Talk:Ankh

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Contents

[edit] Reworking

This article is atrocious, especially when considering it is about the flagship symbol for the Egypt project. It's become rambling and disorganized, as people have tacked on their own contributions without working them into the overall flow of the piece. Let's get to work, folks, and clean this up! Ganbatte! --Agbdavis 01:35, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Okay, a lot of work has been done so far, excellent. The main problem is the Pop Culture section... every other week or so someone wants to edit in their new favorite items. I think we have plenty of examples, however, maybe even too many as it is, so let us just keep the ones that are there now as a fair representation of the many places this symbol appears until the article is longer. Maybe in time we will need a separate page for examples, but the real work needs to be done first.--Agbdavis 15:15, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Miscellenia

Totally unscientific though it may be, I put in this; i received a vision that the ankh was first a depiction of a tool used in farming, which was important enough to growing the food, that it became a symbol used by the rest of the society. This would contribute to the interpretations that have been given to it in the last 200 years. Susan


"A modified version of the ankh symbol (♀) is used in astrology to represent the planet Venus, in alchemy to represent the element copper, and in biology to identify the female sex."


I don't think so. Its a similar symbol, but it is Roman in origin: Venus' handmirror is more associated with being a representation of teh female womb than the ankh ever was. Especially when contrasted with Mars' shield and spear (a rather phallic symbol).--ZZ 13:41, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I have read in a non-authoritative source that the ankh may be a map; the vertical line would be the Nile and the loop is the delta. The horizontal line represents the deserts on either side of the Nile; it represented life because the Nile supports life in between the deserts. Do any real Egyptologists hold this theory? Fishal 22:47, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Personally I always thought it looked like a person with no legs (or person with legs together), and hence represented a person. Anyone know if any mummy's were buried arms outstretched? Or wasn't it some sort of grain-growing tool?--ZayZayEM 01:14, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Do we really need the list of so many uses of the ankh in pop culture? Couldn't we just summarize in a few sentences? Peter Isotalo 19:47, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC)

I know some christians think it's satanic:

http://www.exposingsatanism.org/signsymbols.htm "Ankh -Symbolizes fertility rites and the building up of lust within a person. A spirit of Lust is the power of this union of male /female representations. Also called the Long Life Seal"

http://www.witchvox.com/va/dt_va.html?a=cabc&c=whs&id=8515 "It (the Ankh) certainly doesn't belong on a list of supposedly Satanic symbols."

http://www.bibleguidance.co.za/Engarticles/Satanskingdom.htm "Satanists use it as a sex symbol for their sexual orgies."


Rev Jeremiah Wright was just seen preaching in the friendship baptist church in dallas with a Ankh on the podium. Is this now a symbol being used in some black churches? http://www.friendshipwest.org/ http://www.friendshipwest.org/images/index2_04.jpg —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sattmaster (talk • contribs) 17:59, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Goth pop culture

I recall observing that goths are really into it. True? Kent Wang 16:13, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

Yes, this is basically true; this is said as someone who would self-identify as being or at least having once been a "goth". While it's far from being as universal as wearing black and listening to dark-themed music, many in the goth culture have interests that involve the symbol. An interest in Egyptology, both pop-Egyptology and more serious studies, is common. Even more frequent is a fascination with vampire mythology, which often invokes the symbol. Finally, many goths are also into the occult, many systems of which make use of the ankh as well. Jens Knutson 07:44, 11 January 2006 (UTC)


I hope a few people have saved their 3D red-cyan glasses to check out the nice 3D in the Coptic bust posted today.3dnatureguy 08:02, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Suggestion for Ankh Unification

I wrote about the ankh in my article Mental Gender which links it to another article, The All which is based off of Hermetic beliefs, which originated in Egypt among the elite classes. I'll just leave this for those who have already contributed to deal with for now.

KV 22:55, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Eh, I'll just do it for now, I'm a little to ansy to wait.

KV 19:12, 1 February 2006 (UTC)


I have taken KV's article down due to wild speculation and no sources or references to support his claims. If someone can support this claim, please do so, along with actual sources to proev this.

