Talk:Animal welfare in Nazi Germany

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A fact from Animal welfare in Nazi Germany appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know? column on 14 March 2008.
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Do you have any other sources for this claim? Jammy Simpson | Talk | 16:39, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, you can see there are source in the article. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 16:40, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
For the record, you added those after my request, but thank you. Jammy Simpson | Talk | 17:42, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
This article has serious issues with respect to reliable sources and WP:NPOV. Please explain how [1] , cited as a reference for many of the claims, is a reliable source. Edison (talk) 23:10, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
Why Kaltio is not RS? It is used as source in the article Nazi Germany also. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 00:00, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
I don't find a problem with Kaltio's reliability in this aspect. If you feel there is a problem with a particular citation, please point it out. Herunar (talk) 15:29, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Influence after WW2

This whole paragraph is hogwash. Principally, the whole bundle of laws for animal and nature protection was never abolished after WW2, at least in west Germany. The three laws (Reichsnaturschutzgesetz, Tierschutzgesetz, Reichsjagdgesetz) were taken over by the federal republic with only minor changes, like making it easier to claim compensation for environmental measures. Same goes for the cruelty to animals paragraph in the criminal code (StGB). In fact, laws made between 1933 and 45 were generally only changed as far as they contained nazi ideology. The fact that the Wolf is extinct in Germany is because the areas were wolves live were no longer german territory. In the present day borders of Germany, the Wolf has been extinct at least 150 years, even though occasional packs move in from Poland in cold winters and some might have taken up permanent residence recently.JCRitter (talk) 16:30, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Not the whole paragraph. Only the following:
“ After the defeat of Nazi Germany in World War II, most of the animal protection laws enacted by the Nazis were dissolved in Germany. The wolf became extinct and nature preservation areas were turned into agricultural lands. Until the beginning of the 1970s, everything related to nature preservation were wiped out in Germany. ”

Per the above argument, the following sentences can be removed:

  • "After the defeat of Nazi Germany in World War II, most of the animal protection laws enacted by the Nazis were dissolved in Germany"
  • "The wolf became extinct"
  • "Until the beginning of the 1970s, everything related to nature preservation were wiped out in Germany"

I am removing these sentences per above argument. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 16:41, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Error in final section?

"In the United Kingdom, few neo-Nazi groups who read Nazi Germany's effort for protection of animal rights, tried to join the animal liberation movement.[3]"

Should this actually say "a few" rather than "few" - the addition of "a" more-or-less reverses the sense of the sentence! 87.113.49.73 (talk) 18:27, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

OK. Done. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 18:30, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Photo Removed?

What was the purpose of removing the photo of Adolf Hitler with his dog? The comment associated with that edit suggests to me that the editor felt that this was may have been painting Hitler in too positive a light, but is it not also true that Hitler was indeed an animal lover and this should not be concealed? The photo was appropriate and illustrative of this and seemed like an excellent companion to the article. Just my opinion, it made the article better and was a service by breaking the assumption that Hitler or Nazis were unmitigated evil (not to say they were acceptable or defensible, only that they were human). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.255.103.63 (talk) 01:19, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

I am against the removal of the photo. The photo of Adolf Hitler with his dog Blondi is appropriate in the article. Hitler loved his pet Blondi too much and even when he spent days in the Bunker before committing suicide, he took Blondi for a walk outside his bunker. The photo is appropriate to the subject. I will add it back. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 07:56, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
On a second thought, the image has copyright problems. And the image shows Hitler with his dog, but it is not directly associated with animal rights. When the image was included, there was no good image in the article, so at that time the image was appropriate. But now there is another image showing lab animals saluting Göring for his order to ban vivisection. I think that one image is enough to illustrate the subject. Especially the Blondi image has copyright problems. So I have removed the image for the copyright issue. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 19:05, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Simplification and back to the roots

I was very surprised to find such a quite ite detailed article / own lemma about the topic of Nazi animal rights / welfare here. I had just recently introduced these points into aome articles in the german wikipedia. PLease allow me to update some elemts of the english lemma based on a dedicated study about the Reichstierschutzgesetz and its role in Nazi campaigns and propaganda. --Polentario (talk) 00:44, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

You have added several unsourced information in the article. The section "New Deal Corollar" has heavy unsourced information.
“ The legal frameworks and concepts of the Reichstierschutzgesetz and further conservationist laws have been developed close cooperation with a broad involvement of people, a genuine conservationist movement and organisation and were a valid success which is in place still today. Besides Law making, serious research funds were earmarked in geography, ecology, landscape protection and Soil research - delivering a serious base of still valuable research under a Blut und Boden mythical propaganda overlay. Basically they are still valid and have been kept (in the west) with only minor updates in the 70ties and have just been copied in eastern Germany around 1954.

