Template talk:Anime voices
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[edit] Seiyuu vs. Voiced by
- Changed the template to reflect the creator's use of seiyu for the Japanese voice. Wikipedia is an excellent learning tool. Simply choosing to refer to seiyu as anything but the proper title because it is "easier" is in my opinion, a very slippery slope. People come here to learn, not to be spoonfed to the lowest common denominator. Kyaa the Catlord 08:55, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
- However, the template as it stands is inaccurate, since it essentially labels English voice actors as Seiyuu, a term which only refers to "Japanese voice actor(s)." I don't personally care whether the term Seiyuu is employed for the Japanese, but it mustn't be for the anglophones. I do, however, think it's entirely appropriate both to refer to the Seiyuu as voice actors in general (it's as valid as calling a square a rectangle or a rhombus), and to use something like Voice(s) by: to foster generality and brevity in the template. --Monocrat 22:31, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
- I added Voice Actor so it doesn't label the NA VA as seiyu. Kyaa the Catlord 11:24, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
- Now the template suffers from redundancy: "Seiyu: Takehito Koyasu (Japanese),Voice Actor: Jason Douglas (English)" strikes me as eminently verbose. Why do we need to delineate language now? But if we remove the language attribution, we're left with the question: "What is so fundamentally different about seiyu that they need to be distinguished as such?" Moreover, this doesn't address the possibility of including other, non-English-language voice actors, which Voiced by: or Voice(s): does more reasdily. Since several series have been dubbed into French and Spanish, among others, I think we need to avoid even the possibility of confusion. Thirdly, I'll admit that I'm the one who removed the wikilink, because a dozen such struck me as garish, but the template presumes that Seiyuu has been linked, which was an almost-consensus in the prior discussion. The way it's structured now requires either violating that, or having an unattractive template. Finally, it does not address my point that fundamentally a Seiyuu is a voice actor.--Monocrat 14:07, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
- I added Voice Actor so it doesn't label the NA VA as seiyu. Kyaa the Catlord 11:24, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
- However, the template as it stands is inaccurate, since it essentially labels English voice actors as Seiyuu, a term which only refers to "Japanese voice actor(s)." I don't personally care whether the term Seiyuu is employed for the Japanese, but it mustn't be for the anglophones. I do, however, think it's entirely appropriate both to refer to the Seiyuu as voice actors in general (it's as valid as calling a square a rectangle or a rhombus), and to use something like Voice(s) by: to foster generality and brevity in the template. --Monocrat 22:31, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
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- May I refer you to the page you linked to: "Conventional usage among American fans is to use "seiyū" to refer to the Japanese actor and "voice actor" when speaking of a character actor in a series translated into English." Kyaa the Catlord 17:04, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
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- Not all readers or editors of the Wikipedia are American or even fans of anime. My personal hope is to get a few articles featured and shown to the non-fan audience. Remember that the English Wikipedia is a publication for the general and global English-speaking public. See Guide to writing better articles#Think of the reader|Think of the reader. Moreover, Phorque's point is eminently valid: just click the link to see that the Japanese voice actor is a seiyu. Are you going to suggest that ADV and Funimation etc. start using "Seiyu" in the transliterated credits? If not, why should Wikipedia? --Monocrat 17:52, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
- If you're using ADV or Funimation as your role model for how to present anime, I'm terribly sorry. I'm done here, this has become silly. Kyaa the Catlord 17:59, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
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ENOUGH!
I'm changing it back to "Voiced by" as it is totally unecessary to label both. "Voiced by" is all encompassing. Besides, if someone clicks on the seiyu/actor's name they will quickly learn whether it is a seiyu or voice actor anyway. It looks messy with Seiyu and Voice actor. - Phorque 15:13, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
You may also remember we had a vote on this and it looks like most people voted on "voiced by" anyway. Please don't try to change it back without bringing the debate back to the WikiProject talk-page first and bringing some kind of consensus on your idea. - Phorque 15:20, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
- Your claim that "most people" voted for "voiced by" is totally factually inaccurate. Kyaa the Catlord 16:49, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
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- Five people voted for "Voiced by:", earning it the plurality (i.e. most votes). A total of four voted for the other English variants, and only three voted for Seiyū, making a strong vote (nine to three) against "Seiyū." Since three people voted for "Voice(d) WHATEVER +optional (Seiyū)", one could interpret that to say the margin was only nine to six against Seiyū, but either way it lost, fair and square, plain and simple, and by a wide margin. --Monocrat 18:06, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
- Unfortunately for pluralists, wikipedia follows consensus. There was no consensus to change the status quo despite how you spin it. There is no winning and losing in wikipedia. Kyaa the Catlord 18:11, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
- Kyaa, I think you lost this one. Also, what's the point of this template? Wouldn't it be just as easy to type out the text that it generates? -- Ned Scott 18:53, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
- Its actually EASIER to type out the text. I foresee a TfD... Kyaa the Catlord 18:59, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
- I strongly disagree that typing the full text is easier: "Voiced by:" requires ten key strokes, then there's the "(Japanese)" [11 keystrokes] and possibly "(English)" [9], plus X and Y keystrokes for the names. Total 10+Y keystrokes at a minimum and 30+X+Y at most. Whereas the template only requires at a minimum 17 keystrokes (including curly brackets) for just the Japanese, and 18 for both Japanese and English. If you're listing a bunch of main characters' voice actors in a series dubbed in English, that's a big relief on the joints. Automation of formating could make it worthwhile even if you're just doing the seiyu. --Monocrat 22:40, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
- Using a template to hide such code in a minor way seems to be discouraged, Wikipedia:Transclusion costs and benefits. One suggestion would be to use template substitution.-- Ned Scott 05:48, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
- Kyaa, I think you lost this one. Also, what's the point of this template? Wouldn't it be just as easy to type out the text that it generates? -- Ned Scott 18:53, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
- Unfortunately for pluralists, wikipedia follows consensus. There was no consensus to change the status quo despite how you spin it. There is no winning and losing in wikipedia. Kyaa the Catlord 18:11, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
- Five people voted for "Voiced by:", earning it the plurality (i.e. most votes). A total of four voted for the other English variants, and only three voted for Seiyū, making a strong vote (nine to three) against "Seiyū." Since three people voted for "Voice(d) WHATEVER +optional (Seiyū)", one could interpret that to say the margin was only nine to six against Seiyū, but either way it lost, fair and square, plain and simple, and by a wide margin. --Monocrat 18:06, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Subst-ing and this template
If you "subst" this template the "#if" code still remains and takes up more space than just typing the voice actors. The rational is that the template would be used for long lists of characters. I'd be cool if there were, say, two substable templates that one could use (that don't have any if statements). Someone also suggested parameterizing this template, but I'm not clued up on it.
Would we all at least agree on two substable templates per the following:
- Template 1: "{{subst:anime voice|Chihiro Suzuki}}" to produce "Voiced by: Chihiro Suzuki"
- Template 2: "{{subst:anime voices|Chihiro Suzuki|Joe Bloggs}}" to produce "Voiced by: Chihiro Suzuki (Japanese), Joe Bloggs (English)
Yes, no, maybe? - Phorque (talk · contribs) 13:57, 04 June 2006 (UTC)
- It would be a lot easier if MediaWiki resolved the ParserFunctions first before substing. --TheFarix (Talk) 02:01, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
Hey guys. Check out Template:anime voice and Template:anime voice2 for the subst-able versions. I'll start to convert articles to this format soon. - Phorque (talk · contribs) 12:09, 04 July 2006 (UTC)
