Talk:Anime game

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Isn't this just a synonym for bishoujo game, used by Westerners not familiar with the terms bishoujo game or ren'ai game? That's the only context I've heard it used. If that's all it is, it should be merged with one of those articles. If there's a significant difference, then it needs to be spelled out. --AlexChurchill 10:03, Jan 6, 2005 (UTC)

This is the first time I've heard the phrase. It seems to be a clumsy way to refer to what is more commonly simply called an anime game, or anime based game. Anime games can be of other genres than bishojo games, like the Dragonball Z fighting games, the Super Robot Wars strategy games, or the Macross arcade shooters. Note that animanga and List of animanga audio dorama were started by User:132.205.15.4. animanga game and Animanga Audio Dorama were started by User:132.205.45.148. Little suspicious? I think this should be moved to anime game or merged with anime. Animanga Audio Dorama should be merged with audio drama or dorama --24.114.252.183 01:15, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Moving this to "anime game" sounds okay: 175000 Google results rather than 600 :) I'll let you divide and redirect as you wish since I don't have much time to spend on Wikipedia these days. --AlexChurchill 17:40, Jan 19, 2005 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] The re'nai/bishoujo/eroge mess

There is currently a huge, nasty mess regarding the terminology of anime games.

Part of a series on
Dating sims and
visual novels
Distribution
AnimePlay
Dōjin soft
Genres
Dating sims
Erotic games
Visual novels
Gender target
Bishōjo games
Otome games

Here is the current infobox showing off all the anime game terms in use today. Browse through the articles; you'll notice a lot of rendundant content.

Hopefully this mess will be resolved sometime in the future. You can read a discussion of what exactly is going on below this page.

[edit] Is "eroge" more common than "H game"?

I see "eroge" more frequently than "H game" on American websites these days. Google doesn't help because it lists anything with the letter "H" and then the word "game". Neither one is an official or proper term. If no-body objects I think I will just move the article. Ashibaka (tock) 15:51, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Well, two days and no discussion... time to be bold. Ashibaka (tock) 13:30, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Is "dating sim" more common than "ren'ai game"?

Now it's time for me to propose the same thing with "ren'ai game".

"Ren'ai game" seems to be most frequently used by the Lemmasoft people, so I asked them about their reasoning:

Basically, it seems that they like Japanese words more than English ones. But this is an English encyclopedia, so I would prefer the 300x as popular English term. Ashibaka (tock) 01:46, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

They're different terms! Please, don't conflate them. They are totally different things. One of them may well be more common, in the same way that "apple" may well be more common than "orange", but that doesn't mean they should be combined.
Also, the motivation now seems opposite from the previous time... obviously it depends what websites you visit, but "eroge" would seem to correspond to "ren'ai game" as the Japanese import term only used by those who're at least partially familiar with the original Japanese, while "H game" and "dating game" are the more widely understood English "equivalents" (although I disagree that "ren'ai game" and "dating sim" are equivalent). Are we working towards the Japanese-import terms or the native-English ones? (Ironically, my own preference would be for "H game" and "ren'ai game", which I appreciate is inconsistent.) --AlexChurchill 13:26, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
Please explain how they are different... yes, "dating sim" technically means a certain type of gameplay, but it's not used that way in practice. Ashibaka (tock) 04:35, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
In the technical definition, very few ren'ai games involve the kind of statistic manipulation that characterises Tokimeki Memorial and similar Japanese SIMs. And in the more natural English interpretation, very few translated ren'ai games involve simulation of actual dates. Casual Romance Club, True Love, Girlfriend of Steel, arguably Season of the Sakura (he takes three girls out to a restaurant at one point)... but that's pretty much it. Looking down the list of English anime games available from JAST USA or Peach Princess and filtering down to those that are ren'ai games, the majority of what you see are neither dating sims in the technical SIM sense or the literal "contain a date" sense. --AlexChurchill 10:07, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
Since these are different terms I think I will start an article about dating sims, with a list of games from JAST and Peach Princess that are described officially as dating sims. For example, Kana Imouto describes itself as a dating sim on the box, and it doesn't use the word "ren'ai" anywhere, so I edited that article already. Ashibaka (tock) 05:53, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
Just a note that I have yet to find a single game where the American licensor or anyone related to the company writing in English describes it as a "re'nai game". In every case it is either a "bishoujo game" or a "dating sim". I have fixed the language of many articles to reflect this. (I know that Megatokyo guy and other fandom fellows like to say "re'nai game" so I left those articles alone.) Ashibaka (tock) 23:44, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

The below was posted by User:Omgwtflolz on Talk:Renai game: Reverted the edits by Ashibaka, because renai games are not "dating sims".