Before the war some remote parallels and interaction between the various 'New Deals' on both sides of the atlantic can be drawn. As well influential American industrialist and antisemite Henry Ford closely cooperated with Hitler.

 ”

Only the above paragraph was sourced. Foloowing was unsourced addition.

“ Besides German conservationist and landscape protection schemes for major infrastructure projects involved as the autobahns found international acknowledgement and had an impact on the Federal Highway system in the US. On the other hand, not only the US federal park scheme was copied and applied to German circumstances.

Along with Wolfgang Schivelbusch sensitive comparision of what he calls 'Three New Deals' it has to be said against a reductio ad hitlerum that the major difference is not to be found in the -often similar- appraisal of new technical schemes and developements but in democracy and dictatorship. While Hitler and Mussolini used Radio adresses, airplanes, IBM statistical tools and Ford and Opel lorries to immerse themselves into the masses and to motivate and shout them into projects that finally lead them into war and genocide, Franklin Roosevelts Fireplace chats were chats - and a genial way to interact and motivate with individuals in a to be reformed democratic society. The way western Germany successfully dealt with this heritage was to pragmatically adapt to the American way in that respect without doing away with the technical structures and the gained knowledge.

 ”

You changed the section "Difference from animal liberation movement" and added unsourced information. Please follow WP:V. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 08:10, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Besides many of your language is not WP:NPOV. Like this:"The Nazis used this popular concern to push their own especially anti jewish agenda. The pathetic and it has to be said honest attempt to improve animal welfare was not at all in contradiction to cruelties to human beings." Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 08:14, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Also you have added German quote in the article mainspace

“ Das nationalsozialistische Reichstierschutzgesetz muss als ein historischer Grenzfall angesehen werde: Während es vom Standpunkt des Tierschutzes aus betrachtet, einen Fortschritt für die damalige Zeit darstellte, so ist der Tierschutzgedanke, der dem Gesetz zugrunde liegt, unabdingbarer Teil der nationalsozialistischen Weltanschauung. Der Übergang von Tier- zu Menschenversuchen im Dritten Reich ist also keine direkte Konsequenz des Reichstierschutzgesetzes, sondern vielmehr eine Folge einer Ideologie, die ihre Menschenverachtung auch durch eine Aufwertung von Tieren legitimierte. ”

The translation is needed in the article mainspace, in English wikipedia, you have to write in English. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 08:16, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I assume we have a different style in providing source. While you prefer en detail sourcing, resulting in barbed wire footmarking (which is OK, but not always done or needed), I tend more to give a generic abstract about the sources and to tell freely. My changes are based, as I have pointed out when i started editing, Schivelbusch and Daniel Jütte. Further points and detiled issues have been pointed out in text.

The quotation you mentioned quotation is the abstract of my most valuable source. As there is no existing valided translation, I give the original text and in brackets my personal translation. [2] Daniel Jütte, Tierschutz und Nationalsozialismus, Die Entstehung und die Auswirkungen des nationalsozialistischen Reichstierschutzgesetzes von 1933 (Animal Protection and Nationalsocialism, Rise and effect of the national socialist Animal Protection Law of 1933)IDB Münster • Ber. Inst. Didaktik Biologie Suppl.2 (2002) --Polentario (talk) 08:31, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

the two quotations of Himmler and of Jütte give the basic outline. The differences to animal liberation movement are given by comparision of Himmler and the Furoyn murderer, as well about the Euthanasia program and PETAs.

Daniel Jütte has described en detail the continuity and the differences - the abstract gives the generalkonzept, the rest is details along tha basic outline. --Polentario (talk) 08:31, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

OK. I will readd the quote. But the rest of the addition were haphazard and has source problems. But I will readd the quote. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 08:40, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
"The differences to animal liberation movement are given by comparision of Himmler and the Furoyn murderer" no this is not. This is what the "Controversy" is for. The previous addition had several WP:SYN. I have changed it. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 08:42, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
Your addition "The book of German Paläoconservatives as Günter Rohrmoser about an an alleged crisis of natural science and ethical questions of animal husbandry is often cited by as well green or leftist animal activists" was unsourced. You used the author's book itself as a source, but that did not clarify that the particular book "is often cited by as well green or leftist animal activists". Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 08:44, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

OK- thats personal resaerch - the Rohrmoser bullshit is to be found on the german wikipedia as a seríuos link, Rohrmoser is a sort of German Neocon with extrem righht allegations

Your renaming of the section to "Parallels and Difference from animal liberation movement" has several problems. It do not specify the Nazi view on animal protection, but indiscriminate collection of several facts. It need to mention how Nazi attempt on animal protection was different from modern animal liberation movement. I have made the relevant changes. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 08:22, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

