Talk:Angel (Neon Genesis Evangelion)

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[edit] Book of Enoch and a word or two on Lilith

Watching Evangelion reminded me of the Book of Enoch, as well as the story of Lilith, the first wife of Adam before Eve. Head over to the the Wikipedia section of the Book of Enoch and Lilith to have a read. The first mentions the Watchers, the angels who were supposed to watch over humans. The leaders' names and translated names are listed, such as Shamsiel, "Sun of God." They generally fit the translated names listed in the NGE angels list, but it should be noted where some of these names come from. In the Bible, very rarely are angels given names. And also about the Book of Giants, the Nephilim. I found it interesting that there were giants who preyed upon man and beasts and then fed upon eachother's flesh and blood. It reminded me of when ever Unit 01 would go ape and eat an angel. It might not mean anything, but it's a good read.

And about Lilith. She's appearantly been around for a long time, but it's said in The Alphabet of Ben-Sira, a medieval writing, that she left Adam and the garden because she refused to be below him during sex, and therefore, did not eat from the Tree of Knowledge. She appearantly swore to destroy all of Eve's children and gave birth to demons. Also, she knew the true name of God, and to know the true name of God is to have power over Him, so it says.

NGE feels like it's a mix of everything. Maybe it all lies with the fact that they're not angels but just messengers; 18 messages, with humans being the conclusion. Anyway, it's all speculation.

That's really all I'd like to mention. I didn't mean to rant. I just wanted to point out the Book of Enoch and shed some light on Lilith and possibly start a little conversation about the two. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by ElijahD (talk • contribs) .


I´ve heard from a close friend of mine (and, by the way, a big fan of the Evangelion series) that after some research about NGE subjects, he discoverd that the first three Eva´s designs were actually based on "demons": EVA 00, the "one eyed" demon; EVA 01, the "screaming" demon and EVA 02, the "four eyed" demon...anyone has some information about this? Iaquil 196.40.68.218 17:27, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

The Barons of Hell are an Internet Rumor, nothing more. See here. Reichu 19:31, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Deus Ex Machina. "Angels" are nothing but plot devices high on steroids, really. People have been trying to explain what they mean, what they are and everything else since Evangelion became popular, when it's obvious that they're just a rather simple invention to fill a bad storytelling. According to this article they're beings and no other explanation is given. Dogs or cats or horses are not canine, feline or equine mammals, let's say they're just beings, wow, great information to put on an online encyclopedia.
I can imagine the guys in Gainax back then trying to figure out how to make more money out of their business, it must have been something like:
--Hey, we need some evil alien villain thingies on this cartoon.
--Uh yeah, why don't we plagiarize some Angels' names or whatever? Teens will dig it, they'll believe we're like giving a secret message or something.

In and after the end of Evangelion, the only thing left is a low budget animated series with no meaning at all and no other purpose but exploit of merchandising. That, and thousands of naive fans trying to figure out the gag line of a bad joke.

It's really sad to see it takes a cartoon for someone to become interested in our background and heritage as western judeo-christian societies and read stuff like the Book of Enoch or whatever, when it was already there, long before Evangelion...
Loborojo

All right that makes senses, except for one thing. Name one franchise that doesn’t have a major enemy. Or are you saying that since they didn’t have every minuscule fact plotted out before hand that that Angels were a plot device. If that’s your definition of “Deus Ex Machina” not much is going you escape thatThe Twilight Goddess 20:04, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "First Ancestral Race"/NGE 2 videogame canonicity?

I'm confused; who said that the information from the NGE 2 videogame is canonical? What is the source? Wait, so the "Black Egg" is Lilith's egg, which is what Nerv's base was built around (according to Ikari in episode 20 they built the base around it after finding it). So...where do Angels come from? They're all "born from Adam", but how? What is the "White Egg", how can it be the moon, etc? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 130.64.137.195 (talk • contribs) 12:43, 3 December 2006 (UTC).

I have never played the NGE2 game, but it is published by Gainax and is said to be a view from different angles from most of the characters on the same event in the Newtype magazine. This should be enough prove of it being canonical. If not, you have to find proof for why the original series is canonical, which will be a really stupid thing to do. MythSearchertalk 13:49, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
The CI from NGE2 is considered canon to the plotline of the series and gives us a large ammount of vital information including the origins of the Angels and the nature of the Lance of Longinus, although it's purposedly ambiguous in certain points. A full translation can be found here. Note that the game itself is just a retelling of the series' plot and thus doesn't add anything to NGE's plot and cannot be considered canonical, it is just the Confidential Information from the game that is canon as it was obtained by extensively interviewing the series' creators.
That is extremely informative, however I'm confused about section 6-D: "Nerv Headquarters was constructed inside the Black Moon containing Lilith. The Angels are all heading for Nerv H.Q. so that they can make contact with Lilith, the white giant in Terminal Dogma. They were aiming for her from the start, not Adam."...er, as is my understanding, the Angels were heading for Adam, not Lilith. To the point that Kawaru/Tabris refused when he realized it was Lilith and not Adam, plus Gaghiel attacked the UN convoy because Adam was in it, etc. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 130.64.137.195 (talk) 03:58, 17 December 2006 (UTC).
Oddly enough, it later mentions how some Angels are headed for Lilith (explaining the attacks by Angels before Adam was even moved to Tokyo-3), some for Adam, and some have nothing in mind. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nightmare X (talk • contribs) 02:05, 19 December 2006 (UTC).

Thanks for putting that note about the S2 back in, I didn't mean to cull it at all. Willbyr (talk | contribs) 22:40, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rei an Angel?

Per the last big edit: Has Gainax or Anno specifically stated whether or not Rei should be considered an Angel? Willbyr (talk | contribs) 13:28, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

No idea. But out of the paragraph, it appeared that the whole article based itself in the fact that Rei was an angel. Feel free to remove that line if it does not change the meaning of the article. -- ReyBrujo 04:41, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
Rei is more of a derivative of Lilith. She should be mentioned here, not under a separate heading but in her relation to Lilith. I think the current form of this page is good. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.112.26.170 (talk • contribs).
For the sake of simplicity: Rei is a clone, though she doesn't actualy fall into that deffenition. From the inferences contained in the series, Rei was "born" from the combination of the DNA of Lilith and Shinji Ikari's mother, Yui. As the previous comment stated, she should be considerd a "derivative" of Lilith. While she maintains a (for lack of a better term) unique personality/soul (actualy it may be more safe to say that she is a human embodiment of Lilith with all awareness of that connection suppressed). She is still bound by her DNA to Lilith so that she eventualy becomes the fuse by which the Third Impact begins. I agree that Rei should be mentioned in connection with Lilith. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.153.183.218 (talk) 17:08, 24 January 2007 (UTC).
Actually (and this is my opinion) I think Rei is “Tabris” ‘cas Kaworu said there “The same”. The fact that the Angels are "another possibility, a race of humans that abandoned human form" supports this. Rei and Kaworu are the same possibility. P.S plz don’t flame me for having an original idea.The Twilight Goddess 00:34, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
I have no idea what you're trying to say here. Hellbus 03:25, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
I think I see what he/she is getting at, but it's my understanding that Kaworu is specifically identified as Tabris in all canon materials. Although Rei has some Angelic powers, she is not an Angel, per the discussion above, which is pretty much spot-on IMO. Willbyr (talk | contribs) 03:49, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

I think theres an official pic somewhere floating around where Rei is labeled as Eve. This would solidfy her connection with Lilith further. Kaworu comments they are the same, meaning they are clones and Kaworu carries the soul of Adam as Rei carries the soul of Lilith. The reason their human form is abnormal is though, at least in the manga,(Albinioism) to be because of the angel DNA spliced in. Its intresting to note that Lilith in the Zohar is considered the "shell of Eve". Xuchilbara 03:30, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

What Kaworu and Rei were saying was a reference to something from the original series premise, that was later mentioned in the Confidential Information from the NGE2 game which was mentioned in the above talk section. That Rei was derived from Lilith and Kaworu from Adam, they were both progenitors of types of human being, known as Seeds of Life. Not that they were both the same person. It's quite an oblique reference. --Tyrfing 01:24, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Literal" meanings

Several times in this document, passages like the following are present: "The thirteenth Angel, Bardiel, named after Barachiel," ... "Bardiel literally means "Humiliated Son of God,"". Can someone enlarge on these descriptions or provide some cites?