"Dating sims" COULD refer to SOME renai simulation games, I guess, but certainly not to the vast majority of renai games. Omgwtflolz 16:03, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

See the above for the discussion and motivation for this change. I personally dislike using "dating sim" in the technically-inaccurate way to encompass all ren'ai games and other games that aren't simulations of dating, but the fact remains that the official Western publishers of these games never say "ren'ai game", always "dating sim" or "bishoujo game". Fans like those at LemmaSoft mentioned on ren'ai game tend to use the phrase "ren'ai game", but the more widespread phrase (and more widely understood) is "dating sim". That's why Ashibaka made his changes to renai game that you reverted and I reinstated. Please discuss the terminology here before making sweeping changes. --AlexChurchill 14:01, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

I reverted it back. Omgwtflolz, what I'm looking for from you is:

  • Evidence that "ren'ai game" is the preferred term of people who manufacture and sell dating sims in the United States. Here are the most notable sites: [1] [2] [3] [4]
  • Contexts in which "ren'ai game" is used more frequently than "bishoujo game" or "dating sim". So far the only place I have seen this is on the Lemma Soft forums.
  • Any reasons why "ren'ai game" will be easier to understand than "dating sim" when we are writing for English speakers who may not know what "ren'ai" means.
  • If you disagree on some other point, let's take this to the Village Pump so other people can weigh in.

Thanks. (By the way, I am Shii on Haeleth's gemot and Lemma Soft forums, so feel free to drop me a line over there.) Ashibaka (tock) 02:27, 1 December 2005 (UTC)


None of those apply, but there's one important thing that you're missing. As I've said before, applying the term "dating sim" to renai games is, for the most part, wrong. The way I see it, people using the term "dating sim" are mistaken, and should be corrected. If something's wrong, it's wrong regardless of how many people say otherwise. Omgwtflolz 03:31, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Okay, so if I understand you, this is "just wrong", and your opinion matters more than those of the firms who translate and publish the games, and announce their genres?
To put this in perspective, would you agree with moving role-playing game to role-playing monster-killing game, or adventure game to role-playing puzzle game, if someone considered the latter to be more technically accurate? Ashibaka (tock) 04:14, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

It's not my opinion. It's a fact. To put this in perspective, would you agree with moving Microsoft to M$ TEH COMPANY TAHTS EVIL because that's what people say? Some people say that the Japanese name of the final boss of Final Fantasy VII was "Saviour Sephiroth". Are you saying that they're right? Omgwtflolz 04:39, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

You seem to agree with my opinion exactly. Microsoft is the name of the article because it's the name they call themselves. "Safer Sephiroth" is what that guy was called in the game because the translation team made it that way. In the exact same analogy, the American eroge publishers have dubbed their genre "dating sims" (or "bishoujo games", but that obviously refers to the BxG subset and the publishers define it as such). Ashibaka (tock) 04:38, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

You say that the American publishers refer to the games that they translate as "dating sims", and that those games are therefore dating sims. You have also edited the To Heart 2 article so that "renai ADV" has been changed to "dating sim". When has Aquaplus referred to To Heart 2 as a dating sim, then? Also, before you "fixed" the renai game article, it was about, big surprise here, renai games. Now, it links to the dating sim article, which... describes renai games. Omgwtflolz 04:54, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Maybe from your perspective the dating sim article describes ren'ai games, but IMHO it describes dating sims. I fixed all of the references to "ren'ai game" because it is a confusing term in another language for which a perfectly good English equivalent exists. Ashibaka (tock) 05:06, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Except that it isn't a very good equivalent, as has been stated countless times before. That's the whole point. Omgwtflolz 05:19, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I am sure that it is so terrible that it has confused countless thousands of people, whereas simply using "ren'ai game" gets the idea across simply and effectively because everyone knows what "ren'ai" means.
The optimal solution would be "romance game", but of course nobody actually uses that term because fanboys seem to like Japanese words better than English. Ashibaka (tock) 05:22, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, I'm getting exasperated. I'll go take a few days to cool off-- if you want to bring this to the wider Wikipedia community feel free to just forward them to this talk page. Ashibaka (tock) 05:24, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

I dislike the term "renai game" myself (and tend to stick to "ADV"), but it's still better than "dating sim", which sort of gets the point across, but also helps to breed misconceptions.

