Talk:André the Giant/Archive

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7 Feet 1.5 Inches Is Andre's Measured Peak Height  

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Cashisclay 03:05, 4 October 2006 (UTC)03:03, 4 October 2006 (UTC)23:54, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Meltzer only said in his first book that Andre was at most 6 foot 11. In his second book he cited the measurement. I have gone over the Wilt Chamberlain photo quite thoroughly before, if you cared to read the earlier arguements. Yes he did print the photo in his newsletter in 1984 but that's one photo. Meltzer compiled other information as well. Chuck Wepner said when he fought Andre in 77, he told reporters that Andre was 6'9" and he didn't make his living off of rumours for dirtsheets. When legitimate sportswriters would report on Andre and when other athletes like basketball players saw him, they all said he was around 6'9" to 6'10". He thought he was taller before and then changed his mind later when he took in all the evidence. Sounds perfectly fine to me.

If anything, the main selling point of the first book was the Owen Hart obituary, not some sort of controversy over Andre's real height. Like I said before, many people already knew he really wasn't over seven feet tall, through the whole article he tried to peel off the legends and the kayfabe and reveal the real almost tragic person. The fact that Meltzer was not personally involved makes it more likely that he would not try to keep kayfabe and say the truth. This, "He did it to sell books" doesn't really makes sense since the book had no publicity and the Wrestling Observer is not meant for the casual fans one would be trying to attract with a sensationalist story. Darren Jowalsen 05:06, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Andre Was Over 7 Feet At His Peak

How could anyone possibly say that Andre was the same height in 1969 that he was at Wrestlemania 3 . They must need glasses. Look at the pictures they don't lie if he was 6' 10 at Wrestlemania 3 then he was at least 7' 1 in 1969 or early 1970's. People lose height with age its a fact of life. Also Andre had several surgery's on his back and ankle which would cause him to lose height and the fact that he slouched more later in life due to excessive growth. The pictures are there compare them with others and see the height difference from the 1960's or 1970's than the late eighties it's a pretty significant difference . Also notice that Andre is well over a foot taller than everybody else in all the pictures. Out of all of them people someone has gotta be at least 6 feet tall. I proved my comments I provided the links but noone else seemed to have proved there's by going by hearsy and half-truths. You say sport writers who when where.Show the links that prove otherwise. It never happened. The only account of the 6 10 measurement is talk and there is no proof of the measurement ever taking place. Andre would never let someone measure him if he was under 7 feet tall it would ruin his career. Someone started the rumors backstage because Andre was being billed as 7' 4 or 7' 5 when he really was 7' 1.5 . Andre was over 7 feet the proof is there to view.Cashisclay 06:01, 4 October 2006 (UTC) 05:55, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

If Andre died at the age of 46 yrs and weighed over 500 lbs and measured 6ft 10 at death, he was most likely an inch or two taller as a young man without as much weight and spinal compression. I bet Andre was a true Seven footer in his 20's and 30's as all indications seem to show.

IT SHOWS ON THIS VERY SITE UNDER "LIST OF FAMOUS TALLEST MEN" THAT ANDRE WAS 7 FEET SO IT SHOULD SAY 7 FEET ON HIS PAGE

It also say's it's an acknowledged fact that his height is disputed and to see this page, which quotes the only time he was measured.Halbared 18:51, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