I would appreciate this, as the current wording seems to be contradictory. Either Bardiel is named after Barachiel, whose name is translated from Hebrew as "the Blessings of God" by Wikipedia ( in which case the claim of a literal translation is incorrect ), or the name is entirely independent, not connected to Barachiel except by virtue of also being a Biblical theophoric name ( in which case the claim that the angel is named after Barachiel is spurious ). - 219.194.176.65 13:33, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

I think it's that the name Bardiel is based off of the name Barachiel (which means "the Blessings of God) but it isn't exactly Barachiel (since it's Bardiel, which means "humiliated son of god")... However, I can completely see your point. Many of these Angels are named after actual angels, such as Sandalphon. However, wouldn't Bardiel then be named after the angel Bardiel? Where did "Barachiel" come from, anyway? I think it's exactly spuriousness that we're looking at here. Can anyone enlighten me as well? -JC 13:38, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Has Gainax ever released anything stating why those specific names were chosen? Willbyr (talk | contribs) 17:48, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Hi, this is the initial questioner ( at work though, sorry about the different I.P. ) - it would be remiss of me not to mention that there is an angel Bardiel, who appears in Ginzberg's "The Legends of the Jews", Volume 1, Book 3, subsection "The Translation of Enoch". Several copies of this document are available online. In this volume, Bardiel is attributed as the Angel of Hail. I think the obvious conclusion is that Bardiel is simply named after the Angel Bardiel. - 60.36.46.80 07:59, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Manga Vs Anime

There needs to be some further clarification of the differences of the angels between the manga and anime. Excluding humans, the anime uses 17, the manga only uses 12. Seraphimneeded 13:46, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

It's been a long time since I've read the manga, but from what I remember the Angels do not differ in their forms, attacks, or eventual fates in the manga. The only significant difference is that some Angels don't appear in the manga, and Gaghiel's role is pretty much an afterthought. The biggest difference is in Kaworu's personality and roles, but that's addressed both in this article and in his own article. Willbyr (talk | contribs) 14:25, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Actually, Bardiel has a some-what new attack in extending it's arm underground before having it reemerge and grasp Eva 01's throat. Also, Israfel does not reform into the main form, but remains seperate as Kou and Otsu, suggesting it cannot reform in the manga. Zeruel21 Contributions 11:08, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Arael

In his article it says “Although in the anime Asuka suffered no apparent aftereffects of the beam, in the manga, Asuka is reduced to a vegetative state due to mental shock”, but after that her sync rate drops to 0, that seems like a bit of an over sight doesn’t it? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by The Twilight Goddess (talk • contribs).

While the comment is referring to the fact that she is up and around immediately after the attack in the anime whereas she's flat on her back in the manga, I can see where it could be confusing. I'll edit the statement accordingly. Don't forget to sign your posts. Willbyr (talk | contribs) 05:04, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Regarding the note on Unit 00's strength and the Lance: While the statement is true in and of itself, the Lance moves on its own to Earth in EoE, so it's entirely possible that the Lance was helping itself to fly. I doubt there's anything official to support that idea, though. Willbyr (talk | contribs) 17:30, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

The Confidential Information says that the Lance is a lifeform with its own volition, so I have no problem believing it can fly. It would sort of need to to accomplish its mission of suppressing Seeds of life. --Gwern (contribs) 01:00 23 May 2007 (GMT)

[edit] Shamshel Speculation

I would like to remove the following passage from the section on Shamshel:

Some fans of the show argue that this Angel's shape and design are phallic in origin, reflecting some Freudian references said to be found in the series. (Shamshel's character designer, Yoshitoh Asari, actually depicts the Angel as female in an erotic manga short called "Angel Kiss".) It may also represent a Caduceus, with its shaft-like body and two sepentine whips.

This passage is simply speculation and has no place on Wikipedia. The fact that it contains weasel words (Which I have indicated) also retracts from its credibility. Also there is no citation for the claim regarding Yoshitoh Asari. I will remove this paragraph unless someone can supply a reason not to. On the topic I would like someone to provide a citation for the final line in the Shamshel section (Shamshel literally means "Lonely Conqueror of God."). –cheese-cube 01:56, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

The user 24.21.154.177 has put in a ton of stuff in this article today. Some of it is useful (the note that Ramiel appears to be hollow) but most is speculative and POV. I reverted him earlier, but he's back with a vengeance. I'm too tired to take care of it tonight - is anyone going to police his edits or will they be left? Willbyr (talk | contribs) 03:53, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
I apologize. I was overzealous and got carried away. (I'm user 24.21.154.177). Radioactive afikomen 23:03, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Shamshel's core

Okay, I need to clarify this: there is a running theory that Shamshel's recovered "core" was used in Eva Unit 04. HOWEVER, I don't think they said an "S2 Organ" and a "Core" are exactly the same thing (indeed, Eva's have "cores" as well, as we saw in the Zeruel fight). Or are the S2 Engines based on research on Shamshel's corpse? I'm literally working from poorly translated YouTube copies here, please help.--Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici 07:00, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Without actually breaking out the DVD with that episode: It's my understanding that the Angels' S² Engines are a part of their cores. Since Shamshel's core was heavily damaged by the Prog Knife, I would think that NERV would've dissected the core remnants and reverse-engineered Unit 04's S² Engine from the remains. Unit 01 (and, presumably, the other Evas) already had a core at the start of the series, so it stands to reason that Unit 04 probably had its own core as well, without the need to try to rebuild Shamshel's core. (speculation, of course) Willbyr (talk | contribs) 14:29, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Source of all Angel names

I got the literal translation of Shamshel (and verified the meanings of all the other Angels' names) from Theophory in the Bible, but I wasn't sure if you can cite Wikipedia as a source in a Wikipedia article. Radioactive afikomen 23:16, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Nevermind. I found the proper source of the Angels' name-translations in List of Biblical names: Hitchcock's New and Complete Analysis of the Holy Bible by Roswell D. Hitchcock, New York: A. J. Johnson, 1874, c1869. (Now how do you cite sources?) Radioactive afikomen 03:16, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

With the addition of this reference, there's still some contradictory information in the entries that needs to be pared out. Willbyr (talk | contribs) 04:08, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Angels in past or present tense?

