Talk:Anglo-Celtic Isles

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[edit] Merge/Redirect to British Isles

I hope I didn't jump the gun by merging/redirecting to the British Isles, but this page was tagged unverified and the guidelines on merging/redirecting only require a debate if I believed that there would be serious opposition.

However, I have added sourced info on the Anglo-celtic isels to the british isels page and felt that the weight agianst the British and Irish Isles page was building on the talk page to the extent that a suggested merge from here would be a waste of time.

If anyone disagrees with me, I urge them to revert; the last thing I want to do is counter policy or to remove articles that people see as having a decent point and future. --Robdurbar 23:06, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

You are maybe jumping too quickly with redirect. The British Isles page does not mention Anglo-Celtic Isles, and it is a term that is being used by some people. You have actually wiped out the only reference to "Anglo-Celtic Isles", and don't you think that Wikipedia should have a proper reference to the term, which would amount to more than a redirect. So I am undoing your redirect until it is discussed a bit further. I can't see the problem you have with British and Irish Isles, it is a term being used. Why are you trying to airbrush these terms. Really I don't see your purpose in doing so. It's a bit like censorship, a Warpactish like smell about it. It's 2006 A.D. --- MelForbes 01:53, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
I acutally ADDED anglo-celtic isles to the terms section of the British Isles page! And I'm only following the naming conventions policies. I'm not airbrushing anything, mearly avoiding the duplication of articles at pages using less common titles. --Robdurbar 08:05, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
I have done a search for "Anglo-Celtic Isles" on th British Isles page, the one that the Anglo-Celtic Isles page is redirected to, and the search results are negative. I am in good faith on these issues. MelForbes 09:42, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Logging in whilst on holiday to clear my name here - god I must be sad -; for one thing, the talk on the British Isles page shows why Anglo-Celtic Isles was removed; but I did add it as this diff shows - [1]. If my edit wasn't good enough for the page then fair does; when I get back, I'll have more time then make a better dourced edit. But 'm not trying to censor anything. --Robdurbar 21:31, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Robdurbar, I think that there may have been some heat of the moment language being used in order to emphasize certain points. I really do believe that it is important to have short pages on some of these terms, and of course, verifiable. Otherwise I hope you have a pleasant holiday.-MelForbes 11:14, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What to Do

I think having these alternative names (Anglo-Celtic and British and Irish Isles) is important for the Wikipedia. However, I am ambivalent as to whether they should be separate articles or merged into one article with British Isles. If they are to be simple redirects, though, we must make sure that the naming controversy is addressed sufficiently within that page. If they are to remain one or two separate articles, I believe we should provide a very quick link at the beginning of the article to the main British Isles page. Thoughts? Isoxyl 12:34, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

'Anglo-Celtic Isles' is an alternative term to 'British Isles' in limited use. It warrants its own encyclopedic entry. It should also be referenced (as existing!) in the text of the 'British Isles' article. User: PConlon 19:16, 22 July 2006

[edit] Need for a better map!

We definitely need a better map than the one existing right now! Can't we just have a copy of the nice one used (of the same geographic region!) in the 'British Isles' article? User: PConlon 19:18, 22 July 2006

Yea, that seems like a good idea, I'll try that. MelForbes 21:31, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Okay, User:EricR :-) MelForbes 21:31, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Joy!:) User: PConlon 13:14, 24 July 2006

[edit] Can we get some verification of this term's use?

Can someone who has a full appreciation of sources that will verify the use, although limited, of this term please insert these? Also, the term isn't appropriately represented in the 'British Isles' article - it does need to go in there with backing verification. Best regards, User: PConlon 13:29, 24 July 2006

Did you notice the other cite at Talk:British Isles/References#Alternate names? Dolley uses Isles rather than isles. Still this is just an example of someone using the name. From WP:NEO: "To support the use of (or an article about) a particular term we must cite reliable secondary sources such as books and papers about the term — not books and papers that use the term." The reasoning behind this guideline is given: "neologisms should be avoided in articles because they may not be well understood, may not be clearly definable, and may even have different meanings to different people. Determining which meaning is the true meaning is original research..."
We need to find a source which addresses those issue to include the name in the British Isles article. For the term to have it's own article we need to find something notable about "Anglo-Celtic Isles" itself—more than just a dictdef (see IONA.) Someone may have to visit a university library and search in some current journals to find what we're looking for.EricR 15:46, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Note of addition

I've inserted a (much needed) explanation of the origin of the term. It reads as follows: 'The term reflects the predominant ethnic make up of the populations inhabiting the islands: the 'Celtic' peoples - the Irish, Manx, Scottish, Cornish and Welsh - and the 'Anglo-Saxon' peoples - the English (other than Cornish).' Regards, Pconlon 19:10, 14 August 2006

Does the predominant population of Yorkshire also have Celtic rather than Anglo-Saxon origin? Regards, Pconlon 19:14, 14 August 2006

[edit] Note of further addition

I came across and have added a useful reference that verifies that the term 'Anglo-Celtic' is used in mainstream literature to collectively describe the cultures inhabiting the archipelago. See: http://media.wiley.com/product_data/excerpt/63/04713186/0471318663.pdf . Regards, Pconlon 11:10, 15 August 2006