LOOK AT THE PHOTOS LISTED ABOVE THEY SHOW A MUCH TALLER NON SLOUCHED OVER VERSION OF ANDRE . THERE IS NO WAY ANYONE CAN SAY HE IS NOT TALLER IN THESE PICTURES THAN IN THE WRESTLEMANIA ERA WHEN ANYONE CAN SEE THE NOTICABLE HEIGHT DIFFERENCE. THIS PAGE SHOULD READ 7' 1 AS PEAK HEIGHT 6' 10 WWF ERA. THE ONLY THING PEOPLE SEEM TO BE GOING BY IS AN ALLEDGED MEASUREMENT . WHERE'S THE PROOF THIS MEASUREMENT TOOK PLACE . THERE IS NONE . IT DID NOT TAKE PLACE . THEREFORE IT IS HEARSAY. OTHER WRESTLING JOURNALISTS PEGGED HIM AT 7' 1 OR 7' 2 SUCH AS MIKE MOONEYHAM WHICH IS STATED ABOVE. THESE SOURCES ARE JUST AS LEGIT AS MELTZER. WHAT JUST BECAUSE IT WAS ALLEDGED IN A MELTZER'S BOOK. THERE IS NO PROOF IT EVER ACTUALLY TOOK PLACE. IF SO PROVE IT OR CHANGE THE PAGE TO A PEAK HEIGHT OF AT LEAST 7' OR 7' 1.5. ONE PERSON ALLEDGED THIS MEASUREMENT AND MANY OTHERS SAY HE WAS OVER 7' FEET I PROVED OTHERS WHO KNEW ANDRE SAID HE WAS OVER 7 FEET AND HIS MANAGER DID MEASURE HIM AT 7' 1.5 IN THE 1970'S WHICH HE STATED IN AN INTERVIEW. I PROVED MY POINT I PROVIDED THE INFORMATION WHICH CAME DIRECTLY FROM PEOPLE CLOSE TO ANDRE AND THE PICTURES ARE THERE ABOVE FOR ALL TO VIEW. HE WAS FOR SURE OVER 7 FEET TALL...Cashisclay 20:23, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

I have yet to see any citation for that manager quote. It's obvious we aren't going to reach a consensus here. So, how a bout we do what I was thinking about a while before where we have a section that discusses what his height is and we have both sides. However, I want some citation on that manager quote.Darren Jowalsen 02:48, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

This sounds to be a very resonable solution to this dispute. I will try to find some citation on the manager quote and anyone else who has the citation would you please post it on this page. This seems to be a very disputed topic as the discussion page is much longer than the Article itself.(lol)Cashisclay 00:01, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

HERE IS SOME PROOF THAT ANDRE WAS TALLER THAN THE BIG SHOW WHO IS LISTED AS 7 FEET TALL ON THIS SITE.

From Jim Duggan shoot interview;

Wrestling Andre the Giant- He first wrestled him in Hawaii. Great guy. If Andre didn’t like you, it wasn’t a good thing. “Paul Wight, The Giant, is a big, well proportioned, man. Andre was a GIANT.

http://thesmartmarks.com/artman/publish/article_1225.shtml

Another shoot interview with Bobby Heenan;

Steveski asked for Heenan’s thoughts on Andre The Giant. Heenan said that Andre was a huge attraction, being all of the 7 foot 5 inches that the WWF said he was. Steveski then asked about the Big Show, in so much as wondering why the Big Show isn’t as big a star. Heenan referenced Andre, saying that everybody feared Andre. Concerning the Big Show, Heenan said that Wight is just another big guy. Furthermore, Heenan said that when Andre went to an airport, all eyes were on him the whole time. With Paul Wight, not as many people notice him.Cashisclay 05:19, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Here is a cite and proof that Andre was over 7 feet tall at his peak height. Wrestling Journalist Mike Mooneyham who is a very respected by his readers and a very experienced journalist cites that Andre was 7 feet 2 inches at his peak. Also he was not trying to sell books when he made this quote like Meltzer was which makes his claim more legitimate. He is not protecting Kayfabe. This is how he makes his living which makes it more legit. He states that Andre who was being billed at 7'4 or 7'5 was really 7'2. Andre's height now should be changed to 7 feet 2 inches for peak height or at least the 7 feet 1.5 inches that his manager stated to have measured him at. The proof is here now the height should be changed due to overwhelming facts. There are more facts leading to 7'1 or 7'2 at his peak than anything else and this site is supposed to be based on facts. http://www.mikemooneyham.com/pages/viewfull.cfm?ObjectID=C3BAC431-2ED0-4320-9135E00CBA51350CCashisclay 04:30, 18 October 2006 (UTC) Cashisclay 04:25, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Meltzer would never print something he didn't believe himself without making it clear to the reader he didn't believe it. There was really no scandal he was trying to push with saying Andre was 6'10", Chuck Wepner was telling that to people in the late seventies. Both Mooneyham and Meltzer make their money reporting on wrestling, I see no reason why Mooneyham trumps Meltzer. Both sides of the story should go into the article. Darren Jowalsen 05:13, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

All right, here's a rough draft of what I'm thinking about, we'll add citations and accent marks later:

There has been much speculation and debate over the true height of Andre. Jim Duggan and Bobby Heenan maintain that his kayfabe height was correct. Dave Meltzer, a wrestling journalist wrote in his book Tributes that Chuck Wepner, who faced Andre in a boxer vs. wrestler match in 1977 told reporters Andre was 6 ft 10 in. In Meltzer's second book, Tributes II, Meltzer claims Andre was measured at 6 ft 9 3/4 in 1974, at the age of twenty-four. Mike Mooneyham, another wrestling journalist maintained in his obituary of Andre in 1994 that Andre was 7 ft 2 in at his peak.