All the Angel entries mix their past and present tenses. When I rewrote/cleaned up the Ramiel and Gaghiel sections (which, by the way, I plan to do to all of them) I wasn't sure whether to use straight present-tense ("The fifth Angel, Ramiel, is") or straight past-tense ("The fifth Angel, Ramiel, was"). Properly, I think it should all be past-tense, but it feels awkward introducing an Angel in the very first sentence as "was". (I feel "was" has a sense of uncertainty about it, as opposed to the secure anchor of "is".) Radioactive afikomen 06:03, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

I would say use present tense except when referring to events connected to the Angels that occur in the past in the story. Willbyr (talk | contribs) 12:16, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Use "is" because as of the now, the events of NGE haven't happened yet. (Bring this up again in 2016.) MISSINGNO. was here. 17:47, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
Hehehe, actually, we use present tense for fantasy articles, check Contextual presentation:

Details of creation, development, etc. relating to a particular fictional element are more helpful if the reader understands the role of that element in the story. This often involves providing plot summaries, character descriptions or biographies, or direct quotations. By convention, these synopses should be written in the present tense, as this is the way that the story is experienced as it is read or viewed. At any particular point in the story there is a 'past' and a 'future', but whether something is 'past' or 'future' changes as the story progresses. It is simplest to recount the entire description as continuous 'present'.

Hope that helps. -- ReyBrujo 04:11, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Minor Stuff

Interesting things that might be worthy of inclusion here; The Eva RPG has two more Angels (With names apparently taken from the Koran). One is Iblis, who looks like a big metal turtle, and the other one is something like "Barjaquiel", who I've never seen, but who appears to be an amoeba. In addition, there's the Diemay Angel, the winner of a fan drawing contest who got made official and drawn by Gainax artists. And finally, there's CODE: B.E., who I know nothing about except that she looks like a translucent Rei and was released in the new line of "female" Angels. Are these worthy to be added to the page?

Incidentally, another tidbit is that, according to Sachiel's designer, Sachiel knows Kung Fu. I can't remember where I heard this, only that I did NOT make this up. Belgium EO 22:29, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

The explicit purpose of this article is to explain the Angels as they are in the anime or manga itself; such "extra Angels" do not merit inclusion here. If they are to be mentioned at all, it should be in their own article ("Additional Angels", "Other Angels", or some such name), perhaps with a link to it at the bottom of this Angel article. Radioactive afikomen 15:14, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

By “The RPG” do you mean NGE 2?The Twilight Goddess 02:50, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Not necessarily. For example, the first game, Neon Genesis Evangelion: 1st Impression, introduced a new Angel. So far as I know NGE 2 didn't introduce any new Angels, though. --Gwern (contribs) 03:31 23 April 2007 (GMT)

Well then what is he talking about?The Twilight Goddess 01:33, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Who knows? There are a number of games that could be desribed as an Eva RPG. --Gwern (contribs) 04:03 24 April 2007 (GMT)

[edit] Pictures of the Angels

I don't think the current picture of Shamshel is particularly helpful. It lends very little towards understanding what the Angel actually looked like (which is the whole point of having any picture at all). Can someone find a better shot of this Angel? Perhaps even two pictures: one depicting Shamshel in its horizontal "flight mode" and the other depicting it in vertical "combat mode."

I also think the Matarael article could use a second, close-up shot showing its eyes. The current picture adequately shows the Angel's shape, but not its eyes. And maybe there should even be a third shot, of Matarael producing its acid. Radioactive afikomen 15:36, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

The Tabris article also needs a better picture; preferably something like a screenshot of him descending towards Terminal Dogma. (Properly, it should be a shot showing him after revealing that he is an Angel—anytime before that, he's still Kaworu Nagisa.)

The current picture of him looks like it belongs on a postage stamp. Radioactive afikomen 16:04, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Agreed all the way around, although one pic of Matarael releasing its solvent should sufficiently show its multiple eyes. Willbyr (talk | contribs) 17:43, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Thoughts?

--The Article says that most of the characters are unaware of the Angels names, but at one point Shinji says “our enemies are beings called Angels, they have the names of the Angels too”, Which would indicate the knows all there names(and read the Old Testament).71.221.69.171 03:30, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Wouldn't it make more sense that the names are just made up by Nerv to code name different Angels instead of being their real names? I mean their real names were never revealed in the series or any other places? Anyway, that sentence seems to be incorrect and should be modified. MythSearchertalk 16:11, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
A problem we don't know is if the Angels have original names or just human codenames; the only ones named on-air in dialogue are Adam and Lilith. Problem is that Kaworu/Tabris knows these names, but then again, seeing as he is from SEELE, he could have just heard the codenames from them. YES, it would seem they are code-names applied by NERV as Shinji does say they have the names of Angels. --Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici 17:55, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
My understanding is that the Angels were named in the Dead Sea Scrolls, which is why they have names at all.The Twilight Goddess 02:33, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
The names of the angels are all listed in the special features of the DVD, along with a profile to go with it. Therealsquee 02:40, 25 April 2007 (UTC)—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Therealsquee (talk • contribs) 02:39, 25 April 2007 (UTC).
No I mean in Eva the Angels names were written on the Dead Sea Scrolls in SEELE’s possession.The Twilight Goddess 03:53, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
Well yeah SEELE knows that, but does everyone else? I think based on Shinjis comment that they do. --Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici 04:49, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
Everyone that is at least slightly in the know calls them Angels, even Shinji's classmates who are supposed to be kept in the dark. The term Angel was mentioned in the first episode by Gendo: Yes, there's no doubt. It's an Angel. However their individual names are only seen in the Seele slide shows in Episodes 14 and 23. Shinji actually says: Angels, messengers of God, enemies named after servants of Heaven. Why are we fighting them? Not that they have the names of individual Angels that need only mean that collectivly they are called Angels --Tyrfing 01:35, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Design notes on Angels, and a question about Sachiel

I've been wondering about inclusion of notes and comments from the designers of the Angels; is there much in the way of source-able material on this? Also, about Sachiel's weaponry: Has it been confirmed that the energy nails are actually a bone in its arms, or is that just a best guess on its function? After re-reading the manga, it seems more logical that the nails just slide through its arms and out the holes in its "hands" like Wolverine's claws extending and retracting. If there's notes confirming that, they need to be added in; if not, I'm going to rewrite that particular bit. Willbyr (talk | contribs) 14:07, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

There's that one silly doujinshi, but I'm not aware of any other sources from the designers. --Gwern (contribs) 16:24 23 April 2007 (GMT)
In the model produced by Bandai, that bone is intact and coloured white. It is not a pure energy weapon like a light-sabre or beam sabre(plasma blade), it is more like a heated hole punch. MythSearchertalk 16:45, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure if any of that is right; it seemed just like an energy beam thing I will rewatch. Citable notes? well there's the DVD commentary.--Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici 16:55, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
A "heated hole punch" is a pretty good description, although I doubt it would be appropriate for the article.  ;-) MythSearcher, do you know of a link to that model kit? Willbyr (talk | contribs) 18:28, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Sorry for the delay, I guess I did not see the reply at that time, here is a link to the LM model: cover, detailed pictures. On the bigger model LM-HG, cover, complete that part is coloured white instead of black. MythSearchertalk 02:11, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the pics, MythSearcher. I don't know if any of them would be good for the article, but they do help. Willbyr (talk | contribs) 02:50, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Is there a word to describe the shape of Sachiel's hands? I was going to put something in its entry, but I couldn't think of the right word (if there is one). Willbyr (talk | contribs) 21:06, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Personally, I always saw the nails things as being pile drivers. --Gwern (contribs) 01:42 19 July 2007 (GMT)

[edit] What the heck is Kaworu/Tabris?

How can Kaworu be BOTH the 17th Angel, as well as the "Vessel containing the soul of Adam". First off, I'm not sure why they needed to be messing around with souls and such in the first place; I do get that he is SEELE's equivalent of Rei. And that Rei is the vessel of Lilith's soul. Why did they need their souls separated in the first place?