Without wanting to appear like I'm crusading against this term - I'm really not - but it should be noted that, as you hint at, this use is 'these Anglo-Celtic isles' i.e Anglo-Celtic is an adjective describing the isles, but is not being used as the name 'Anglo-Celtic Isles'. The author could be using 'these foggy isles', for example, in the same way. --Robdurbar 19:09, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
There's a new one. Can we all agree on "The Foggy Isles"? *whimsical at 4am* I have to agree with Rob here; the Dolley reference is the only one I've seen that refers to the islands as "the Anglo-Celtic Isles". The others are using it as a generic adjective, like "foggy", "wet", and so on. And referring to the cultures of the islands as Anglo-Celtic (and I'd personally like to dispute the Anglo- part of that phrase, thankyouverymuch) is not anywhere near establishing "the Anglo-Celtic Isles" as the name of the islands. Vashti 03:09, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
That reference is placed to back up the sentence to which the footnote is attached - i.e. confirming that the archipelago's populations have been referred to collectively as 'Anglo-Celtic cultures'. It's not placed there to prove the use of the term 'Anglo-Celtic Isles'. I think that 'the Foggy Isles' might have a strong arguement to support it...but I imagine the British and Irish tourist boards will want to repress that one!!! LOL! Kind regards, Pconlon 14:55, 16 August 2006
But the thing is that proving the term Anglo-Celtic is in use, doesn't do anything to support the term Anglo-Celtic Isles in the context it's being given. It's a bit of a pickle. However, if that's what you're after, Cardiff University's Arts & Social Sciences library has this reference in its online catalogue:
  • Fryer, Michael (1832 [1842?]). The trial and life of Eugene Aram : several of his letters and poems; and his plan and specimens of an Anglo-Celtic lexicon / with copious notes and illustrations, and an engraved fac-simile of the handwriting of this very ingenious but ill-fated scholar. Richmond : Printed by and for M. Bell. 
Can I suggest that you may barely have the material for a page on Anglo-Celticism (sp?), probably including discussion of the developing term Anglo-Celtic Isles, but this page is going to be a non-starter due to a lack of sources - note that sources that document the term itself, as Wikipedia requires for verifiability, have still not emerged. Vashti 20:20, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
Agree. An article on the term 'Anglo-Celtic' and its uses might well be a runner, including possibly a mention of the term Anglo-Celtic Isles - but there's still nothing to base an 'Anglo-Celtic Isles' article on. Bastun 11:56, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Additional Verification Added

I have added two additional, easily-found references that show the ACI term in use. I will look to provide further verification, however I feel that that presently provided makes it appropraite to remove the 'not verified' tag from the top of the article. Kind regards, Pconlon 19:02, 16 August 2006

I'd have to dispute this bookrefernce one. Its just from some Wiki and we all know how usless they are... Seriously, though, I'm not sure if that one can be used to justify 'some bookstore and library referncing systems'. The other reference is food for thought, though. --Robdurbar 19:24, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
Removed the reference to the library referencing system... a self-published website (such as a blog or personal wiki) is not a reliable source according to Wikipedia policy. (I've a pbwiki myself for a game I run). The ballad in the other reference is dated 1914 - so clearly less than a century. The ballad in question can't be found anywhere else on the net, which is unusal, and could well be dismissed as poetic language in any case and hardly a basis for claiming the existence of a term in actual use. However, I've left it alone for the moment. Bastun 11:49, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Looking at the history, and as regards the "uncheckable book" statement, I take it that it's the Celtic Geographies you're referring to as uncheckable? You can, in fact, go to the book's page at amazon.com and use their "Search Inside" feature to verify that the text appears just as the reference says it does. I'd consider that sufficient checkage of the reference, although not enough to remove the unverified tag. Vashti 20:45, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
As far as Harvey et al. goes, the provided quote is all there is; the authors have a great deal to say about 'Celtic', some about 'Anglo-Celtic', but all i saw was the one use of 'Anglo-Celtic isles'. In my opinion, none of the sources so far provide verification (considering WP:NEO). EricR 21:16, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Thanks, Vashti - never knew about that feature on Amazon before. As EricR says, there is only one use of the term, and then it's isles: "...potential shift of the geopolitical centre of gravity of the Anglo-Celtic isles for the first time since the establishment of the Irish Republic." Enough, imho, to warrant restoring the unverified tag (which was removed earlier by MalForbes). Bastun 22:42, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 'Not verified' tag

Can we please leave the 'not verified' tag in place, unless and until there's justification for it's removal? As has been shown in the above discussion, all we have to actually verify the term is one website quoting a ballad, which cannot be found anywhere else on the web. All the other references are to 'Anglo-Celtic culture' or 'Anglo-Celtic isles (small 'i'). Much as some might wish it otherwise, that still doesn't get around WP:V or WP:NEO. I've had to put up with that tag being applied to some pages I've written/contributed to too, and I've abided by policy, leaving it in place till I could come back and cite references. Bastun 13:19, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

It's all a little moot now, innit? However, Wikipedia:Deletion review is -> that way... Vashti 13:40, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] AFD result

Articles for deletion This article was nominated for deletion on 11 August 2006. The result of the discussion was Redirect to British Isles.

[edit] Sandbox move

User:Pconlon requested that the article be put into his userspace for deleveopment. In order to comply with licences etc., I should point out that the history of the pre-afd article (the non-redirect version) can now be found at User:Pconlon/Anglo-Celtic Isles sandbox --Robdurbar 09:01, 21 November 2006 (UTC)