How about that?Darren Jowalsen 05:33, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

I have just read this, I think that wording acceptable. Where do you want to put it?Halbared 08:47, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

This is starting to sound better. In the statistics portion it should state 7' 2 peak and 6' 10 wwf era. Also it should mention the manager quote. He lost height later in life due to back surgeries slouching and curving of his spine due to excessive weight gain which was very noticable. If he was 6' 10 at Wrestlemania 3 than he was well over 7 feet at his peak height. Don't forget that Meltzer condradicted himself by saying that Andre was 6' 11.5 in the 1984 Wilt picture while Mooneyham stayed with his word. Meltzer is also known for just printing anything and has had some wrestlers call him on it. Who's to say Meltzer's source is legit. Maybe someone told him wrongful information it has happened before. So it should state in statistics 7'2 peak and 6'10 wwf era would be the most legit way to say it. Also Lord Alfred Hayes stated that Andre was well over 7'feet tall in the A&E Biography as well as Andre's brother and other wrestlers have all stated he was over 7 feet tall.Cashisclay 06:36, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

You know, you can stick with the wrong word sometimes ;). I've said all I wanted to say about Meltzer, I trust him on this, that is not to say I trust with everything, especially not Lucha information. Just find some citations on those other guys and we'll put them in. I've been wanting to really revamp this article and possibly get it up to good article standards and getting more citations on this page is a step in the right direction.Darren Jowalsen 15:00, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

So far nothing has been shown to show Andre over 7 feet. The manager quote so far is unsubstantiated. There is no evidence that Andre lost more than 3 inches in height, the pic from the Conan film shows him standing quite straight at a time where me may have weighed 450 lb. Meltzer also does not contradict himself. He states that Andre could have been 6 ft 11 in in the Conan pic, but the only time that Andre was measured for certain was in 1970. This is not a contradiction but an acknowledgement that he was only measured medically once as far as we know. Melzter is an investigative reporter who has spent I think 30 years in the business trying to find the facts behind the wrestlers kayfabe, not to mention that also the sports commentators also viewed Andre at not more than 6 ft 10 in during the Wepner fight. Personally Darren I would leave it unless some new evidence comes up.Halbared 18:27, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