Regardless.....is Kaworu his own independent Angel or what? I mean...he's got BOTH Adam's soul as well as his own soul rattling around inside himself? Some have pointed out that Armisael, Angel #16, actually feels "alone" when it talks to Rei II, and that this may be because it is the last "true" Angel. But they do call Kaworu "the 17th and last Angel", not just some science experiment gone awry. And I guess Rei doesn't count as an actual "Angel" (close to the Evas in that regard). Ok, I know that there is more than one VERSION of Third Impact, each of which could go down differently and involve different things (Lilith is essential but Eva 01 by itself could do in a pinch, you need the original Lance of Longinus (not just a copy), etc. etc.) and that if the Angels initiate it, the ANGELS will move on in the evolutionary jump of Third Impact and the humans will die off; so if SEELE and Gendo wanted to take control of 3-I, they needed to get rid of the Angels first. But Kaworu wanted to go back to Adam, as all Angels do, but when he realized it was Lilith, he didn't. Was this because merging with Lilith would have ended ALL life? What was the difference for him between merging with Adam and not Lilith? --Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici 21:20, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Those are all good questions. I don't know. So far as I know, there is only one soul in Kaworu, which was Adam's. But his body is descended from Adam, which makes the body an Angel in its own right. The reason Armisael feels alone is because it is contacting a Seed of Life, Lilith. I'm not sure whether it is just that you can't feel a Seed of Life as alien from yourself, or whether it was just so alien Armisael didn't recognize an Other, though. That'd be a good question to ask on the EvaMonkey forums.
As for 3I: you've almost got it right. The First Ancestral Race only intended the Angels to colonize Earth, and Lilith arriving as well was an accident; humanity usurped the world. So for the Angels to reach 3I would be for Adam to accomplish his/her's old mission of seeding the Earth; Adam and Lilith-based ecosystems are inconsistent (remember in 2I, everything born of Lilith around and in Antarctica died and would have been replaced). It's not really a matter of evolving, except if anyone unites the Fruits of Life and Knowledge (then they "become as gods").
Not all angels seek out Adam; the Confidential Information IIRC says some had no real purpose and some actually sought out Lilith. There's a possibly major plot hole here: SEELE tells Kaworu where Adam is - in Gendo's hand - before he ever reveals himself. So it is a very perplexing question why he seems surprised to see Lilith in Terminal Dogma and not Adam. If you really want to, there's about 18 pages of discussion here. --Gwern (contribs) 23:59 23 April 2007 (GMT)
Here’s what I think, First I’m pretty sure that Kaworu does have his own soul else he’d

be an Extension of Adam instead of a Vessel. As for Armisael feeling alone, that’s probably ‘cas it can’t truly communicate with another being, even Tabris (it was attempting to become one with Rei so they Could communicate). Also I got the impression that it would be different for an Angel to merge with Adam then Lilith, as the former was supposed to happen, but Adam and Lilith were never meant to exist together.The Twilight Goddess 01:31, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

No, Kaworu can't have his own soul: Rei doesn't have her own soul either (Yui's soul is in Eva-01, of course), and Kaworu is like Rei. Further, the non-human Halls of Guf are empty - there are no souls for the Rei clones, and D&R dialogue suggests that the emptying took place during 2I, so there might not've even been a soul for Kaworu. But fortunately Adam's was becoming available at just that time.
As for merging with Adam and Lilith: the most popular understanding is that 3I and becoming as a god is a consequence of uniting the Fruits of Life and Knowledge (so Eva-01, descended from Adam, can unite with Lilith and become as god, or Kaworu, or another Angel, etc.); this is the Gendo/NERV 3I. So Kaworu merging with Adam is just returning to the source of life, and is like the SEELE 3I, except Angel + Adam and not Lilim/Humans + Lilith. --Gwern (contribs) 04:16 24 April 2007 (GMT)
Look if Kaworu didn’t have his own soul he'd be bond completely to the will of Adam, but he refused that will and instead killed himself, thus preventing 3I and the beginning of the dominance of the Angels. Also what do you mean Rei doesn’t have a soul, if that were the case when Armisael tried to merge with her it would have automatically stated 3I, it’s the spare Reis that don’t have souls that’s why they’re like thatThe Twilight Goddess 14:07, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
Who said he didn't follow Adam's will? But again, Rei has Lilith's soul, and she's not somehow bound to Lilith's will because she forgot who she was - Kaworu has the advantage of not being kept in the dark, but that doesn't mean Kaworu remembers being Adam or has to logically follow what Adam would do (do we even know that a full Adam wouldn't act like Kaworu did? I don't think so). --Gwern (contribs) 23:18 24 April 2007 (GMT)
O.K now you’re just making assumptions. First, give me one good reasons why Adam, who has had 14 of his 15 “Children” killed by humanity and two attempts to control him by same, have ANY hesitation about destroying all of humanity, Kaworu was clearly acting against the Angle’s best interest. Also if Kaworu and Rei really were there respected patrons, shouldn’t Kaworu have called Rei “Lilith” instead of “a vessel for Lilith’s soul”?The Twilight Goddess 02:30, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] EvaMonkey?