Zos 04:08, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

There are two citations to a main claim that "Hermeticism is a belief system that came out of Egypt and whose beliefs may be able to unify many of the Ankh's meanings" There are no other citations at all.
KV 06:07, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Although there were citations, none bare fruit to the topic at hand, which is why I deleted it. I notice you have changed the section, and I wont bother with it so long as it remains a concept, although I believe wiki doesnt wish to ackowledge newer theories, which is why I was disputing this.

Zos 06:19, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ankh Categorization

The following is from my talk page:

The Ankh is not truely a symbol that came from the cross, nor did the cross come from it. A specific type of cross is believed to have involved the ankh in it's design. Therefore I suggest removing Category:Cross symbols and re-adding Category:Symbols. KV 19:41, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

He has a point. While Ankh does have associations with the cross, it has different facets too - for example, it can be a phallic symbol, and so on. Let me know what others think about the categorization issue. Which one of them we should apply - or perhaps this article will need both? --BorgQueen 20:06, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Judging from the various articles that appear at Category:Cross symbols, I would not say that the ankh is out of place there. Unless that category is a subcategory of Category:Symbols, I would keep both categories. Smerdis of Tlön 21:26, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Category:Cross symbols is a subcategory of Category:Symbols, and that is why I removed the latter. --BorgQueen 14:03, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
FWIW, the article on cross would appear to compass just about any symbol that contains an intersection. Obviously the ankh predates the Christian cross, but Christian crosses are but a subset of crosses. The ankh is another. So yes, this is as it should be. Smerdis of Tlön 14:57, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ankh in Pop culture ---> Video games

Me, a long-time player of RPG tabletop and computer games, have noticed Ankh's very wide use as a symbol for "Priest magic" and/or "Holy magic" in medieval role playing fantasy games. It is really common, other gamers can acknowledge that. I think it would not be wrong to point out that in the 'Ankh in Pop culture' section, I would do it myself but I think this article is being cared for by a different group of people, so I will leave my comments here and wait for a discussion to arise before doing anything. Pentalis 22:28, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

I think it is quite okay to mention on its usage in RPG, provided you wouldn't go into too excessive details. --BorgQueen 22:35, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
I think I will go and make the edit now before I get lazy and forget about this,  :) Pentalis 22:50, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Awaiting sources - original research?

I've removed this material from the article as it appears to be two facts linked together by pure speculation on the part of the editor who wrote it. I'd like to see references for actual Hermetic use of the ankh and for meanings ascribed directly to the ankh in Hermetic documents.

There are also many weasel words in these two paragraphs;

  • "believed to" (by whom?)
  • "may be able" (editorial speculation)
  • "it is unclear...or coincidence" (editorial speculation)
  • "if the concept..." (whose concept is it, the editor's? or do we have a source?)

So what we have here are two cited facts, neither of which are directly about the ankh, spun together with a bit of spit by the Wikipedia editor who wrote it. No thanks, that's not encyclopedic. —Hanuman Das 10:03, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] In Hermeticism

Hermeticism is a belief system that is believed to have come out of Egypt and whose beliefs may be able to unify many of the Ankh's meanings. It is unclear whether their beliefs created the ankh or added many meanings, or remain a coincidence. Their concept of God was The All, who purportedly claimed: "Nous, God, being male and female, beginning as life and light, gave birth, by the Word, to another Nous, the Creator of the world;" [1]

If the concept of the ankh suggesting the joining of the masculine and feminine is correct, with the top opened up to look similar to Ω representing the feminine (genitals) and the bottom shaft being a phallic symbol, then the rest may follow. If God is both male and female, the ankh is a symbol of hermaphroditism and can be representing God. It also can be representing reproduction as both genitalia are pictured, with Nous having given birth. God is also "life and light," making those now synonymous with a symbol of God. God is certainly synonymous with power, and in the Hermetic view, "While All is in THE ALL, it is equally true that THE ALL is in All." [2] The universe or Cosmos was seen as being the same as The All, making the universe also synonymous with God, and this symbol.

