Talk:Andreas de Moravia

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[edit] Moray family

I've been searching around for proof that the Morays were decended from Flemish origins without success. --Billreid 11:37, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Depends on what you want in the way of proof. Beyond-reasonable-doubt proof is out, but Richard Oram accepts they were: David I, pp. 104–105 makes Flemish Freskin the ancestor of the de Moravias/Murrays. Likewise Geoffrey Barrow, Kingdom of the Scots, p. 258, makes Freskin the Fleming ancestor of the Murrays and Sutherlands. If you need fuller citations, drop me a note. Angus McLellan (Talk) 15:55, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
Remeber that "de Moravia" just means "of Muireb" (Moray), which is a big place. Anyone from Muireb in another province of Scotland can easily be styled "de Moravia". Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 18:13, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
Yes I've no problem with Freskyn being the originator of the Morays but each book I've read restates that Freskyn was Flemish but none give the proof of origin - unlike other Flemish nobles that were identified by the description "Flandrensis" when given title to lands. I've written up the article on Duffus Castle with the bit on Freskyn who first built it and explain this. He was a land owner in Lothian and so feel its much more likely that he was an anglo-saxon from that area. Another book I came across states that he may have been a Scot/assimilated southern pict. Billreid 09:38, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Freskin's name is Flemish, that's why everyone says he is Flemish. See Barrow, "The Beginnings of Military Feudalism" in Barrow (ed.) The Kingdom of the Scots, 2nd Ed. (2003), p. 252, n. 16. Another family, the Douglases, seem to be of Flemish origin, having names like Arkenbald and Freskin. The Douglases were landowners in Lanarkshire, but that doesn't mean they were Britons or Scots. Lothian had lots of continentals settled on it, but it was very rare (though not unknown) for these early Scottish kings to grant lands to Anglo-Saxons. Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 11:21, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
BTW, thanks for your rewording of the Duffus Castle section, much better. I see the book you are quoting is of much more recent vintage than mine (Gray, James: Sutherland and Caithness in Saga-Time or, The Jarls and The Freskyns, 1922) and so is probably based on much more recent research. I've been basing my stuff on this book and in particular the following passages:

Freskyn, probably about 1130 or earlier, had built this castle on the northern estate, comprising the parish of Spynie near Elgin and other extensive lands in Moray, which had been given to him in addition to his southern territories of Strabrock, now Uphall and Broxburn in Linlithgowshire, which he already held from the Scottish king. Freskyn was thus no Fleming, but a lowland Pict or Scot, as the tradition of his house maintains,[1] and he was a common ancestor of the great Scottish families of Atholl, Bothwell, Sutherland, and probably Douglas. No member of the Freskyn family is ever styled "Flandrensis" in any writ.

And .....

The first four generations of the Freskyn family seem to be also clearly proved in one line of a grant by William the Lion to Gaufrid Blundus, burgess of Inverness, of 2nd May (year omitted) which is attested “Willelmo filio Freskin Hugone filio suo et Willelmo filio ejus,” which is strange Latin, but embraces all four generations. It is quoted in the New Spalding Club’s Records of Elgin, p. 4, as from Act Parl. Scot, vol. 1, p. 79. The Charter is dated at Elgin probably near the end of the twelfth century, when William Mac-Frisgyn, Hugo, and William of Sutherland were all alive. Not a single member of the family was, as every Fleming was, styled “Flandrensis” in any charter or writ, and Fretheskin [as he was also known] is probably a Gaelic name, of which the latter part may mean “knife” or “dagger.” The name does not mean Flemish or Frisian.

So, I'm off to the library tomorrow to get my hands on your book. --Billreid 15:32, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] References

  1. ^ Family of Kilravoch, p. 61. Robertson, Early Kings, ii, 497, note