What exactly is EvaMonkey? I mean what's its history? Is it "The Onering.net of Evangelion" or what? --Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici 01:34, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Something like that. There are about 3 or 4 really good sites for doing Evangelion research, particularly in the domain of translations of stuff that just has never appeared over here or in English: the Eva-ML (mailing list) saw a lot of early stuff, and is a good archive of discussions; EvaMonkey's site (linked to above) is good for the forums - the discussions there are the best and the most informed I've found online, equal to Eva-ML at its peak but more voluminous and up to date - and is even mentioned very favorably by Carl Horn at the end of Viz's release of Volume 10 of the manga; there's Bochan_Bird's site (EvaOtaku.com? I can't really remember), which I rely on for RCB translation and song data, as well as miscellaneous stuff about Anno and other people; and there's another site which is important because its owner, Reichu, edits here sometimes and Reichu has also done the best translation of the Confidential Information (which is obviously really important) - that one is linked to in the NGE2 article.
Besides that, I don't know of many good online resources. --Gwern (contribs) 03:56 24 April 2007 (GMT)
Okay Gwern just to try and think it out, this is my ROUGH plan for Eva: I'll finish the episode guide (lot of work there) probably Friday after this one. Then...I think I'm going to try to start either an Eva Taskforce or a flat out "WikiProject Evangelion" and an Eva Portal; not so much for what we have now, but because we KNOW Rebuild is coming and will double the material, and the live action movies, if made, will be the next Star Wars/Matrix/Lord of the Rings. Then we've basically got to go around between all articles and bring them up to FA status (not that they need to be FA, just that they're good enough that they conceivably could; i.e. we don't have to change anything on them, just run maintenance if they get vandalized, etc. I've been brushing up all of the Eva articles whenever I could get a chance these past few months and I think in the past year we've made some progress. ---->The problem is...in this day and age, if we're dedicated enough, should we try to start our own new "EvangelionWiki" (like HeroesWiki and StarWarsWiki's), or piggyback it onto Wikipedia? Which would be viewed by more people? I mean when you consider the fact that this is basically what I'm doing for the next 4-5 years if the live action movies start up because of Rebuild, it is quite a difficult decision. ***You see I was a LOTR fan originally (that's why I went on "the Internet" and the problem was that it took me a while to realize that TheOneRing.net had become the "unofficial official central fansite". EvaOtaku isn't updated anymore but it's still got a glossary. Reichu actually works at EvaMonkey (I wonder why they call it that). I hung around on EvaTrivialBeing for a while but that's really just PART of EvaMonkey (I wish they'd have linked it better). At any rate if EvaMonkey opened up their own wiki guide I'd be fine to move there. -------->sorry it's just the analogy I use is that we're basically where Lord of the Rings was in 1999/early 2000, that production hasn't started yet but a handful of us fans who had read the books KNEW it would be the "next Star Wars" and planned accordingly; similarly, with Eva I want to hit the ground running. Hmmmm.....okay, how's about this: we focus on just writing up all of the Eva articles and starting and actual WikiProject Eva ("We won't let them rewrite our scenario!") ...I'll get to that next Friday I think. So we set up a proper "Eva portal" so when the first Rebuild teaser trailer airs we've got something in place. --->Then, as an analogy; Wikipedia has a good "Heroes" guide but the HeroesWiki is even better; but main Wikipedia Heroes articles have links on the bottom to the HeroesWiki articles. The idea is that Wikipedia is where the publicity is, and that's how people find the main dedicated wiki. Hmmm....okay, right now I'm going to focus on us trying to set up a Wikipedia Eva Project and Portal, and then asking EvaMonkey if they'd set up a wiki as a subsection of their website because I'd rather work with them than compete with them. I've really got to start reading up on the EvaMonkey forums more. --Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici 05:16, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
Reichu was a forum administrator, I thought. Piggybacking on WP is the best idea until AfDs start raining down like nuclear warheads; part of the reason Wookieepedia is successful (aside from, you know, dealing with a subject with vast amounts of material new and old and a large dedicated fan base dwarfing Eva's) was that the forkers waited until there was something of a SW community on WP and an already fairly comprehensive set of articles. --Gwern (contribs) 23:19 24 April 2007 (GMT)
Reichu's site is Evacommentary.com. Really I've "scoured the tubes of the Internets" and at the moment these are the only 2 big sites. Apparently Evacommentary is hosted on Evamonkey or something so they are collaborating to a point. I dunno. Look we'll figure out how to launch a dedicated Eva wiki later but at the moment we should focus on getting a portal set up. (I don't know how much of my life I want to devote to that, but when Rebuild starts, If we don't start an independent Eva wiki someone else might and it won't be as good). Meanwhile...EvaCommentary has no forums. So yeah, it looks like "EvaMonkey" is THE "equivalent of TheOneRing.net in 2000". I come there sporadically but I should make it a point to go more. --Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici 05:29, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
There's already an independent Eva wiki, which isn't doing so hot. Wikis need either communities or large information bases, and I don't think we have the former (and if we only have the latter, there's no point in forking from Wikipedia). --Gwern (contribs) 23:23 24 April 2007 (GMT)

Okay guys, we will just focus on getting Evengelion up to standards on wikipedia itself (with like a portal and junk) and then branch out if the time seems right. What does "AfD" mean? Yes, "Piggybacking on WP" is what we will to for the forseeable future. --Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici 04:47, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

"AfD" is "Articles for deletion". Willbyr (talk | contribs) 12:00, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ramiel

In the section for Ramiel, the shield used against him (it?) is from a SSTO spacecraft; however, the article for Rei I says the shield is from a Space Shuttle (I hypothesize Endeavour or Discovery, since they are last to retire; however, none of the then-4 Shuttles (Atlantis, Columbia, Discovery, Endeavour) would have survived Second Impact (I include Columbia because 2I was in 2000 and Columbia disintegrated in 2003). User:Missingno000 Saturday, 29 April 2007 : 1808 UTC

Some random person inserted that, I didn't; feel free to remove it. --Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici 18:26, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
The heat shield depicted is very different in shape from that of Space Shuttle. It reminds me of concept drawings of the X-30. The subtitles on my copy of the DVD describe it as having been built for a single-stage trans-orbital rocket. Hellbus 18:41, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
From the models produced by Bandai, on the instruction manuals, they all said S.S.T.O. HG EVA Unit Zero HG EVA Unit Zero KaiHG EVA Unit 2. I will have my hands on the official scripts by tomorrow, I will see if it says Space Shuttle there or not. Note to Missingno000, It might just be a new model not any of those you have listed. But I am pretty sure that all my sources should point to SSTO instead of Space Shuttle. MythSearchertalk 19:17, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
Oh okay, if they mention that in the stuff. --Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici 01:47, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
SSTO stands for Single Stage to Orbit, which just means a spacecraft that only uses one stage to reach earth orbit. Technically, no earth-launched SSTO has ever been built—the space shuttle uses auxiliary rockets for launch, so it is not actually a "single stage" vehicle. (There is a link for "SSTO" in the article, you know.)
On a different subject, never ever rely on toys or models for information. Toy makers are notorious for fudging things, like the Eva action figures that came with swords, despite the fact that swords never made an appearance anywhere in the show or movie. (An American example would be all those Batman action figures over the years that have no equivalent in any of the Batman comics, movies or shows.) Radioactive afikomen 15:16, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
It is a published source, thus satisfies WP:RS and WP:V. You do not understand the Japanese toy makers, Bandai IS a company that is well known for using official sources in making toys, models and such. and it is a Japanese culture to add as much official detail into the models as possible, because they can then publish official guide books on the subjects and earn more money from those. The EVA action figures came with swords, because from an official illustration in the Manga we can see Eva Unit 1 carrying one. MythSearchertalk 15:28, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
Sorry. I didn't know. Radioactive afikomen 17:48, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
You do not need to apologize, it is not something that everybody knows, I simply stated a fact that should be able to help in contributing to the article and clarified it. MythSearchertalk 19:01, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
There is a Space Shuttle Enterprise that uses half-thickness tiles... 70.55.88.11 06:17, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Types" of Angels

In vol. 9 of the manga, when Armisael begins to infect the saw that Kaworu is using, he refers to the Angel as an "encroachment type". Has this particular designation been used anywhere else in NGE-related materials? Willbyr (talk | contribs) 01:51, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Might have just been descriptive. --Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici 07:29, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
It was never mentioned in the show, the number of uses of the word type can be counted on...three or four hands and I checked each one, I'm assuming it's just a way of describing it's behaviour--Tyrfing 01:47, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

OUT OF INTEREST

Ramiel actually has 5 different cores, you can see them all when it attacked EVA 01 when the protective shild was raised to protect the him, it transforms into a cross with 4 cours on each tip of the cross with one in the centre. It happens at around 1:01:00 into the movie. Thas why it didnt die when the first shot hit the first core, but in the end all the remaining 4 cores were lined up to produce that massive beam. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.239.94.164 (talk) 06:49, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Other minor comment

With regards to one of the edits located in the Tabris section, there was a mention about the AT Field of equal strength belonging to Rei. Since the AT Field is regarded as the 'light of the soul' wouldn't the AT Fields of these two actually be part of the souls existing within them and thus belong to Adam and Lilith respectively? (I was just going to put a shorter version this in the edit history, but I changed my mind and accidentally hit Enter so ignore that meaningless edit)

I see what you’re saying, but it was Kaworu and Rei who used the fields and not the Angels so I think we should keep it as is.The Twilight Goddess 03:17, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sources to cite

As the templates at the top of the page point out, this article doesn't cite (very many) sources. I was wondering: why don't we do what the articles on Bleach do, and just start citing individual episodes and, where appropriate, the individual chapters of the manga? (Note that Bleach does this, and is not labeled as lacking sources.) I think this is an excellent idea, and would help us toward getting the NGE article to featured status. Radioactive afikomen 15:16, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

