoon penises are hardly "sexually explicit"). They only present it from her point of view, and neglect to mention the controversy surrounding the way she bullied news publications into removing the pictures. She claimed the photos and videos were copyright violations, which is untrue and has no grounding in law because as a non-American citizen she is not allowed to file DMCA complaints. Could we reword the section to make it more neutral? Juansidious 22:36, 20 January 2007 (UTC)2

Cartoon images can certainly be sexually explicit.

And if you have a reliable source which says that the pictures are not copyright violations, feel free to add it. Your own original research that they are not cannot be used. Ken Arromdee 04:54, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Sexually explicit: The video contains a real life photo that has been photoshopped into her hugging a real penis.

Bullying news organizations: Please provide proof. Have there been threats, lawyers involved or lawsuits filed? How has that been documented?

Non American citizen: You are saying that something is not a copyright violation because a non-American is the target. Your concept of law is mind boggling. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by AndreasZander (talk • contribs) 05:52, 21 January 2007 (UTC).

I too would like to see where in the DMCA it restricts those who can bring claims to citizens. Non-citizens have extensive use of federal and state courts in the United States on most matters. 72.144.103.202 07:38, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Linden Lab openly encourage ALL Residents of Second Life to file DMCA requests with regards to copyright infringement.

“	The DMCA process allows users of an online service to resolve copyright disputes using the adjudication systems available in the real world.	”
—SecondLife.com, https://secondlife.com/corporate/dmca.php

Signpostmarv 18:59, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Oh hey guys, look at this:

“	To Jason Schultz, an attorney with the Electronic Frontier Foundation, the issues surrounding the DMCA complaint are pretty cut and dried. "Since the general theory (in Second Life) is that you own what you create, she completely owns the copyright in her avatar," said Schultz. "But that said, she absolutely has no rights under fair use to stop people from taking screenshots or screen captures of her avatar in Second Life." Schultz also drew a comparison between this situation and a real-life hypothetical. "The analogy I would draw is if there was a car accident in downtown New York," he said, "and the driver happened to be wearing an Armani suit, and there was a photographer who took photos and published them. That photographer couldn't be sued by Armani. News is news. And fair use gives news reporters and others the right to report what they see and hear, even if it includes your copyrighted work."	”
—"The legal rights to your Second Life avatar," CNET News, http://news.com.com/2100-1047_3-6147700.html

--JohnCameron 23:31, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, this edit screwed up that section and changed it from a clear description to the vague and pov "degrading pictures." Plus, it whitewashed her story by taking out the mention of the unjustified DMCA complaint. I'm not going to just revert because it adds a source, but the old wording was much better. (I'm biased, I wrote it) Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 10:47, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Alright, I rewrote it. It could use a little more elaboration on the DMCA commentary that came up, but I'm liking the juxtaposition of the Guntram interview and the blog piece that came out the next day. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 11:16, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Sorry Night Gyr, but I can not agree with your edits. I have edited it back because you took out a lot of information. The DMCA issue was only part of the whole case. -Val

You removed all of the information I added AND restored the slanted language that got objected to in the first place. If there's anything I left out, add it or mention it here; don't remove information. I quoted the husband from the interview, so his views on it being sexual assault and pornography are clear, and included the reasoning he gave. We shouldn't endorse any of these viewpoints, though, just report what happened and what was said. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 17:41, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Someone please incorporate this article? http://news.zdnet.co.uk/internet/0,1000000097,39285484,00.htm -- Wesha 16:58, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't think it'd add anything; it's just reporting on the CNET interview already in the article. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 21:51, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

At the moment I added the above, wikipedia article didn't mention that DMCA claims were dropped, as per CNET article. Does it now? -- Wesha 05:27, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

That was a side effect of the repeated reverts to a flawed version. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 22:44, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Copyright dispute: collected sources

Though they're probably not all of the sources on the issue, a recent Something Awful Second Life Safari post has a collection of links to sites discussing the issue of Anshe vs. The Internet as far as the pictures of her violating copyright are concerned. Any way this can be used in the article?--JohnCameron 05:59, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

As far as I know, Somethingawful is the news outlet of the grievers who staged the attack. It is probably as neutral a source as an Al Quaida video documenting 9/11.