There has for sure been new evidence brought to this site and it is cited to view yourselves. If we are trying to get the facts straight it all has to be mentioned and statistics should read 7' 2 peak and 6' 10 WWF era and all stories should be mentioned There is alot of talk yet noone else is proving anything. I have already cited several people on the over 7 ' quote but you have not provided any except for the Meltzer quote and how can you possibly say he doesn't contradict himself when he states two different heights and lets not forget he rounded down Wilt's height just so he didn't have to say Andre was 7' feet tall and Andre is not standing as straight as Wilt. Andre's slouches forward a bit and Wilt is standing straight with his chest sticking outward.Wilt looks a little taller because he has longer legs by the time you reach the top of their heads there ain't much difference and Wilt is wearing a huge wig and this photo is 1984 Andre had already visibly lost some height. There is more proof here towards the 7' plus claim than the one 6' 10 quote that was contradicted by Meltzer himself and was never proven and to say Andre never visibly lost height is just not true. The pics of a younger Andre show a taller Andre. It is also a known fact that you lose height with age and add the surgey's and slouching and curving of the spine because of excesssive weight gain and he would be taller before all this. If your spine is curving how could you possibly not lose height especially when alot of Andre's height was in his upper body. My father was 6'3 now he is only 6'0 and that's a doctors measurement. If you think otherwise you are being totally skeptical. Also what makes your claim any more legit than the ones I cited. Mike Mooneyham had nothing to gain by this quote and he has access to the same info as Meltzer and if he had heard about this measurement he would have published it himself because he also has been around a long time and makes a living off these types of things. Also the wrestlers themselves state that Andre was taller than the Big Show who is 7 feet tall and these facts are cited above and any more I get I will add . As for the Wepnar fight Andre dwarfs Wepnar even Wepnar's manager said that Andre made Wepnar a big man to in his eyes look like a baby. Andre has at least 6 or 7 inches on the 6'6 Wepnar. Finally how would Meltzer get this information when medical records are completly confidential which makes this sound more and more like a backstage rumour and not at all credible. There is no way he could get that information from a doctor and I'm certain Andre didn't quote this so where is the proof. The page should say he was allegedly measured not legitimately because a doctor can't release that kind of infomation which makes it second hand news. SHOW THE PROOF OR CHANGE THE PEAK HEIGHT.Cashisclay 19:32, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Nothing has been shown yet, to show Andre stood over 7 feet. The statistics shouldn't read 7 ft 2 in because that still rests on only one remark by a trainer, the origin of which is not known right now. Read what is written, it is not a contradiction to estimate someones height (which you yourself have done as well) and then to state the only time he was actually measured. I emailed Dave about this because I would like to know where the measurement came from. This was his full response. He was measured in France legit for a match by a commission. Not excessive in detail;o), but quite clear. Email yourself for your own answer.Halbared 08:31, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Show the proof of this measurement. Doctors or a commission can not release that type of information and especially not to a dirt sheet writer. Mike Mooneyham stated he was about 7' 2 his word is just as good as Meltzer's. SO Meltzer's information had to be second hand news. I also provided facts that wrestlers stated in shoot interviews that Andre was taller than the Big Show and they have no reason to lie especially Jim Duggan who has worked with both of them. You are supposed to go by the facts and your facts are very tainted and it seems you don't know much about the wrestling buisness at all. I provided several cited facts to back up my stance but you provide nothing and even in light of news facts that are backed up you continue to talk about something that Meltzer had no way of obtaining first hand. This is why alot of people don't think this site's information is very credible. I provided proof and you have provided nothing. Did you even read the cited articles. I guess not. Also Darren is planning on changing the article due to the new cited facts but Halbared keeps changing back it and he don't even know nothing about the account. I've done much research on this matter and provided new facts and I believe the article should be changed to tell the whole story.Cashisclay 16:42, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Melzter at the time was a published author, had been for years. Also there is the other evidence such as the similar height To Bigcat and the attention of legit sports writers from the 70's. Ppl who did not need to protect kafaybe. The facts aren't tainted, you just find them awkward and don't like them because they show Andre to be shorter than his billed height. Which was very normal for wrestlers back then. A good example is Blackjack Lanza who admits to being 6 ft 4 in, but was billed at 6 ft 9 in. The quote's origin remains dubious, is it on the Moonyham site? Where is it's citation? We still have as well as the measurement, the comments of legit sports writers, the fights with Big Cat etc.Halbared 08:39, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

For starters it is on Mike Mooneyham's site and it is also cited on this very talk page. Also read the Jim Duggan shoot which is also cited on this page he is not protecting Kayfabe and he has worked with both Big Show and Andre and still works with Big Show to this day. The Big Show himself said Andre was taller. Also noone is saying Andre was the billed 7'4 or 7'5 but he was 7'1.5 which is a few inches off and about right. They usually add 2 to 3 inches and the reason they stayed with it at WrestleMania era even though he was only about 6'10 or 6'11 is that they couldn't say their Giant was shrinking or not healthy it would be bad for buisness and they were still trying to protect Kayfabe. You say sports writers than who? Any sports writer epecially at this time is going to say negative things about a wrestlers especially the NBA writers who are trying to promote their own guys. You still provide no proof. Look at the cake photos cited on this page or the photo with Bobby Hull who is a legit 5' 10 and Andre has him by 15 inches boots and shoes accounted for. Also these pictures are the best ones because they are taken on a regular camera straight on. Any photo taken in the ring can be deceiving because of standing positions and angles and the same goes for video. These photos are early 1970's and the best ones out there of Andre. Also in the cake photo with all the guys one of them guys is listed at 6' 1. I continue to show proof of a taller Andre if he was 6' 10 at Wrestlemania 3 than he is well over 7 feet in these photos.