[edit] "Its keylike shape also encouraged the belief it could unlock the gates of death."

Isn't it anachronistic? Did the Egyptians had locks and keys similar to contemporary ones, that they could compare to the Ankh?

Per the lock (device) article, they were the first ones to have them, 4,000 years ago.--Agbdavis 02:06, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Section about transition from ankh to cross

I am quite interested to know where the author has received all of his information for the "ankh into cross section" section of this article, as I have not heard about this theory anywhere else (and it is still labeled "citation needed"). This is especially true of its assertion that the Christian cross symbol was not widely accepted until the Egyptians (through their familiarity with the ankh symbol) made it popular. Could someone find a source to back this up? -- Grandpafootsoldier 06:08, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Resemblances

The ankh does not resemble a penis---nor the pharoah's "penis sheath"---in any way, shape or form. The head of the ankh resembles a vulva, but the rest of it demolishes that resemblance. Someone said in the article that an ankh has no anthrpological resemblance: utter nonsense, because it absolutely resembles a standing person with outretched arms---one could even impute a likeness of a crucifix. Learnedness takes a dive, when such obvious commonsensical resemblances are ignored. --PLK —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.59.70.21 (talk) 19:59, 14 April 2007 (UTC).

While I agree you are right about the Ankh looking nothing like a penis, you cannot make the statement that it does look like a man with outstreched arms because your opinion is derived from 20-21st century interpretations of art, specifically one which is familiar with the notion of the stick man drawing. Real "learnedness" would argue that it cannot be a human figure since it bears no resemblance at all to typical egyptian representations of humans. Thanatosimii 22:48, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm going to be radical and suggest we rely on the work of egyptologists, semanticians, and symbolists.--Agbdavis 22:17, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
That's... kind of what I said... Thanatosimii 23:32, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm agreeing with you... what is the problem? Did I miss something?--Agbdavis 00:39, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, I thought you were disagreeing. No problems. Thanatosimii 15:51, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
So what has been decided? Someone has reverted the changes, removing this explanation but not giving a rationale. Unfortunately I can't seem to find a proper reference on the net (admittedly I haven't looked all that hard yet) - was this what carter really though? If so, I'd like to revert the change. --Nachmore 00:58, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

I have removed this from the article:

  • "The ankh with its distinctive looped top portion clearly exhibits anthropomorphic qualities, including its other line elements and overall shape, inadvertently or not"

And I have asked 71.59.74.194 to cite a source and avoid inserting editorial statements into the article. Jeff Dahl (Talk • contribs) 04:26, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] photos

This article is indeed very popular for viewing, as well as editing, additions, and talk comments. The lead graphic, an alphanumeric-like symbol, is quite good. I think---other than links---it would be helpful and elucidative to have one or two excellent photos of representative [as well as possibly exemplary/archetypal] images of ankh objects.

[edit] Dating in Christian artifacts

A discussion of the symbol's usage in early Christian artifacts is needed. When does the symbol start occurring in Christian manuscripts?172.159.191.49 (talk) 08:30, 14 January 2008 (UTC)James M. Leonard172.159.191.49 (talk) 08:30, 14 January 2008 (UTC)jl502 at cam dot ac dot uk

[edit] Ankh Model Chakra System link

diff What does this have to do with the ankh specifically? Seeing as it does not seem to elaborate on the ankh, but rather a system that uses it as symbolism, I'm not seeing this as a good link for this article. But let's let some debate run on it. KV(Talk) 17:51, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] comparison

Compare the ankh to a Tau cross!Domsta333 (talk) 11:00, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Anthropomorphism of the Ankh

I am curious why none of the so-called experts have collected pictures of the Ankh as a being with attached arms and legs. Examples of this can be seen at http://moses1350.wetpaint.com/page/Anthropomorphism+of+the+Ankh ...How shall this information be included in the article? Iamsmallpeeps (talk) 22:36, 1 June 2008 (UTC)