In part it wasn't done before because the episode articles have only recently begun to exist. --Gwern (contribs) 15:51 14 May 2007 (GMT)
I will have everything interwikied within a matter of hours, just hang on. However, we've never been truly able to cite what they're named after; that is "Bardiel, Angel of Hail" or something; we're never concievably going to cite this, and it's keeping this article from getting a GA rating. --Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici 15:56, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
It's going to take interviews with the Angels' designer(s) to find out exactly what went into their names, unless there's some source out there that no one's found yet. Willbyr (talk | contribs) 16:05, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

The name issue may prevent this article from getting Grade-A status, but that is beside the point. Mostly, I was thinking of citations for the descriptions of the Angels and the battles with them. (And as long as we're on the subject, there should be a paragraph somewhere in the article noting the difficulty of sourcing the Angel's names.) Radioactive afikomen 18:30, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "God" vs. "Paper" under Zeruel

Personally, I don't understand why this sentence is in the article anyway (WP:Trivia), but regardless of that fact, kami (god) and kami (paper/hair) are pronounced differently in Japanese. "God" has the accent on the first syllable, while "paper" has the accent on the second syllable. While it might still seem like a good connection to make, as a native Japanese speaker, that's not a connection that I myself would ever have made, and without a (Japanese) source to back that up, I'd be hesistant about including it in the article. --Egocentrism04 18:09, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree that the sentence shouldn't be there in the first place—it is the sort of speculation that belongs on an in-depth fanpage, not on Wikipedia. Radioactive afikomen 21:12, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
I agree it should not be there at all, I reverted it last time because it would make no sense to be there if only God was taken away. (why would it be there to tell others paper and hair are pronounced the same way?) That sentence is just a pure speculation and Original research, I am happy that people agreed on taking it away. MythSearchertalk 03:23, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Thoughts on rewriting the Adam and Lilith articles?

Although I'm saving them for last, eventually I'll get around to doing a complete rewrite of the Adam and Lilith articles, on par with what I've done to the other Angel articles so far. (Currently, these articles look like... well, like fifty different people have been picking at them.) I'm asking for your help because they are the most difficult Angels to write about (they were never featured like the other Angels were, so I don't think my standard formula for writing Angel articles will work). I also don't want to cause any edit wars by removing some prized bit of speculation. Suggestions? Radioactive afikomen 16:23, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree the articals should be rewritten mainly because i think more info on adam and liliths origins should be explained better i personally found it irrating that the show never explained straight out where they came from but rather used religious metaphors. user:jobywonkanobi 4:45, 21 May 2007
Hey, just out of curiousity, where does it ever say that both Adam and Lilith each had a respective Lance? I never thought it was implied that there were any more than one original Lance (as they always refer to it both in singular and as the true or original). Did this come out from an official source, or is someone just reading into it and putting out opinion? --The Abbott —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.198.241.62 (talk) 21:54, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
I think that's from the Classified Information in the PS2 game. Willbyr (talk | contribs) 06:17, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Where were Angels #3 and on?

The origin of Adam and Lilith is explained, and the section on Adam states that the rest of the angels were descendant from Adam. But after the 2nd impact, Adam was reduced to an embryo form, and afterwards in SEELE's control and encased in bakelite (and then given to Gendo). Where were all of these descendants for the fifteen years between the 2nd Impact and Sachiel's attack on Tokyo-3?

Or, if that's never explained, at least, do we know when the Angels were separated from Adam? That is, did the 2nd Impact somehow create them all, or did they already exist before that?

That's a major question that never got answered; at BEST, the running theory is that the "awakening" of Adam spread Angel-seeds about. But that's just conjecture. --Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici 05:26, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] DNA? What DNA?

The first paragraph of the article states that the Angels have 99.89% of the same DNA as humans. But, from what I recall during episode 3 (when Ritsuko is researching the remains of Shamhsel), she does not mention anything about DNA. (She does say something in science-babble, like "composed of both particulate and wave-form matter" and then says something about "99.89% similarity" to humans.) And what she displays on the computer screen is not DNA (which is typically displayed like a barcode) but something that resembles a mass spectrometer analysis.

This is a long and windy way of asking whether anyone can cite exactly what Ritsuko says about the "99.89% similarity" thing? (I do own the DVDs, but am unable to pull them out and check right now.) Radioactive afikomen 15:40, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

You mean something like this?(pic in pdf file after unzip) This is what DNA looks like in academic research using the spectral analysis process(and BTW, that happens to be my boss' research). I cannot cite what exactly Ritsuko says in the anime, but I am sure it exactly means The Angels' DNA is 99.89% similar to humans, I am looking at the chinese version of the manga and it says the same thing. MythSearchertalk 16:59, 29 May 2007 (UTC)\
Image:Angel spectrometer analysis (NGE).jpg
o_O Alright, so it is DNA.

I have checked with my DVDs. Ritsuko's exact quote is "composed of a type of matter characterized by both particulate and wave properties, like light." (I'm quoting the official subtitling to the original Japanese dub. I am also at a loss as to why I'm even quoting this.) Ritsuko then shows the "Angel's inherent wave pattern" (crappy screenshot of this to the right) and states "Although they are composed of a different form of matter, their actual composition, in terms of the arrangement and spacing of the pattern, falls within a 99.89% match of human genes."

In spite of the screenshot, which distinctly shows a DNA/"GATTACA" pattern, Ritsuko explicitly states that the Angels are composed of a different type of matter altogether--so much so that the computer can't even analyze it--which rules out DNA by definition; it clearly cannot be deoxyribonucleic acid. Radioactive afikomen 04:43, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

I'd say change the word DNA to genes. I was a little influenced by the title back then, the sentence states genes instead of DNA in the manga, it is just that the two words were used so much to mean a similar thing and I mistranslated the word up there. MythSearchertalk 06:32, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

DNA is DNA, whether it be human, animal, or angel. Most of you, if not all, are assuming the term DNA is in direct reference to humans, however, this is a misinterpretation. The image to the right presents the genetic sequence of an angel: C- Cytosine, G- Guanine (with every C complimented by G); A- Adenine, T- Thymine (with every A complimented by T).

DNA means deoxyribonucleic acid, if it is not composed by deoxyribonucleic acid, it is not DNA. The word used here is genes. No body here is dumb enough to think that it is related to human only, especially when a link to a research paper is given. If you read the discussion, you can see that it is composed of a type of matter not deoxyribonucleic acid. BTW, human is a type of animal. MythSearchertalk 03:44, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Genes and DNA are somewhat the same thing, biologists don't really like saying that but its generally true (DNA codes for genes which code and produce proteins) If you save genes it will still be a reference to DNA. If angels have genes they have "DNA" so to speak, although it would be more appropriate to classify is as just genetic material if composed of a different matter. The image shown here, however, shows a computer analyzation of what I assume is the angel's genetic material. The fact that it shows the nucleotides (the building blocks of DNA) means it is Angel DNA. I'll go through the series to clarify on this. The angels are a separate evolution humankind could have gone stated by Misato and the fact that humankind and the angels seemingly have a common source (not the Black and White Eggs but the ancestral beings they came from) some sort of genetic material must also be shared. Fox816

Yes, they are essentially the same thing in real life, this is anime, and if it is specifically stated to be composed of a different matter, then it is not DNA so to speak. Also, the computer screen does not necessarily show the Angel's genes in a non-DNA structure, they are just a similar structure with a different composite, just like an iron case can look exactly like an aluminium case, but it is of a different composite. MythSearchertalk 02:48, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