2 important Points about this:

  • I assume you ahve a american legal training. At least u quote like a case by case anglo legal guy, which results in barbed wire footnoting. German law is quite different in the aspect that the written legal rulings give a basic abstract setup and the rest is deduced and continually developed by the courts. I have taken a similar approach.
  • the last paragraph si the most important one. German animal protection law is very close to what kaplan and singer urge for - to make animals more similar to human beings. As pointed out several times, the legal framweork and the mentioned underlying philosphy of the 3rd reich animal protection law are are still valid and in use in Germany. TO PROTECT ANIMALS and btw to provede the exemptions (which had been foreseen, Germany tried and found allies in the muslim world) to allow koscher / halal meat produced by german jews and muslims. Germany is NOT longer the nazi empire. But in so far, there are not only differences between nowadays animal protection movement philosophy and the nazi approach. THERE ARE PARALLELS. However ist doesnt make impossible to build up a democracy with such a law.

An to explain the parallels and to make those distinctions, I foudn the shivelbusch comparision very valuable - therefore the corollar. And if you should happen to read the point about the (english source) about the vegan Jihadist - there is a parallelity of his approach to value animals more than human beings which is again in line with the Nazi thinking pointed out very clealry by Jütte. Graaf is not Himmler and Ingrid Kirk is not a Euthansia nazi. But similarity in the abstract approach are visible and can be pointed out.

Final Hint: I assume in reality you have not used original reasearch at all but those cato guys have been inspired by Jütte and his sources. Jütte was not even a student when he worte the 100 page essay for a competition of the German President. He won the first prize and the essay has been downsized to articles in Sueddeutsche Zeitung and FAZ, NYT class newspapers in this country. As said I see this source as an valuable improvement of your lemma, not an attack. But its up to wikipedia to decide. --Polentario (talk) 09:31, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Anyhow "Van der Graaf was a freak and trouble maker attempting to stop Pim Fortuyn, an outspoken hedonist and openly gay politician from mocking popular believes and religios puritans and enjoying luxury (including mink furs) and succeeding in a free and open democratic society. Himmler committed suicide bevore he could have been brought to justice and most probably to the gallows. Van der Graaf was committed to only twelve years in jail - family members of Pim Fortuyn wearing fur coats during the legal proceedings to show their remembrance, committment and disgust" this is isolated case. Has nothing to do in a comparison with animal liberation movement. The rest of the information which are relevant is present in the "Controversy" section. The main point here is that Nazi view on animal protection had a concept of hierarchy and rejection of humanity, while animal liberation movement is based on the concept of equal rights for animals and human. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 09:37, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

1. Animal rights movement has disdain for humaity comepared to animals. Peter Singer and Kaplan do not respect disabled people compared to a Chimpanzee 2. Furtuyn is a single case. OK, murder might be more popular in the US and besides Theo van Gogh it was the first case of political murder in non occupied holland for centuries. It was a show case - and it was about animal rights versus freedom of fur, besides muslim hypocrisy. Sources have been given. --Polentario (talk) 09:47, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Can you please tell something more about this source [3]? Who is Daniel Jütte? His designation? Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 09:57, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

OK Daniel Jütte is a German Jew and historian. He was born 1984 in Israel and went 1989 to Germany. A a pupil in Stuttgar, he researched and wrote an 100 page essay for the Bundespräsidents historical competition. It won a 2001 a first prize. THe pdf I have quoted is a shortened version - after the prize Jütte got several professional tutors - based on an article in [[[FAZ]] which was published at the WWU Münster University department Didaktik der Biologie papers. Jütte has presented the results e.g. in Alte Synagoge. He started historical studies with the highest ranking scholarschip in germany, Studienstiftung des Deutschen Volkes and 2004 he was doing foreign studies about musical history in with a scholaarschip of Deutsches Studienzentrum in Venice. The FAZ quoted the éssay Anima Protection and National Socialism - a fatal connection, Sueddeutsche had done a longer essay within their historical features. Jütte points are en detail quoted in a left wing online newspaper http://www.trend.infopartisan.net/trd0407/t150407.html.

I saw a lot of bullshit questions in this discussion entry, as "I never heard of this and it cannot be". You personally have received a Tireless barnstar, for providing fringe topics. This is not a fringe topic, including the very high importance of the Hitler and Blondi homestories within NS propaganda, Himmlers animal protection quote - which u have erased as well for whatever reasons. My personal experience with english speaking scholars is a bllody arrogant attiditue, what has not been published in english doesnt exist. Does it apply to Wikipedia as well? I mean the topic of research and the legal heritage was and is German. Accept and Use sources from this country. What u quote is mostly based on translations, not on original reasearch.