A 'citation' is 'a word or piece of writing taken from a written work' This page does not qualify. I am trying to access the Mooneyham site, I succeded once (not from ur link) but could not find the quote, tho I will keep trying. The 'Myth of Andre' is something that is protected in wrestling circles, tho I am not disputing what Duggan said. What Big Show say's is irrelavent since he nver met Andre. How do you know 'a few inches off is aboot right'? It was not unheard of for wrestlers to have 5 inches or more added. Big John Studd, a legit 6 ft 7 in was billed at 7 ft in the early 80's, Hogan was billed at 6 ft 9 etc. The photos you show are not proof. The Wilt pic is good, but don't try and say that Wilt is standing straight and Andre is not, that is clearly not nthe case. Andre to me looks to be standing quite straight. I doubt fixing an ankle would rob him of any height then. And as far as I am aware, the only time Andre had back surgery was in laet '86. Not before Conan. Unless you have some other time he has had it?Halbared 13:21, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Listen good Andre had Ankle surgery and one Back surgery before this photo was taken. All of the links below I have tested and they work perfect. You talk alot but you prove nothing. You say sportwriters well I linked the 1981 sports Illustrated tribute to Andre and they state over 7 feet tall. I linked the Wepnar video below so you can hear Wepnar's managers quotes about how Andre made Wepnar look like a baby and was dwarfed along side of Andre and at least he was there for the fight watching it in person at ringside. Big John Studd was billed at 6'10 not 7 feet tall and Hulk Hogan states in his dvd that he was 6'7 at his peak but is now 6'4 because of surgeries and age and that Andre was a half a foot taller than him then and this wasn't even Andre's peak height it was at the later part of Andre's life. Andre's body was breaking down on him from the 1980's on. Remember his head, hands, feet, and chest never stopped growing and he continued to gain weight. He could barely move around the ring or get up from the canvas by this time. You are going by hearsy I am providing new information to this site. This is the same thing as a citation it is from a piece of written work from Mike Mooneyham as well as others. What you are saying is just because Meltzer said it it or put it in his book makes it true. I think not considering how he makes a living. I am just providing facts. Why don't you stop talking and prove something oh that's right you have no proof. All of your claims you have not proved so they are hearsay. The only thing your going by is one quote by someone who has contradicted himself on this very subject anything else you say is just talk or hearsay. At least I've provided actual quotes and articles. Finally you do need glasses if you say that Andre is not slouching in the Wilt picture and Wilt is not standing straight up. Andre always slouched by this time due to excessive weight gain. All the links listed below are legit and work fine I tried them myself. Why don't you just take the time to look at them and the quotes because you are not proving anthing by just talking and being skeptical. They show a taller Andre who stands straight not slouched and they are before any of his surgeries. There is an overwhelming amount of evidence listed below to confirm he was over 7 feet tall at his peak.Cashisclay 22:00, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

When did he have his first back sugery? The ankle surgey is quite well known. I have seen the Wepnar vid. Wepnar is dowm as being less that 6 ft 6 in. At the moment, we have one sports writer stating he was measured at a certain height at a very young age, and another one saying something different, so with this in kind you cannot state he was the taller height, we can merely say that these two writers have different opinions, which is what is not said in the main body of the article. Big John was billed at both 7 feet and 6 ft 10 in in his career. Hogan states he was 6 ft 7 in prolly to hide the fact that he had such a huge billed back in the 70's. Hogan was not the most truthful in his autobiog and maintained a good defence of his actions over the years. I am not going of hearsay. I am going off the cited information and pictures. Melzter is no less valid than Mooneyham just because his evidence conflicts with urs. Andre isn't slouched in that pic, I would advise spectacles yourself.:oD Regardless, since we have co0nflicting evidence, the comnpromise is to present it both as claims, which we have compromised on, however to state he really was 7 ft 2 in would be incongruous.Halbared 08:49, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Well if to state that he was 7'2 would incongruos then to state he was 6' 10 would be the same thing. We both have info backing up both claims because really that's all they are is claims unless we measured him ourselves or had some sold evidence of him being measured which will never be found. The height should state 7'2 or at least over 7' and 6'10 WWF era. The fact Andre lost some height is very evident from pics and video and he was at least 6'10 or 6' 11 at Wrestlemania 3 so with the info below and the visual height loss Andre was over 7 feet in his prime years. The facts are provided here below just as you provided yours so the listing of both heights should be stated due to the facts provided.Cashisclay 03:27, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