You go to the Megatokyo forums. I won't have you say that you haven't seen people discussing those horrendous Flash games on Newgrounds in the Dating Sim forum. Just how similar are those dating sims to renai games? I'm not saying that the term "renai game" should be used- I'm just saying that "dating sim" SHOULDN'T. Omgwtflolz 07:20, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Omgwtflolz, I can see your point. I really can. My preferences are the same as yours: you can see some of my arguments with Ashibaka, Shibboleth and others on this and other talk pages, where I argue the same point as you. But, much though I hate to say it, for a general audience, they're right. "Dating sim" is inaccurate, but it's what most people call these games. Many of my friends are otaku well versed in Japanese culture and with speech peppered with imported Japanese words, and they still call ren'ai games dating sims. My girlfriend doesn't, but that's because the only contact she's had with them is via me. In general, it's *only* people who are well versed in the Japanese game situation (like the people you mention on the Megatokyo forums) who use the phrase "ren'ai game". And Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not a forum for changing terms in use to ones that are somehow "more correct". We have to accept that in general English usage, "dating sim" *means* what we know as "ren'ai game"s. The term has changed meaning away from literally a "simulation of dating". The subculture that's well versed in the details may view that as incorrect, but it's more comprehensible to the general audience, which is Wikipedia's audience. --AlexChurchill 10:08, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps, but the problem is that the word's usage came about from a bunch of misconceptions, and helps to spread those misconceptions.

Isn't Wikipedia meant to be a source of information? If so, the correct term should be used, regardless of what language it's in. Or should we spread misinformation simply because it's more convenient? The dating sim article could be used to explain how the word is inaccurate, and could link to the renai game article. That wouldn't affect the general audience's access to the information, would it?

Also, from what I've seen, very few English-speaking people who play these games (Japanese ones, at least, and not crappy English yaruge) use the term "dating sim". http://forums.megatokyo.com/index.php?showtopic=1707099 Omgwtflolz 03:50, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

But articles are not given their titles by the fandom: for example, dōjinshi, not doujinshi (as I discussed with DopefishJustin). "Ren'ai" is not an English word, and an English term already exists which is in common use outside of the fandom. Furthermore, terms don't have to conform to their literal meanings. For example, I cited otaku in that Megatokyo thread as an example of a word which has been far removed from its original meaning, and that moderator backed me up. As I suggested before, if we are really concerned about following a literal definition we might title the article "romance game". Ashibaka (tock) 00:12, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Like I said, I'm just saying that "dating sims" shouldn't be used. "Romance game" would be fine, I guess, if you really have to have it. But I personally think that adding good Etymology and Common Usage sections to both articles would've solved the problem right from the beginning. :/ Omgwtflolz 06:43, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Over the weekend I discovered the belief underneath my rationale for abhorring ren'ai: it's George Orwell's Politics and the English Language, which I read in freshman year of high school and which has since burrowed deep into my soul. I still can't find any rational way of diagreeing with his rules, but as far as I know Orwell is not style policy on Wikipedia :) So let's say there's no decision, for now, and I won't be messing with articles any further. However, for my own sanity I do ask that you not redirect Dating sim to Ren'ai game as I see this a reversal of the terms people actually use.
When more contributors stop by, or if someone has the audacity to bring this up on Haeleth's gemot (although such a thing would disturb the peace), I will be happy to resume discussion then. Ashibaka tock 01:52, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Ugh, I totally forgot about this. Anyway, judging from the thread you started on the Megatokyo forums, most of the people who actually play these games refer to them as "renai games", or, at least, not "dating sims". And as I pointed out on Haeleth's board, that "otaku" argument of your's isn't very good. Dictionaries, eh? Omgwtflolz 18:59, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Maybe you should take it up with the companies like Peach Princess that license dating sims (as they call them) into the United States. Ashibaka tock 03:38, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