--Polentario (talk) 19:24, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
We can't use a student as a source, unless he was published somewhere extremely reliable, but even then it would be difficult. We can use the sources he used, of course, if they are reliable. SlimVirgin talk|edits 20:24, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
  • This is not a students work any longer. The thesis has been published in scientific papers and VERY serious newspaper articles. Thats a reliable source. If necessary look up Jüttes mentor, Eberhard Wolff, a lecturer with Robert BoschFoundation in scientifical history
  • The underlying essay got a high ranking prize, and and it made its way into the scientific pages of FAZ and Sueddeutsche. Compare an 18year old that gets half a page of the Guardian and a big handshake by a member of the royal family for a scientific paper. Most of the scholars never got that far during their life. The paper has been published in Berichte des Institutes für Didaktik der Biologie, thats "teaching biology". http://www.uni-kassel.de/fb19/biologiedidaktik/IDB/IDB5/Inhalt_IDB5.htm. Its not Science but a reasonable and reliable source.

--Polentario (talk) 21:00, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I still don't think we can use him because he is a student, and anyway, there's no need to use him. We can use whichever sources he used for any particular point. What material do you want his paper to be a source for? SlimVirgin talk|edits 21:07, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Concerns

I have some concerns about the main source being used here. First, I have never heard of Hitler supporting animal rights, as opposed to protection/welfare, so we would need to see a good, specialist source for this claim. Secondly, the law was called animal protection, not animal rights.

Do we have a mainstream source that shows the term "animal rights" was ever used (or implied)? SlimVirgin talk|edits 11:25, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

If you have never heard about this - its probably due to the fact that youre not very close to Germany. Animal protection was a focal point of Hitlers propaganda and politics. An infamous proof is to be found in the Posen speech of heinrich Himmler. I have given variuos German sources on that. --Polentario (talk) 18:51, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I know he was interested in animal welfare/protection. But I have never heard of him supporting animal rights, which is a different thing entirely. SlimVirgin talk|edits 19:09, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
I have changed the title to "Animal welfare in Nazi Germany". It is appropriate title. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 12:18, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
Also I have made the relevant changes. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 12:44, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
Thank you, that's better.
I have a query about this sentence: "The Nazi view on animal protection rejected anthropocentric perspective — animals were not to be protected for human interests, but for themselves."
If this is true, it is quite significant, but I have never heard it before. Can you say what your source (Boria Sax) says exactly? Also, I was wondering about the Finnish website that seems to be used a lot as a source. Do you know what kind of website it is? SlimVirgin talk|edits 12:57, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Below is the quote from Boria Sax:

The Nazi strictures on animal protection were very explicit in their rejection of anthropocentric perspective -- animals were not to be protected for the sake of human interests but for themselves.

Animals in the Third Reich: Pets, Scapegoats, and the Holocaust by Boria Sax Page 42. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 15:57, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Does he say why he believes this? SlimVirgin talk|edits 15:59, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
He did not explain it. The full paragraph is:

The Nazi strictures on animal protection were very explicit in their rejection of anthropocentric perspective -- animals were not to be protected for the sake of human interests but for themselves (i.e. Giese and Kahler, p. 13). An intensified hierarchy, however, replaced humanism as an organized principle.

  • Boria Sax referenced from other's work. So I think if the fact is mentioned, it should be mentioned as "According to Boria Sax...". Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 16:11, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
Yes, though it's so significant that it would be good to know why he is saying it. My understanding is that German legislation did not go any further than animal protection legislation in, say, the UK. It's also not true that the Germans banned vivisection. They simply placed restrictions on it to reduce pain and unnecessary experiments, which were already in place elsewhere.
Also, the AR myths site can't be used as a source. It's just someone's personal website. I think the Finnish source is also not good. The article seems to have been written by a Finnish woman with an MA in history. No indication that she's a specialist.
By all means use these websites in order to find further sources, but they can't be used directly in the article. Having said that, thank you for writing this. It's very interesting, and it makes a change to see these things being written about intelligently. SlimVirgin talk|edits 17:02, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Some points I miss and have concerns and some points I'like to introduce or improve

