Talk:Andrew Moray

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[edit] Point of this?

Why is this underneath the picture of Wallace in Aberdeen: "A statue of William Wallace in Aberdeen, a Scottish city with which he has no proven connexion"

Not only is it spelt wrong it seems irrelevent. No proven connection? Wallace was guardian of Scotland and Aberdeen is a Scottish city....seems like a strong enough connection to me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.87.17.34 (talk) 01:22, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

The point is that there is not any evidence that Wallace ever visited Aberdeen. There is a claim that he attacked the city and burned the harbour, but it all rests on Blind Harry's poem, and that is notoriously unreliable. So there is no historically proven connexion (and, yes, you can spell the word this way), hence my comment. I am seeking to draw arrention to the fact that that there is no statue to Andrew Moray in a city he would have certainly visited and is likely to have liberated. Jaygtee (talk) 19:02, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Guardian of Scotland?

Andrew de Moray, as far as I am aware,was never appointed Guardian of Scotland, a title extended to Wallace only late in 1297. No doubt Moray would have been named as joint Guardian-just as he was joint leader with Wallace of the army-but he died of the wounds he sustained at Stirling Bridge. Rcpaterson 22:28, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

I believe there is in existence 2 copies of a letter sent by Moray and Wallace to the merchant towns of Germany shortly after Stirling Bridge. They signed it as Guardians of Scotland by consent of the realm on behalf of King John. PatGallacher 16:24, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

From memory I believe the letters to the Hanseatic towns were signed by Moray and Wallace as 'Leaders of the army of the Kingdom of Scotland and of the realm'. The first reference to the Guardianship as such comes in a charter to one Alexander Scrymgeour dated 29 March 1298, where Wallace appears as 'Sir William Wallace, Guardian of the Kingdom of Scotland and General of the Army...' I know that history has been unjust to Moray, and I have no doubt that he would have been appointed as joint Guardian if he had lived; but on a pure point of information the actual office, as far as I can tell, was held by Wallace alone. Rcpaterson 23:21, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

I am have to agree with this comment: there is no surviving evidence that Andrew Moray was appointed to the Guardianship, tho he certainly was more than adequately qualified to hold that office. --Jaygtee 16:27, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

We ought to find a way of disambiguating this person and his son, but is Andrew Moray and Sir Andrew Moray the best way of doing it? How about Andrew Moray and Andrew Moray junior? PatGallacher 22:53, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Death dates can be used, as in Andrew Moray (d. 2006). You wouldn't need to do it for all, just the less important Andrew Morays. Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 23:11, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

You will find the article on the son under Sir Andrew Murray. The name had metamorphosed from De Moravia to Moray and finally to Murray. Andrew Murray and Sir Andrew Murray, if you like; but please, please no 'junior': unhistorical, un-Scottish and horribly trivial! Rcpaterson 23:19, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Flemish descent?

Can anyone point me to proof that Moray was descended from a Flemish noble? I know that his anscestor, Freskyn, was given estates at Duffus in Moray by King David I as a reward for helping to depose the mormaer. Other Flemish nobles were attributed by the term "Flandrensis" in charters, but Freskyn was never referred to as such.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Billreid (talk • contribs) 18/10/2006.

[edit] Trivia

Some very dubious content has been added under the heading of Trivia. This identifies Moray with a character in Braveheart named Morney. This identification is at best specious, trading solely on a very dubious similarity in the names. There is, in my opinion, no merit in this addition, as there is nothing in Morney's conduct with could even be identified with Andrew de Moray. Indeed, if anything Morney could be best identified with the 'Red' Comyn. I think that this identification adds absolutely nothing to the article, which has been improved significantly recently. I propose to delete this reference unless someone can suggest why it should be retained --Jaygtee 12:55, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

OK, it's gone. But if anyone's really that interested, I've posted it below:

Trivia

Jaygtee 23:40, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Note on the etymology of the name Murray

There is some information in the main article under this heading realting to evolution of the name Murray. I'm not sure why it was tagged on here, but I think that it is a little out of context in an article about a Scottish mediaeval personality. I propose, therefore, to delete it, unless someone wants to post a valid reason that it should be retained. I'll leave this option open for the next ten days or so. --Jaygtee 22:23, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Finally removed:Jaygtee (talk) 23:14, 18 May 2008 (UTC)


Murray is a common variation of the word Moray, an anglicisation of the Medieval Gaelic word Muireb (or Moreb); the b here was pronounced as v, hence the Latinization to Moravia. These names denote the district on the south shore of the Moray Firth. Murray is actually a direct transliteration of how Scottish people pronounce the word Moray.

Murray is no longer used for the geographical area, but it became the commonest form of the surname, especially among Scottish emigrants, to the extent that the surname Murray is now much more common than the original surname Moray.

[edit] WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 22:09, 9 November 2007 (UTC)