They're not the ones messing with the articles here. Omgwtflolz 20:48, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, it's all just one big conspiracy. Ashibaka tock 23:09, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

In the end, it comes down to this- Renai adventure games are not about dating, and are not simulation games. If you don't have anything to say about that, I'll be reverting the articles. Again.Omgwtflolz 10:20, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

"Ren'ai" is not an English word, and it would not occur to any normal person to use this word to describe a romance game. The phrase, "romance game" is fine. Ashibaka tock 16:08, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Except that nobody uses that term. People who play the games use "renai game". And now, a summary. The games aren't about dating . The games are not simulation games. The people who play them call them "renai games". There really isn't anything left to discuss. Your argument here has pretty much been "it's not English and since 'dating sim' is an excellent equivalent we should be using that". As has been pointed out countless times, both here as well as elsewhere, it's not. If you've got nothing of substance to add, I'll be reverting the articles. Omgwtflolz 19:11, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

I am a person who plays the games. I call them dating sims. I despise the name "ren'ai game". "Romance game" is a fine equivalent. Ashibaka tock 21:50, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

http://forums.megatokyo.com/index.php?showtopic=1707099
Since you don't seem to have anything of substance to add, I'm reverting the articles. Omgwtflolz 08:08, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Hey, you can't just do that. There was a previous decision here right above you on this page; you need to at least bring in a third opinion and create something like a reasonable discussion. Also, you are linking to a topic on the Megatokyo forums where the mods specifically decided to ban me rather than debate my points. Ashibaka tock 21:17, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to correct the above comment, which I wrote in a hurry because I needed to catch a train.

  1. Yes, a mod decided to respond to the "otaku" thing, after the topic was locked and I was banned. I responded to her at length in a new topic and it got locked for continuing a deleted topic.
  2. This is irrelevant anyway. I can see full well that neither of us is going to waver from either of our views. But I'd like to remind you that Wikipedia is written from a NPOV, not a "fans' point of view", and no matter how better a term "ren'ai game" is, "dating sim" is used outside the fandom. C.f. Arabic numerals.
  3. That being said, if you really despise "dating sim" so much we can create Romance game as a compromise and merge in both articles.

Ashibaka tock 22:19, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Third opinion? AlexChurchill. NPOV? If you were truly interested in writing articles free of bias, you'd be using the genre name that the makers of the games use, and not what the publishers of the games in a single country use.
http://key.visualarts.gr.jp/product/index.htm
恋愛アドベンチャー
http://www.age-soft.jp/Product/017/overview.htm
多重恋愛ＡＶＧ
http://www.aquaplus.co.jp/th2/html/products.html
恋愛ＡＤＶ
http://circus.nandemo.gr.jp/product/dc/pc/index.html
こそばゆい学園恋愛アドベンチャー
Enough said. Omgwtflolz 13:59, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Once again, since you seem to have nothing to say, I'm reverting the articles. Omgwtflolz 06:07, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

And I'd appreciate it if you didn't wait for a few weeks and then just revert them again, because, to be honest, that's extremely annoying. If you have any valid points, bring them up first. Omgwtflolz 06:04, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Look, I'm just maintaining AlexChurchill's opinion. If you can find other people to support your POV, fine. If you have a compromise, fine. And I've explained to you multiple times that the fact that we are speaking English and not Japanese is part of the problem here. Ashibaka tock 05:14, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] From WP:3o

Google seems to indicate that "dating sim" is more common than "re'nai" in this context. That, and Wikipedia's policy to use English in the English encyclopedia, seem to point to using the term "dating sim". Can anyone provide sources which indicate otherwise? Fagstein 21:06, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What's a subgenre of what, precious?

Ren'ai games are any "love game", so bishoujo games are a subgenre of ren'ai. I won't make this change yet because I'm simply asserting my opinion and maybe the person who wrote that believes differently.

