Talk:Anglo–Spanish War (1585)

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I was under the impression that Sir Francis Drake was executed by James I, and therefore could not have been killed in an expedition.

No, Francis Drake died of dysentery in the Caribbean in 1596. You may be thinking of Sir Walter Raleigh.

Are there books written about this entire war, not just the armada battle?

I don't think so. J.H. Eliot Europe Divided 1559-1598 (1968), although old-style and not covering the entire period, is still an excellent read and covers European aspects that most English language histories gloss over.

  • I believe Grenville's Revenge went down in a storm during the Azores battle, along with many Spanish vessels. And Drake and Hawkins weren't killed, but died of disease. I'll add a bit more about Ireland.--shtove 13:48, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Land campaigns

There should be more about the Netherlands, Calais and Brittany.--shtove 22:01, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Infobox

Considering that the outcome of the war was more favorable to Spain if not a Spanish victory, the picture of the Armada defeat atop the infobox will give a wrong impression to anyone who doesn't read the whole article. It might be better to use a pic of a Spanish victory or at least of a neutral battle. SamEV 02:00, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

By all means, providing such a picture can be found. Albrecht 02:38, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Best luck to you. :) SamEV 11:46, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Certainly the war was indecisive, but the spin put on the period after Gravelines to create the impression that England suffered the worst defeats is stupid. Comparing the Spanish Armada to the English Armada a year later and coming to the conclusion that they yielded similar results is similarly riduculous, seeing as how the Dutch and English actually managed to land a large invasion force on Portugese soil. The success of the privateering was much the same as it was before 1588 as well. The only item that marks it out as any different is the fact that two of England's leading captains died. Privateering was always risky, especially when the conducted in a region almost solely dominated by one power like the Spanish Main. Anyway, I see little point on relying on books with titles as unimaginative and narrow as this one: "The Defeat of the English Armada and the 16th-Century Spanish Naval Resurgence"

I didn't think anybody could come up with anything to argue back with. Do you know why that is? It's because the majority of people who edit the history pages of this website do not have the slightest education in the study of history. To you, the most important thing is national pride and so, as is completely self-evident, any logic or rationality is lost. I suggest you give it up because the more you persist, the more it will provoke similarly-minded people to do the same.

I'd not read your comments till now. I respectfully decline to give you any more of a reply than this. Good day. SamEV 07:06, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

The author of the above statements engages in name calling by referring to the points of this history article as "stupid". All too often, some people get upset if history is not portrayed in a strictly anglocentic point of view. Too much of our English language history is presented in a seletcive, spun, and even lied about manner such that the British are almost allways the victors and the good guys. But with the internet, those days are over. --Scipio-62 (talk) 14:45, 24 January 2008 (UTC)--Scipio-62 (talk) 14:44, 24 January 2008 (UTC)Scipio-62 07:06, 24 January 2008--

His tone was uncalled for. And yes, English history could be more objective, though I suppose this can be said about every country, perhaps. SamEV (talk) 02:19, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't agree. You can read many texts in which Spanish and French historians readily admit defeats such as Trafalgar or the Armada of 1588. Its very rare where I read of English language texts about British defeats such as Cartagena or the great exploits of French admiral Suffren. --Charles A 06:37, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Most wars of the time were actually like this one - weighing up the advantages and disadvantages gained is not easy and requires a very broad perspective. Originally the box showed the "result" as just the "Treaty of London". Then somebody put "English victory" - and so retaliation came by replacing it with "Spanish victory" - given that the Spanish won more battles and reinforced their position vis-a-vis the broader picture which included a determined attack on their colonial trade and colonies - the war with England actually favoured Spain but could hardly be said to be overwhelming and the article actually makes this quite clear. That said - it is not a straightforward thing to access and usually reality is like that - messy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.84.93.185 (talk) 05:07, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Edits since 17/04/07

Not happy with all of these - will revert and edit them over the weekend. Any objections?--Shtove 20:42, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I removed stuff from the intro - some of it was tendentiously in favour of Spain, and the rest is treated in the article in a balanced manner.
Improvements needed: the background section stretches back too far, there should be brief accounts of the 1588 Armada, of the campaigns in the Netherlands, Normandy and Brittany, and of the terms of the 1604 treaty.--Shtove 21:51, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Portugal on Spanish Side

I think Portugal should be included as ally of Spain in the war box, as it happened.Câmara 14:21, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 05:27, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

== Who won this war?S Did England win? --?.  The great Darren shan fan  20:02, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

No. England did not win and did not rule the waves as many Anglocentic history books so wrongfully asserted. When king James I ascended to the English throne in 1603, he quickly realized that the war was a fruitless enterprise and thereafter signed the peace treaty of 1604 with the Spanish with terms favorable to Spain. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Scipio-62 (talk • contribs) 14:41, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Somebody had the temerity to insert that the Spanish navy "some success" in defending the treasure fleets (after 1588) in the introductory section. One of the primary reasons for this war was English desire for that treasure. Now people will point to the burning of the treasure fleet at Cadiz by the Spanish themselves in 1596 as a "failure" but it was in fact a premeditated succesful defensive move - the ship were relatively slow moving galleons bullt that way for long oceanic voyages of cargoes - and not just treasure. In the ocean they were tough to take on, but in harbour they were vulnerable to faster moving vessels designed exclusively for war. The commander of the treasure fleet was no fool so he sank them where their precious cargoes could be recovered easily later. The vessels themselves were just that, expendable vessels. The Anglo-Dutch fleets goal was to sieze the treasure - it failed and the expedition ended up sapping the English war effort instead of helping it.

Another thing worth mentioning is that England could ill afford to continue the war with Spain. Up until that time, England had not developed colonies in the new world to nearly the same extent as Spain. In order to for England to develop it's new world colonies and expand her empire, she had to make peace with Spain. Which is why King James I wisely decided to make peace with Spain in 1604 rather than continue the crazed bankrupting policies of that foolish Queen Elizabeth that got England nowhere.--Charles A 23:04, 13 March 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Scipio-62 (talk • contribs)

[edit] Did Spain "win"?

Surely a Spanish victory would have been to conquer England. I think it would make more sense to have the result in the infobox to just refer to the Treaty and let readers decide who "won". Or maybe say the result was inconclusive and refer to the treaty. John Smith's (talk) 20:52, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Not necessarily- this was a complex and evolving matter. It was not only about religion, but trade and colonies as well as balance of power politics. For an interesting discussion on the matter follow the external link to Wes Ulm's article. Its worth the read. I preferred it when the info box merely showed the result as "Treaty of London", this was the status quo for a long time, then somebody put English Victory (!) and of course that was replaced soon after with Spanish victory, which seems more deserved but with strong qualifications. But I think it is best returned to as it was originally. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.84.92.52 (talk) 13:26, 3 March 2008 (UTC)