  • THe Article entry is neither a real definition nor a good read. It consists of a staggering row of various diffenretn theses. I suggest instead to introduce Animal welfare as a part of a broad nazi strategy which included conservation, national parks, ecology, healthy / organic food. soil science and acriculture and nature friendly infra planning (Wolfgang Schivelbusch, three new Deals thesis) based on an interaction with a broad popular movement which had been neglegted (especially in case of Animal Welfare) for a long time. Important founding of Jütte. See previous versions of the article
  • I dont accept at all a statement that says " We have to look for differences, not for parallesl"
    • Paralles between Nazi Movement and 1968 ecology and peace Movement are given in detail by Götz Aly in his book Unser Kampf (published two weeks ago in germany). Think this would be an excelent addition for the intro. His previous study about 'Hitlers Welfare State' rsp. the feel-good -factor of the Nazi state is already mentioned on the english wikipedia and available in english and french. English article about the latter on http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,347726,00.html
    • I had mentioned and compared the IMHO exemplary Killing of famous fur lover Pim Fortuyn by a Jihad Veganist, See previous versions of the article
    • Committing crimes against human beings while loving animals or even in the sake of animal welfare - Jütte has thoroghly explained how this was possible within the Nazi regime and the legal framework. See previous versions of the article
    • The underlying philosphy of the Recihstierschutzgesetz is to give animals their own rights and to move them closer to their level - this is an important parallel to the animal rights movement. I lack an entry that compares this to Singer and Kaplan.
    • The Animal Welfare strategy was implemented 1933 with the people and for the people, even and especially under the auspices of a dictaturship. They really meant it to be good. It has been so successful that it is valid today and was as well adapted by eastern germany. Important founding of Jütte. See previous versions of the article
  • Görings August 1933 ban on animal testing, Shechita and his threat to send animal mistreateers to the KZ was one of the first public announcements of the concentration camps. Important finding of Juette. See previous versions of the article
  • Blondi is not a side aspect but was one of the most famous animals in germany and an icon of animal love in the third reich. See previous versions of the article
  • As well the Himmler quote is not casual - he ment what he said about nazi germans special relationship to animals. Its already to be found in Posen speech See previous versions of the article
  • Animal and human testing
    • The statements now in the article are based on translations of secondary or tertiary research and lack any real touch and grip on the topic.
    • Jütte instead did original research on WWII university papers of Heidelberg and Tübingen university about animal testing and the related red tape (due to the animal testing restrictions) during the war. He e.g. found out some scientists harvested the hay for the animals themselves since the regulation and war time restrictions didnt allow to buy animal food in time.
    • Animal testing was not to be succeeded generally by human testing. HUman testings in the KZs caused victims but didnt provide results. There is obviously a sort of copy and past/ translation error by the american sources. There is no direct way animal to human. point is that the approach to deny variuos human groups the right to exist (and to give animals a better position) gave carte blanche for the euthanasia program and for the pseudoscientific tests in the KZs. See previous versions of the article.
    • The background of the nazi embracing of the Animal welfare movement lays in the comparably low success of those organizations in the Kaiserreich. Jütte has thoroghly researched the steps and the different legal measurements provided reluctantly and the increasing power, antisemtic stance, celebrity involvement etc of the tierschutzmovement. See previous versions of the article
  • I neither acccept that Jüttes quote is not sourced in an adequate way as it is now.--Polentario (talk) 22:43, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm not really following what you mean here. For example, you wrote above: "Görings August 1933 ban on animal testing, Shechita and his threat to send animal mistreateers to the KZ was one of the first public announcements of the concentration camps. Important finding of Juette." Which part of this are you saying was a finding of Juette's?

First The Dachau concentration camp the first one started its operations in June 1933. It was mainly used to detain high level political enemies of the nazis, the opening was not at all formally announced in public. Juette mentions the fact that Goering in August did one of the first public announcement of the existence of those camps especially about animal protection. It - according Juiette - clearly shows the importance of animnal protection for the nazis.

OK Lets do some secondary research. Juettes text attached, I do some remarks where i found the points

Es gehört zu den kaum erforschten Ereignissen in der Zeit kurz nach Hitlers Machtergreifung im Januar 1933, dass bereits am 1. April 1933 der Beschluss der neuen nationalsozialistischen Regierung fiel, ein Reichstierschutzgesetz zu erlassen.

  • The decision to make a Reichstierschutzgesetz, as early as 1.4. has nearly not been taken under scrutiny by historical science

Reichsinnenminister Wilhelm Frick erhielt den Auftrag, ein solches Gesetz auszuarbeiten, und begann umgehend mit den Arbeiten. Da ein derartiges Gesetz ein Novum in der deutschen Rechtsgeschichte darstellte und die Abfassung daher unerwartete Probleme mit sich brachte, wurde erst die vierte Fassung des Gesetzentwurfs vom 4. November 1933 vom Kabinett am 14.11.33 als beschlussfähig angesehen, nachdem bereits drei durchaus verschiedene Fassungen vorausgegangen waren. Immer wieder hatten Tierschutzverbände Gesetzesvorschläge und -entwürfe beim Reichsinnenminister eingereicht und auf die Klärung von Detailfragen gedrungen.