Here's my reasoning:

  • Sexual content level of anime games can be eroge or "clean".
  • Romance level of anime games can be renai, "light" (little romance), "kichiku" (rape), or no romance.
  • Gender focus of anime games can be a girl game or a BL game.
  • Interactivity of anime games can be an erotic game of any genre, a dating sim (conveniently folded into "ren'ai" by some hasty merge), a visual novel, or a kinetic novel.

Also, the entire overlap of visual novels and H games are ren'ai, but I'm not sure how to portray this on our new linear template without confusing people. Ashibaka (tock) 03:53, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

Well, at least you already acknowledge this is a mess :) I really don't think "bishoujo games" are a subgenre of "ren'ai games", in the way the terms are generally used. In my experience, amongst those native-English-speakers who're reasonably well educated about the different fuzzy groups, "bishoujo game" tends to get used as the overarching category for everything from harsh kichiku rape games to BL games with no female characters. Ren'ai games are the subset of those where romance is the primary focus (as opposed to a game like "Battle Raper", which is a bishoujo game but not a ren'ai game). Likewise, I'm sure that not all H games that are visual novels are primarily romantic: much though I'd like to pretend that the dark sadistic type don't exist!
I don't think we should be trying to make new definitions of these terms (even if the new definitions would make more sense), but just to capture the terms as they're used, and make sense out of them. But people very often use the terms in a confused way, and different groups use them in different ways, which means it's hard to tell what are the standard terms to use. --AlexChurchill 09:10, September 12, 2005 (UTC)
Ah, you're right, I totally forgot about Saya no Uta and stuff. Anyway, I guess we can leave the five different pages unchanged for now, and just remove the references to "subgenres" on all pages (the H game page listed bishoujo as a subgenre, the bishoujo page listed ren'ai as a subgenre, the ren'ai page listed visual novels as a subgenre, and the visual novel page listed H games as a subgenre...) But just as a note, this layout was confusing enough that I wrote up a history of H games where a more detailed history already existed at the Bishoujo page. Ashibaka (tock) 17:14, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
Hopefully your template at the top should at least help with that. If you can see ways to clarity it, please do (or at least suggest them). I am inclined to edit Template:Anime games so that it doesn't suggest that bishojo games (the primary article on en at the moment) are subset of some other category, probably put it at the top of the list under Anime games. --AlexChurchill 16:26, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
I edited the template so it groups things nearly correctly (I'm not sure how to categorize H games, which is just a translation of eroge which is the prevailing Japanese word for renai games). Ashibaka (tock) 23:00, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Moved from Talk:Renai game

I note that the page Visual novel currently redirects here. It seems to me that the concepts of "visual novel" and "ren'ai game" are sufficiently separate that they could productively have separate pages... or at least a proper definition of "visual novel" on this page. I'm still new at this - is there a guideline somewhere on whether a page should be split off to its own article or added as a subsection of an existing one? --AlexChurchill 08:46, Jul 1, 2004 (UTC)