SomethingAwful is not "the news outlet of the grievers." If you want to use a comparison similar to the one you used, why not try this: Petey using the griefers' video on his website is akin to Al-Jazeera using a video given to them by al-Qaida leaders. He has no personal connection with the griefers and had nothing to do with the attack itself. Alabasterchinchilla 17:13, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

In addition, and as I noted in the paragraph starting this section, it has a collection of links to various news sources, including the Sydney-based publication that had a complaint launched against it by Graef. Of course you'd only know that if you'd actually read the link in question, I guess. --JohnCameron 23:19, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

OK, I'm a noob to the whole wikipedia editing thing, but what ive failed to see on this page and the entry on Chung is any mention of Fair use laws. If images of her avatar are copyrighted, which seems debatable, images of her or the video that was on somethingawful would be protected as a kind of news story, if it wasnt just being used to make fun of her. Even if this was the case, parody is also part of Fair use, as stated in Campbell v. Acuff-Rose Music, Inc. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campbell_v._Acuff-Rose_Music%2C_Inc.). There needs to be some mention of this as well as the acusations of bullying and also maybe the supposed deleting of the account of the somethingawful writer by youtube. have a nice day :) Hbob82 06:56, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

I think what a lot of people don't realize is that a real photo of Ailin Graef was manipulated to make her holding a real penis and that basically the same people who used that photo filmed the video. Is it fair use when I take a photo of a celebrity, manipulate it to porn, then make a video filming that photo and then distribute it? Have there been known cases of the distribution of fake celebrity porn photos and legal actions resulting from that? Are there known cases where a court ruled in favor of "fair use" in cases of the creation of such pictures? -Val

There's a difference between a celebrity photoshopped to look like she's having sex and a celebrity photoshopped to be posing proudly with a penis the size of a traffic cone. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 17:47, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

I found an interesting article with a different viewpoint of the issue: http://secondtense.blogspot.com/2007/01/anshe-chung-griefing-lessons-learned.html talk/[[User:AndreasZander]

That's a blog and fails WP:RS. I have reverted Zander's reverts, as it's clear that Night Gyr's version is properly sourced, while the revert restored quite a bit of unsourced content that shouldn't be here. If any user wants to restore the content Night Gyr deleted, that's fine as long as it's accompanied by reliable sources. | Mr. Darcy talk 20:24, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

MrDarcy, this is a dispute that involves journalists. Their articles can not be considered objective sources in this case since they are part of the dispute. My suggestion is to get hold of the sources used by the journalists. Has the communication between Anshe and Guntram and the journalists been published?

There is also no source referenced that prooves that Anshe actually provided sex for money (= prostitution). All we know is that somebody claims to possess a notecard where Anshe called herself "escort" and offers mature services. Stuff like watching a porn movie together, erotic domination or stripping are examples of mature activities that are not prostitution under Calif. State Law.User:AndreasZander: Andreas Zander

Which is why they're called erotic services, instead of prostitution. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 03:53, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

That argument makes sence. I think we can agree here. Erotic services or adult entertainment could be stated, prostitution we should avoid unless we find a better source.

Alright, so we've got that settled. Are there any other issues you have with the prose I wrote? Sexual explicitness is in there from his statements, and I'm pretty sure all the facts are included with references. Anything I'm leaving out or including that I shouldn't? Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 13:13, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Biography articles of living people who have requested removal"

When? Where? Was it to OTRS? -- Zanimum 16:09, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't know why it was there, but I have removed it. See [6] if you have OTRS access. Bastiq▼e ^demandez 20:12, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Griefing and article balance

The griefing incident is quickly fading into obscurity and yet it is a notable part of the article. Given that this is a BLP (or a Biography of a Virtual Personality), this article could be seriously expanded in other parts. Some suggestions for sources are:

• Behind the Anshe Chung DMCA compliant at cnet news
• Anshe Chung scores venture capital funding at Reuters Second Life.

Here's hoping someone with a great interest in this topic will come and help make it better. Bastiq▼e ^demandez 21:19, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Taken Down?

Wasn't there previously some information on this page about Anshe Chung's clients in the game complaining about her? Fissionfox 01:03, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Controversial material of any kind that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately, especially if potentially libelous.

BLP rules were applied it seems.

Signpostmarv 20:23, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:BUSINESSWEEK 01MAY06 COVER.gif

Image:BUSINESSWEEK 01MAY06 COVER.gif is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 11:09, 5 November 2007 (UTC)