  • There was a big delay of the law making process since Animal Protection organizations had been closley involved and regulalry came up with changes

Die Weichen für das Grundanliegen des Gesetzes waren freilich schon lange vorher gestellt worden: Am 16. August 1933, über drei Monate vor Erlass des Reichstierschutzgesetzes, hatte Hermann Göring in seiner Funktion als preußischer Ministerpräsident die „Vivisektion an Tieren aller Art für das gesamte preußische Staatsgebiet“ per Erlass als verboten erklärt. Eilfertig kommentierte die Reichspressestelle der NSDAP am nächsten Tag: „Der Ministerpräsident hat die zuständigen Ministerien beauftragt, ihm unverzüglich ein Gesetz vorzulegen, nach dem die Vivisektion mit hohen Strafen belegt wird. Bis zum Erlaß dieses Gesetzes werden Personen, die trotz des Verbotes die Vivisektion veranlassen, durchführen oder sich daran beteiligen, ins Konzentrationslager abgeführt.“ (zit. nach EBERSTEIN, 1999, 210)

  • Earlier than the reich lawmaking process was the introduction of the animal testing ban by Goering, as President of of Prussia. According a Nazi pressrelease: Goering wants to introduce a law interdicting vivisection with high punishments. Tiill it will be finalized, anybody doeing vivisection, will be prosecuted into concentration camp.

Obwohl die deutsche Geschichtswissenschaft diese Quelle mitsamt ihrer bemerkenswert frühen Verwendung des Wortes „Konzentrationslager“ bislang völlig übersehen hat, kann der Text auf eindrückliche Weise verdeutlichen, wie ernst die Nationalsozialisten ihre Bemühungen um den Tierschutz meinten. Dass ausgerechnet Vivisektoren strafrechtlich mit den erklärten Feinden des Regimes (KPD, SPD etc.) auf eine Stufe gestellt wurden, verdeutlicht, dass der Tierschutz prominenten Nationalsozialisten, wie beispielsweise Göring, besonders am Herzen lag. Es ist anzunehmen, dass Görings Drohung die in Preußen tätigen Wissenschaftler eingeschüchtert und den Protest der Ärzteschaft unterdrückt hat.

  • "The german historical science has so far completely overseen this source with a remarkeable ealry use of the word 'Konzentrationslager', however (Goerings) quote makes very clear how sincere the nazis were about animal protection. To put animal testers (vivisectros) on the same level with declared enemies of the regime (communists, social democrats etc) shows the importance of animal welfare to the hearts of prominent National socialists. It can be assumed that Goerings threat has suppressed scientific / medical protests in prussia. "

BR --Polentario (talk) 23:37, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

We really can't include material from a student, or any editor's OR. SlimVirgin talk|edits 23:05, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I am not talking about my OR, but I know about sources which are obvioiusly not available in the states. I need half an hour to have a look on dachau exhibition and documentation center. How far away are you? Its a German topic, isn't it?

) BR --Polentario (talk) 23
37, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
"Juette mentions the fact that Goering in August did one of the first public announcement of the existence of those camps especially about animal protection." In what way was this a "finding" of Juette's? SlimVirgin talk|edits 23:41, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

OK, again. June 1933 the Dachau camp was opened as detainment for high level political enemies - about 5000 people in the whole Reich. It started very small. The decision had been taken by a certain Mr. Himmler, when he became police commander in Munich in March 1933. To include here animal testers is a major news and step - and this, according JUette , had not been researched at all before. Why? Scientists have studied soccer association, Ford / IBM / Coca cola germany, chemistry, medicin, lawyers, soldiers, policemen, rocket scientists etc but not before nazi animal welfare and Tierschutz. The whole issue Juette being important - and even sensational some years ago in germany - is that nearly nobody so far had discussed the role of animal welfare in the third reich. It was and is a taboo. Lets say Tierschutz associations are something like the NRA. Dont mess with it, ok? Animal Love is so nice and so very german- it cant have to do anything with Hitler. OK, and here comes a student and does it and starts a probably very far reaching scientifuic carrier, first paper in 2002. 6 Years late this wikipidia article is being quoted in did you know somedays after start- its very important and interesting for the english audience as well here as well. Therefore and for quality sake its important to check and control sources and I dont mid to use and check Juettes sources at all. I have started already since i dont want to waste the work I have already done. OK? BR --Polentario (talk) 00:14, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I'm not following you, because you don't seem to be answering my question. The question is this, and only this: what makes you believe that Juette is responsible for discovering this? SlimVirgin talk|edits 00:38, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

as mentioned above, the connection between animal protection and the eraly phase of the nazi regime has not been pointed out like this before. Focus is either on the holocaust or lawwise 1900 -1933. What you need? What is your problem? I am annoyed.