I tend to hear that arguement a lot, no offense, and it is true, however even though it is an anime many of the real life rules and restrictions are still applied and many of the assumptions and conclusions that are made are based on the anime following real life science or atleast some or most of it. I agree on that based on the angel's composition DNA should be ruled out and that the term genetic material is more appropriate. However, the term genes must also be ruled out as well but for the sake of being simple the term genes and DNA can be used unless GAINAX has given a term for the angel's genetic material. You can't really use the terms genes without DNA as well. It just doesn't fit.Fox816

Yes, I hear that argument a lot, mostly on something that common sense would be perfect on those situations. Like It is not necessarily 1G in anime world kinda silly arguements. and I never thought I would use it since I am pretty into the science and technology in anime, like the Gundam technology and the relationship with real-life science and tech. However, here, it is different, it is specifically stated something different than real-life is used, yet its structure is similar to human genes. Are those genes? No one knows. Are those DNA? by definition it is not, st least in real-life. It might not fit in real life to talk about genes without using DNA, but it is exactly the case they are talking about in this particular anime. BTW, in the manga GS Mikami, they talk about something called a spiritual gene, which is the main composition of a soul, that is also not DNA, and is essentially the same situation we are facing here: Genes =/= DNA in some cases in fiction. MythSearchertalk 17:37, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
My understanding of genetics was that strictly speaking the term genes doesn't actually refer to DNA at all, but merely the unit of heredity - for example, in humans genes would be alleles constructed of DNA, but for HIV, it might be alleles in RNA instead, or for programs it might be bytes, or bits, or functions or other things like that, so it'd be valid to speak of mental genes and so on. --Gwern (contribs) 21:15 7 June 2007 (GMT)
It's the scienctist in me that doesn't want to part the logic, but alas it must. What makes me gravitate most about Eva is the use of biology and such in their work. Gundam tech is very nice, but I'm more organic. DNA sequencing codes for the genes, the alleles, proteins, etc... Genes and DNA are somewhat interchangable but scientists don't really -want- to use necessarily say it in that manner on the basis that genes can come from other sources of genetic material, the other being RNA. Usually if you ask a biologist or someone of that area in molecular and genetics, their face will tighten up and they'll sway back and forth and feel irritated because in a sense it is yet it really isn't and they don't want to say it like that. Fox816 01:57, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
That is not a good sign, science is an objective thing, and it should have nothing to do with personal feelings. This is going off topic, I guess I should stop now. MythSearchertalk 07:05, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Note on Tabris

The note mentioning how Kaworu appears earlier in the manga is unnecessary. First off, the current synopsis of Tabris does not state at what point he arrived, it is general enough to apply to both the anime and the manga. Secondly, it belongs in the Kaworu Nagisa article, as it deals with Kaworu, not Tabris. (Strictly speaking, "Tabris" did not appear until he hijacked Unit-02. Anything prior to that describes Kaworu.) Radioactive afikomen 04:46, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Help with citations

Can someone eliminate the redundant references? I tried to, doing that thing that lets you cite the same source multiple times, and what kept happenning was a bunch of code appeared in the References section, with either part of the Adam article disappearing or part of the Lilim article, depending on how I tried to tweak things.

By the way, how do you all like my rewrite of the main section? (I'm so shameless, I know. ^_^) Radioactive afikomen 05:36, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Overall, I'd say you did a good job. I might have some quibbles with wording, but that'd be about it. If...and that's a big IF...I get time this weekend, I'll go through the article and work on the references; we've got company for the weekend so if no one else does it, it may be next week before I can get to it. Willbyr (talk | contribs) 12:21, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
I agree that the 'citation needed' things need to go. A lot of them are asking for citation on things that some charactrs just say almost in passing in the show, and unless you get a voice clip, may be hard to cite while still being fact (or at least an extremely widely accepted belief).--Amantetosca 20:00, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Adam - Two Appearances in the anime?

I'm a bit confused about Adam in the series itself. In the article it says "Ryoji Kaji delivered the embryonic Adam, encased in dura-bakelite, to Commander Gendo Ikari." First of all, in the subtitled version that I have Gendo says "This is the first human being. . ." I'd be willing to bet this is wrong, but my confusion doesn't end there.

In episode 15, when Misato catches Kaji snooping around, Kaji shows her Adam, which is by no means embryonic, and pinned to the wall. If Adam wasn't planted into Gendo's hand, I would assume that Adam was somehow developed into the state he is shown in this episode.

I actually don't remember Gendo planting Adam in his hand, but I may just not have gotten that far yet (this time through). Maybe this is contributing to my confusion. Can anyone clarify this for me?

Chronic Addict 23:56, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

The thing on the wall is Lilith. --Gwern (contribs) 00:17 15 June 2007 (GMT)
Misato mistakes it for Adam. It's a big white creature (like Adam before he was shrunk) and I'm guessing she didn't get a good look at Adam during Second Impact before Dr. Katsuragi closed the door on the capsule she was in. Hellbus 01:10, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

As for the first point. I assume you mean the bit from the end of episode eight?

KAJI:
It's already restored itself this far. It's frozen inside dura-bakelite, but it's still alive. Without a doubt, this is the keystone of the Human Instrumentality Project, isn't it?
IKARI:
Correct. This is the first human being. Adam.

Human is defined rather loosely in Evangelion, it includes the Angels Evangelions Lilim and the enigmatic entities known as the First Ancestral Race, which is only referred to in the show as "someone, who was not us." --Tyrfing 01:58, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Are we done yet?

Aside from the unending job of reverting poorly conceived/executed edits, minor polishing, and long-term "eventuallies" (eventually, someone will fix the redundant references; eventually, someone will provide a source for the Angels' names, etc.), is this article finally finished? Radioactive afikomen 06:07, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

I guess at least we could remove the unref tag since there are plenty of reference in the article already, if anyone wants more ref, they should add them into the specific parts of the article. MythSearchertalk 08:13, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Shamshel and Angel Kiss

Regarding this topic: One of the volumes of the NGE manga has Angel Kiss in the back. Is this just the 3- or 4-panel strip, or is there more to it? If there's more, is there a website somewhere that depicts it that can be linked? I ask because what's depicted in the manga is nowhere close to erotic, despite what the note in the article says. Willbyr (talk | contribs) 04:57, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Same question here, I know which one you mean, it is the knitting a scafe for Sachiel one, right? MythSearchertalk 08:45, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
Yes, that's the one. Willbyr (talk | contribs) 12:23, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Name origin

Got a new referece site, added in ref, learnt how to use ref name :) MythSearchertalk 11:08, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Well that's good but I don't know how it not being in English will affect stuff. --Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici 13:24, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
huh? I don't exactly understand what you are trying to say here. A direct quote of Japanese official TV guide is not enough to affect what? The verifiable page requires non-English sources to be listed with the original language for others to verify the translation, it should be good enough for simple names that everyone can copy and paste it in an auto-translator. If you mean sources of what the name really means, I guess we could restructure the sentences to make it so that it is something like: XXiel, the Angel of YZ instead of the current name for Angel of YZ. MythSearchertalk 16:45, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
I JUST FOUND IT FINALLY: the name references (what they are the Angels of) are included in the info booklets that come with the Platinum Edition DVD's. That's our source. --Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici 21:07, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
Should be the same as what I linked to yesterday. MythSearchertalk 02:23, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Listing Lilim as an Angel

I don't care to start a debate as to whether Lilim is an Angel, but this article contradicts itself.

The article defines Angels as having specific properties:

All Angels produce AT-Fields of varying strengths, and all are identified as "blood type: blue". They all possess S² engines ...

But then explicitly states that mankind is an Angel:

The eighteenth Angel, Lilim, is mankind itself.