The English terminology over bishojo games is something of a nightmare. There are 2 problems here. One, Joe American the average English speaker has never played any of these games and has only heard of them,. So for Joe, "dating sim", "hentai game", "visual novel", "ren'ai game" are all different words for the exact same thing. Then, you have Bob Otaku who makes fine distinctions between them. To make matters worse, Bob speaks Japanese and he rarely gets to meet any other English speaker who plays these games, so he will make up his own terminology by loosely translating the Japanese terms (which are themselves rather messy). The result of all this is that everybody has their own unique idea of what terms mean what, and confusion ensues.
In the case of "visual novel" specifically, I have seen the term used to mean either:
  • Exact synonym for "ren'ai game"
  • Ren'ai game which is somehow more "novel-like" (e.g. more first-person narration than usual)
  • Ren'ai game with text on the entire screen instead of in a text box on the bottom
  • One of the 4 games in the Leaf Visual Novel Series
Since you haven't explained, I'm not even sure what you mean by "visual novel", AlexChurchill: I wouldn't be surprised to hear you hold yet another alternative meaning!
So, with all this confusion, I think we shouldn't use English terms such as "dating sim" or "visual novel" as separate article titles on Wikipedia. First, it would piss off Joe American who just wants to read about that Kanon game he's heard about, who doesn't know or care whether it strictly qualifies as a "visual novel" or "dating sim" or otherwise, and doesn't want to follow a bunch of different links before he finds the proper subgenre. Two, it would piss off Bob Otaku, who would likely consider the very article title to be POV. The only way to avoid this mess is to use unambiguous Japanese (not English or Engrish) terms as our article titles. Currently we have three main articles: bishojo game, ren'ai game, and H game, which I think are the 3 major subgenres. I don't think we should fork off into more subarticles over terminology nitpicks.
That said, if you want to add more explanation of terminology as you see it, feel free to modify the articles. I tried to centralize all terminology discussion over at bishojo game, that's why I didn't define "visual novel" here at ren'ai game. The truth is that the whole debate doesn't matter that much, anyway: the most important thing is to understand that there is no "one true meaning" for terms like "visual novel". --Shibboleth 17:10, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Heh. Well, that's demonstrated the potential for confusion at least! I was thinking of the genre of games which ranges rather wider than just those with renai elements - so it overlaps heavily with "Renai game", but neither is a subset of the other. (Where characters and locations appear onscreen, text is read and clicked through, and occasionally decisions are made in Choose Your Own Adventure style which may affect the plot. Similar to the most story-driven Interactive fiction but with static visuals, really.)
I don't think I really know enough about the distinction to write the page myself, since pretty much all the visual novels I've played are ren'ai games (but not vice versa). I do see the problem, though. I guess providing a paragraph in this article would be fine, except there's the problem you mention of lack of clear consensus... Maybe there's not much that can be done for the moment. --AlexChurchill 09:32, Jul 14, 2004 (UTC)
Okay, you mean games like Radical Dreamers or Gyakuten Saiban would also qualify as "visual novels" by your definition. Yes, that's another reasonable interpretation. Anyway, as you can see it's a mess; probably the best we can do is add a note emphasizing the lack of consensus. --Shibboleth 20:53, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Indeed. I expanded a couple of bits of Bishojo game, because that's where the terminology discussion already is, including a definition of "Visual novel". Does that look okay? If so, the only other question I have is whether the redirect at Visual novel would be better pointed at "Bishojo game" (where the definition is), or at "Renai game" (much closer in concept). Can the redirect point straight to the "Terminology & genres" subheading? --AlexChurchill 15:19, Jul 15, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Stub template

I've noticed that there are a number of stub articles for anime games. They generally get tagged with Template:Simulation-cvg-stub, but lumping them in with flight sims or Sim City has never felt quite right to me. It seems to me that the people familiar with anime games and able to fill out articles about them would not necessarily overlap much with those who know about general simulation games. Thus, I propose we create Template:Anime-game-stub, replacing the relevant stubs with that. Then it would be rather easier to decide to, say, fill out one anime game stub per week. It would like some small representative image, perhaps the face of Shiori from Tokimeki Memorial. Thoughts? --AlexChurchill 10:13, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Definition of "anime game"

Just so I'm clear on this... an "anime game" is not necessarily a game licensed from an anime (such as the DBZ, Naruto, etc. games) but any Japanese game with a Japanese illustration style of art? The other sub-genres, such as dating sims, eroge, bishojo, all fall under "anime game"? That doesn't really make sense to me... it seems these all fall under a general umbrella of "Japanese computer and video games". The term as it's being used now could apply to virtually every video game released from China and Korea as well. I'd like to get a handle on the scope of this article. --SevereTireDamage 08:33, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I believe this is so. The article tends to contradict itself in this that the infobox on the top-right, reflects the idea that anime games are games released entirely around story/comic book style illustration adventure games. Whereas the images and the RPG/Fighting genre aren't really reflected in this infobox either. The infobox should be expanded to include the more mainstream more interactivve oriented fighting/RPG/shooter. I think that what defines an anime game at the moment, seems to be, from my understanding of this article and it's current content, any game that is focused around japanese import/japanese-styled art of manga/anime and the licensed games of stories of the comics(manga), TV and movie series or originals that feature the japanese import/styled art.
It's a very, very broad category and I think that this article really needs expansion should it fully cover this broad genre of games. Considering the influence that Japanese art has had on modern games.--Mofomojo 19:27, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
That's the reason I nominated this article for gaming collab of the week. Gonna add more stuff when I have the time Danorux 21:35, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