  • OK calmyl Why is JUette a first respectively why has the topic been neglected. Quiuestion of timeline and focus of the standard research:
  • Internal
    • the statement is one of the central and repeated points in the article (which is a condensed / tutored / papered / reviewed version of the original essay and an FAZ science article IS checked more properly than minor papers or abstracts.
  • External
    • The announcement of Himmler in March 1933 (about dachau being build up) was about political enemies, about 5000 people
    • The KZ literature I am aware, as well dachau exhibition does not mention at all Animal testers as victims of the third reich. It starts with a small but significant group of political detainees 1933, soon jews as well and goes quickly into the war years with all the mass atrocities.
    • Same for Animal protection and the holocaust: It focuses on the holocaust (thats 1941-1945). [ARLUKE, A. & B. SAX (1992): Understanding Nazi Animal Protection and the Holocaust. Anthrozoös, H. 5, 6-31]
    • The literature about animal law goes till 1933 [EBERSTEIN, W. (1999): Das Tierschutzrecht in Deutschland bis zum Erlaß des Reichs-Tierschutzgesetzes vom 24. November 1933. Unter Berücksichtigung der Entwicklung in England.(Animal protection law in germany till the Animal Protection law of 1933, the developements in england taken into consideration )]
    • The work most close to a possible idea giver is SCHWEIGER, K. –P. (1993): "Alter Wein in neuen Schläuchen": Der Streit um den wissenschaftlichen Tierversuch in Deutschland 1900-1935. Inaugural-Dissertation, Göttingen (old wine in new skins, the struggle around scientific animal testing 1900-1935). Thats a dissertation - not a "real" paper.

I assume the interesting fact about JUettes paper that it finds and highlights this very interesting connection between animal protection and KZs and very first 100 days of the regime. It connects elemts and timelines which have been overseen so far. --Polentario (talk) 02:13, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

First, my apologies for adding the bold to my question above. I was getting frustrated, but that's no excuse.
I don't know when Juette wrote his essay, but you say above that he won the prize in 2001. I have a book here on my desk that talks about the concentration camp threat to animal researchers that was published in 2000. I'm also pretty sure I could find much earlier sources than that. That's why I'm asking what makes you think Juette uncovered this. SlimVirgin talk|edits 03:28, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
Here's a source from 1996. [4] SlimVirgin talk|edits 03:32, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
From 1993. [5] SlimVirgin talk|edits 03:39, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
And Hilberg talks about the existence of one of the early camps (citing a memo from October 1933 about a camp near Dachau) in the third volume of The Destruction of the European Jews, which was published in 1961. SlimVirgin talk|edits 03:47, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Slim Virgin, The further sources do not have to do anything with the statements you claim. Its not 'a camp besides Dachau'. If youre not aware that Dachau was the first KZ at all, you better stop editing anything about the NS regime. You just keep on erasing edits without acknowledging facts you seem to have a special agenda or claim an approach of language purity. --Polentario (talk) 20:25, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Daniel Jütte as source

The fact here is that we cannot use Daniel Jütte as RS because he is a student. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 09:13, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

There's also no need. Everything he has been used for has been stated by other specialist sources before him, so I've left most of the material but replaced the sources. SlimVirgin talk|edits 16:19, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

As said, there are basic differences between valid regulations and bans and announcements, between state only and federal levels which are still wrong in the article. The difference between the previous animal testing friendly regulation and the ones introduced by the Reichstierschutzgesetz have not been mentioned but are essential to grasp why Tierschutz was among the most important topics. --Polentario (talk) 16:54, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Differences from modern animal liberation movement

The title of this section seems a bit out of place. Why single out animal liberation movements for comparison, rather than more closely parallel animal welfare laws in other countries? As the section now stands, the main focus is on the historical and ideological basis for the animal welfare program, which is an important topic for the article, but doesn't really fit the heading. Perhaps it could be reworked into a background or ideology section. --Reuben (talk) 00:16, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

The reason behind the section is that Animal liberation movement is a global movement. The section is needed so that readers don't get confused between Nazi animal welfare measures and modern animal liberation or animal rights movement. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 06:52, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
Ah, thanks, that last clarification does help. To me at least, animal liberation meant one specific movement, rather more extreme than animal rights in general; but from looking over the articles here, it seems that the terminology is hard to pin down. Thanks for all your work on the article, it's very interesting. --Reuben (talk) 06:21, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Unreliable and dubious weblinks

The domains worldfuturefund.org and hitler.org are no reliable sources or weblinks for wikipedia. Both don't have an impressum, editorial board or at least a real name given as an author. worldfuturefund.org ist just a postbox and an e-mail adress. Hitler.org seems to be a page for fans of the person H. (and his artwork) and fails to mention H.'s role and responsibiliy as a leader of a regime of mass-murderers. The external-link page of hitler.org is mainly directing to neo-nazi pages. Greetings, --Schwalker (talk) 21:31, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