Unless I'm mistaken, humans do not have blood type blue or S² engines. So... something is wrong. ~ Booya Bazooka 18:37, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Did you catch the last paragraph in the introductory section, and its corresponding reference? Willbyr (talk | contribs) 21:09, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
Yes, I did. However, the contradiction stands. If we're set on the decision that Lilim counts as an Angel, then our definition of Angel is wrong. ~ Booya Bazooka 21:22, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps mankind as a whole does have an S2 engine? What way can we fix the contradiction? We know that even humans produce AT-Fields, and that human DNA is very similar to the Angel's "Blood Type" or something like that... perhaps we do have Blood Type: Blue? Then the only question is the S2 engine, but remember that Lilim is mankind as a whole, not each human individually, I don't think... Hard to say, hard to say. -JC 22:06, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
I did a bit of rewriting on the section, hopefully this takes us a little ways toward getting this straightened out. Willbyr (talk | contribs) 23:18, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
Booya, you're assuming that all the pieces of Eva work together. It's not surprising that since the storyline was constantly evolving (remember how all the Angels were originally going to descend from the Moon, and in the ending Shinji was going to have to kill Rei or something) there wind up being inconsistencies. In the TV line, I don't think there is an inconsistency. Man comes from Lilith, lacking the S2 engine (fruit of life) but having science/EVAs (fruit of knowledge); thus EVA-01's absorption of the S2 engine unites the two lineages and two fruits, undoing the metaphorical fall from Eden. It's only if you try to reconcile this with the Confidential Information or the movies' different setup where man is the 18th angel that the TV schema no longer makes sense. --Gwern (contribs) 02:02 2 August 2007 (GMT)
Yes... this is true. Eva is crazy. I guess we can't expect perfect coherency. Perhaps we could just change the overview paragraph, though, to note that the description excludes Lilim? Although I don't want to clutter the summary with my pedantry. ~ Booya Bazooka 02:30, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, Humanity evolved from the 18th angel with is either lilith or Adam. So in a sense, humanity is, but not really. I agree totally that Evangelion does not fit together perfectly. However, it is a good series.70.177.115.38 (talk) 20:45, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

It's called "metaphor", people. Humans and Angels are the same basic beings with different parents. --71.82.222.44 (talk) 08:32, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Images

I've removed the "too many non-free images" template, as the vast majority of images have been replaced by refs to sites w/images and information about the Angels. As far as the remaining images go, I wouldn't mind seeing them stay, at least until they can be treated the same as the other pics. Willbyr (talk | contribs) 04:45, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

I preferred it with the images in place, myself. Hellbus 17:41, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
Look, you're up against obsessive-compulsive image counters that can barely pass a Turing test. The solution would be to get a few images that show many Angels. Also, not all of us have flash, so perhaps there's a more suitable site to use - perhaps Gainax. --129.241.151.140 22:15, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
Honestly, I liked having the images. However, the Foundation's made it clear that such liberal use of non-free images isn't tolerated anymore. That includes trying to splice multiple images together. I used the ADV site link to replace the images because it's the best compromise between good pics and info about the Angels that I could find, not to mention that ADV is directly connected to the Evangelion franchise. If someone can find a site that doesn't use Flash and has equally good images of the Angels, by all means use it as the ref instead of the ADV site...although I have to admit that I'm puzzled that people wouldn't have Flash on their computers. *shrug* Willbyr (talk | contribs) 23:19, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
Having two images per angel might have been a bit excessive, but having and image of each angel is within the policy - don't let anybody convince you otherwise. You're making an encyclopedia here, not a fan website. Please put back as many images as needed to identify the angels. --129.241.151.140 04:06, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
No, it's actually never been within policy, it's just that Wikipedia has not really sunk its collective teeth into enforcing the policy until recently. See User:Durin/Fair use overuse explanation for details, especially this section, which specifically addresses "list of.." articles, and by association any other article which could be considered a "list of..." article. This article and Evangelion (mecha) definitely qualify, in theme if not in name. Willbyr (talk | contribs) 05:25, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

*drums fingers* I'll leave the Sandalphon pic for now, as I'm assuming there was a good reason for putting in back in the article, but I'm culling any more that are put in. Willbyr (talk | contribs) 03:15, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Is there any reason to keep image of ships in Gaghiel's section? L-Zwei 04:41, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

I haven't removed them yet because I wanted to leave a visual reference to the information about their designs until some kind of outside reference to them relating to the series is found, as was done with the images of the Angels themselves...unless someone gets snippy about the # of non-free images, in which case they may have to be removed anyway. Willbyr (talk | contribs) 05:30, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
Well, I just feel it weird that we keep two ships images while non for Angel itself. L-Zwei 05:35, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
It is a little strange, I agree. They won't be there forever, I just haven't had a chance to do any digging on that particular issue, as I've been concentrating on trying to find visual references for the items in the glossary article. Willbyr (talk | contribs) 12:23, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
They could be removed, provided that not-orphan tags are put on them. The picture of the ships on the map is text-linked from the articles on the two ships, and the picture of the ships in the water is text-linked from the talk page for USS Kentucky. I'll make the necessary adjustments. Hellbus 23:03, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
Did we have to get rid of all of the images? Admittedly, many images aren't fundamental to the readers' understanding of the Angels appearance. Tabris already has his own picture in the Kaworu Nagisa article, Sandalphon is explicitly described as looking like Anomalocaris, Ramiel is just a big blue octahedron, Armisael is a double-helixed torus, and Lilim are just human beings. Iruel looks like a slime mold, so it isn't particularly photogenic anyways. Many others can be adequately described with words. But still, one or two pictures would be nice. Specifically, I'm thinking of Sachiel, whose is appearance is both iconic enough to the series and also undescribably bizarre that not having a picture of it would arguably deal a significant disservice to the readers. --Join us, comrade!RA talk stalk 22:09, 28 October 2007

The article needs atleast a few images, to show it's subject!  Doktor  Wilhelm  15:20, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Actually, the article has survived without images for several months now. Willbyr (talk | contribs) 18:08, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
In addition, the beginning of each Angel's section links to an image. Hellbus (talk) 22:33, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
I don't really see the point in having to click two things in order to see an image, just to know what the heck something is going on about (it not in the begining)! Plus it is a usual part of all Wikipedia articles; to have atleast one image to show/describe the content of the article (the same goes for all articles without images)!  Doktor  Wilhelm  22:54, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
Any images would by definition be fair use images, since no free version exists or could conceivably be created. There were originally images in the article, which were removed per discussion above. Linking to images is the best compromise. Hellbus (talk) 03:32, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

And now we have a boring imageless article, courtesy of our deletionist friends.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 04:56, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Ramiel actually has 5 different cores, you can see them all when it attacked EVA 01 when the protective shild was raised to protect the him, it transforms into a cross with 4 cours on each tip of the cross with one in the centre. It happens at around 1:01:00 into the movie. Thas why it didnt die when the first shot hit the first core, but in the end all the remaining 4 cores were lined up to produce that massive beam. —Preceding

[edit] Adam vs Eva abilities

Can we say with certainty that Adam would have the same (non-mechanical) abilities as the Evangelions?

unsigned comment added by 220.239.94.164 (talk) 06:48, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes and no. There are several confounding factors for such a question: the Evangelions' descent from Lilith, the whole Tree of Life/S^2 Engine vs. Tree of Knowledge issue, and the Secret Files' Seed of Life comparison of Adam and Lilith. --Gwern (contribs) 00:58 6 June 2008 (GMT)