This article is meant to cover eroge, visual novels, and the large overlap between them. I guess RPGs fit as well. Ashibaka tock 22:27, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Format vs Genre - the template box issue

AnimePlay and Dojin soft (as a collective) are really technically publishers or brands, they aren't really "formats". Dating Sims is a format, not a genre (assuming RPG, Shooter etc are "Format"). All games of the dating sims format are in the genre of Renai games, due to the nature of "date". That's my point of view, and I'm wondering if it makes sense to other people reading this. -Afker 18:58, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Listing both "dating sim" and "renai game" is a compromise between me and omgwtfbbq. Ideally, renai game should just be a redirect Ashibaka tock 19:17, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
I don't understand. The relationship between dating sim and renai game should be similar to the relationship between "First Person Shooter" and "games where you kill stuff". You don't have to kill things via shooting. In fact, there are a LOT of games in which you kill stuff, but without the game being a FPS (pick just about any RPG game and you'll be killing stuff in it). -Afker 19:23, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
In reality they describe the exact same kind of game, with disregard for whether they involve dating or not (similar to how the term "adventure game" also describes boring kinds of interactive fiction). Ashibaka tock 21:08, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Hmm, I would've expected renai games to overlap with "strict" visual novels where all you do is click to read story and graphics (no choices involved), whereas dating sim wouldn't include it. Does your definition of renai/dating overlap with the "strict" type of visual novels or not? I can't really tell from what you wrote above. Anyways, part of my original issue remains: "AnimePlay" and "Dojin soft" are a different type of categorization compared to "Visual novel". -Afker 22:05, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
That point is correct, you can fix it. Visual novels are a medium of expression, whereas romance is a genre of fiction. Ashibaka tock 23:42, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I just went through the old discussion you had with Omg-something (didn't realize it's right here up top). So now I have a better understanding, I agree with your position (I don't touch the translated-by-English-publisher games, so I didn't know they just slap "dating sims" on just about every title). I think right now the Dating sim article needs an additional section for the NON-technical definition, explaining the more common "incorrect" usage by the publishers in the US. The first sentence of that article does not read like a definition of the generalized usage, but more like an oversimplification of the technical definition. I'll ponder on how to reword that article. -Afker 08:07, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

blah, nevermind, the sentence is there, at the end of the "technical definition" section, which is probably why I missed it. I'll think about if there's any way to mvoe that sentence to a more prominent location. -Afker 08:27, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The butchering of the article

An anime game is not a game that looks like an anime. The term is never used in Japan this way and it's only used in this way incorrectly outside of Japan. Calling Final Fantasy an anime game is as much of a mistake as calling a manga an "anime comic". Anime is not an art style, it is a just a cartoon from Japan.

Just look at the link on the page. That's how the term is used.

Per discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Anime and manga, 'anime game' is to only cover games based off of anime. For visual novels and dating sims, the overbranching genre is .

Of course now the problem is that there's really not much to talk about, and I wonder if we really need the article at all.--SeizureDog 04:26, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Wow, took me a few seconds to realize what was going on. But I'm happy with the long-needed cut you made. Now to refill the article with correct info... Danorux 06:49, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Okay, SeizureDog, maybe WP:ANIME says an "anime game" is only a game with an anime behind it. Then here's something for you to chew on: What term would you give to describe the overlapping elements between visual novels, dating sims, and bishoujo games? Ashibaka (tock) 19:01, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

First of all, a bishoujo game is not a genre, it is simply a game with pretty girls in it. You can't have just a 'bishoujo game'. You may have a 'bishoujo puzzle' or 'bishoujo dating sim', but not just a 'bishoujo'. And as I said before, the overlapping genre is ren'ai game. All dating sims and most visual novels are of this genre. The naming problem gave us quite a bit of trouble, but anime game is certainly wrong. Chew on this yourself: how can a visual novel be considered an 'animation game' ('anime' being simply short for 'animation') when it consists almost entirely of a series of still images?--SeizureDog 05:16, 13 January 2007 (UTC)


Generalizing bishoujo games as anime games is as wrong as calling Ultima 6 or Prince of Persia 2 or X Wing vs Tie Fighter "cartoon games" or "comic games". -Afker 09:26, 20 March 2007 (UTC)