User:John Z has found a page with a kind of editorial board for wwf.org which I did not know before. Thus I will readd the link to this site again. Greetings, --Schwalker (talk) 21:52, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
Yes, I missed it. I agree here that hitler.org is not RS. But worldfuturefund.org is certainly RS. It describes the law in detail and very useful. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 22:52, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Query

What does "not acknowledged by the industrial elite" mean in this sentence in the lead? "The Nazis used a widespread combination of antisemitic thinking and a back to nature movement not acknowledged by the industrial elite which had started in the 19th century (Völkisch movement)." Also, note that the way it's written means that it was the industrial elite that had started in the 19th century. SlimVirgin talk|edits 19:34, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. The sentence is removed. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 16:50, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Magazine article as a source

This wikipedia article is using as a sources the article Animal Rights in the Third Reich by Aslak Aikio, published in Finnish in KALTIO 2/2003, which appears to be a main Finnish magazine for culture. I think this is a reasonable text for most of its parts, but problematic to use as a source for wikipedia, since it does not reveal all its own sources. Thus the single claims should be treated with caution. For example see the sentence:

"Strict laws prohibiting animal testing were moderated because except a few like Josef Mengele, most researchers showed unwillingness in replacing test animals with humans."

Does "moderated" here refer to the law itself, or rather to how the law was applied in practice? Also, according to the Klueting article, and other books used for the wikipedia article, not just the researchers were against the prohibiton of animal testing, but also the industry and government, but these other sources all do not seem to connect the name of Josef Mengele with animal protection policy. I think the Kaltio article also fails to mention the point that Mengele and other Nazi researchers were testing on the inhabitants of concentration camps without their consensus, and without care for their health and life. --Schwalker (talk) 06:55, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

"The government was against the prohibition of animal testing" - it is wrong. Not the government, actually part of the government people. Hermann Göring never wanted that animals should be killed in the laboratories, but he had to moderate his orders restricting animal testing due to pressure from researchers and government officials, and from the industry, as they told it was impossible to achieve improvement in the field of science without animal testing. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 05:11, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
And regarding the sentence, the Nazi concept on animal protection was completely different from any other concept of animal protection. The Nazis rejected humanity as a concept, and they viewed the Jew as sub-human. The Nazis justified Jewish persecution with animal protection. Hence human testing, i.e. testing on Jews, were justified by the Nazi leadership as alternative to animals, but not all researchers accepted it. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 05:33, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Ok, not all of the government. However, the Kaltio article seems to be the only source so far which makes the claim that the alleged unwillingless of researchers to replace animal testing by human testing was a reason for the moderation of the laws. This is why I think that this claim is not reliable.

I agree that the Nazis rejected humanity as a concept, and reagarded Jews as sub-humans. Nevertheless, their animal protection policy was not completely different from other concepts, which can be seen from the fact that the Tierschutzgesetz would remain legal after the end of the Nazi regime. Nazis justified the ban of kosher butchering with animal welfare. This law was directed against Jews and Jewish butchers and cattle-dealers, and part of the economic persecution. Also animal testing was regarded as "Jewish" science, and Jews were prohibited to keep pets. However, animal protection was only a part of the anti-Jewish ideology, but no sufficient explanation for the persecution and attempted extermination of the European Jews.

I disagree with, and don't know of a source for your claim that for reasons of animal protection, "human testing, i.e. testing on Jews, were justified by the Nazi leadership as alternative to animals". As far as I know, the concentration camp inhabitants who were forced to participate in human testing were not only Jews but for example also Gypsies. Reasons for human testing may have been scientific interest, or sadism of the researchers under circumstances, where people were denied any human rights, but animal protection did not play a (main) role as far as I know.

Greeting, --Schwalker (talk) 11:18, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

OK, since you have pointed out that this fact is not supported by any other source, I have removed it. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 01:56, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
Thanks you, I think this improves the article --Schwalker (talk) 20:24, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Rating of the page

I've given a rating of B for this page as part of Wikiproject Germany, the only thing I would like to see is more supporting materials (pictures, diagrams, etc). However, exactly what type of other materials I suggest escapes me...maybe when I'm less tired. I really liked the one picture included and would like to see more. Tobyc75 (talk) 22:40, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

There are not much pictures available to be used in this article, certainly not "diagrams". The Göring image is the only image available. We need image in an article to address the subject of the article. This article documents animal welfare measures taken by the Nazis. Hence the image should be directly associated with this. Thus the Göring image is the only image can be used in this article. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 09:07, 5 May 2008 (UTC)