I am not stating he was merely 6 ft 10 in. Read what is written. The article claims that he was at least 6 ft 10 in. That is fact, to state anything else is supposition. And read this page. I myself think that he may have been as tall as 6 ft 11 ¾ in, as Melztler claims in his first book, this seems reasonable, but I did not arbitrarily change it BECAUSE IT IS NOT FACT! It is my opinion, and the only fact we have to go on is the fact that he was at least as tall as the lowest cited height. That's why Darren and myself have amended your edits. And did you know that Andre wrestled exclusively for the WWF in N America from the 70's? His whole US career is WWF era. Both heights are now in the article as 'claims', because that is what they are. And have you any more info on his first back surgery?Halbared 08:38, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Well I was stating WWF not WWWF era. I know the history of the company. Here is another major contradiction from this alledged claim. Meltzer claims Andre was measured at 6 ft 9 ¾ in 1974 by a French athletic commission, at the age of twenty-four. Andre was not 24 in 1974 he was 28 he was born in 1946. Due the math and fix this. Also Andre began wrestling under the name Jean Ferre in Canada for Grand Prix Promotions in 1971. In a short time Andre went from the undercard to being a headlining name. By the time Andre had performed in front of 20,000 wrestling fans in Montreal, his legend had reached Vince McMahon, Sr. at the World Wide Wrestling Federation's (WWWF) headquarters. McMahon would forever alter Andre's life. In 1972, McMahon signed Andre to wrestle for the WWWF . So look at these facts why would a french commission even be measuring Andre in the first place. He was part of thw WWWF way before this 1974 date. There is no way Vince McMahon SR. would allow anyone to be measuring his wrestlers especially at a time when kayfabe was so protected. I know Andre travelled the world but Andre was wrestling full time in Canada, Us, and Japan in 1974 which makes it less likley for him to be wrestling in France in 1974. Meltzer's claim has totally fallen apart. He does not even have the age right. This claim should be taken out because there is false information in it. This site is not supposed to be the National Inquirer it is supposed to be based on as much fact as possible. Meltzer's claim is full of false information and should not be used in this article and you can't just change the age because that wouldn't be what he actually said and would not be FACT. Also in the Wilt photo he says Wilt is 7'.5 when Wilt is a measured 7'1 3/8 and he says Andre is 6'11.5. If you go by Wilt's real height this would put Andre over 7' by Meltzer himself.Cashisclay 10:38, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Actually, the age thing was bad math on my part, Meltzer made no mention of his age, he only gave the year. Andre didn't make his first extensive North American tour until 1974 and did little traveling outside of Europe before that. It wasn't until after the Montreal territory collapsed that Vince McMahon Sr. became Andre's booker so he would have had no power to stop a French commission from measuring Andre. We've been over the picture about ten times already, I'm not going over it again. People's opinions can change over time. Meltzer thought it was a smoking gun but then took other sources and photographs into account and changed his mind.--Darren Jowalsen 15:04, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Well for starters you are going by false info because Andre left France in 1971 to wrestle in Montreal as Jean Ferre where he made a name for himself and lived there for a while. The cake photos show that he was in Montreal in 1972. He wrestled for Grand Prix Promotions. Read his Bio on his webpage it is all stated on there.

Andre signed with MacMahon in 1972 it is right on his website so he was MacMahon property as of 1972 and if you look at Maple Wrestling Page Andre was working alot with them alot from 1973 on usually with The Sheik. I think you pay too much attention to a dirt sheet writer who's claims are very contradited and skeptical and who you are showing favourtism for. This is supposed to be fact not hearsy. These are all facts so what are you talking about. You need to get the facts straight and stop going by hearsay or gossip.

He was Vince Snr's property in North America after '72, when Andre held engagements outside of North America Vince had no say over what happened.Halbared 17:44, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

The only thing you provided for proof on this whole page is the Meltzer theory which is contradicted by himself and is nothing more than creating controversy to sell a book. The more controversy the more books he sells and he is going to try to bring up all the dirt he can true or not. There is no proof to this claim and with all the facts out there and on this page it seems highly unlikely that this measurement ever took place. Your only evidence is very tainted to say the least and by the way Wilt Chamberlin is 7' 1 3/8 not 7'.5 as Meltzer listed. There is no proof stating Wilt was 7'.5. The proof states 7'1 3/8 which by Meltzer himself would put Andre over 7' tall as of 1984. The article should state that Meltzer has contradicted himself on this account because it's the truth and a fact. This is from the giant among us article in 1981. By all accounts, Andre's health is excellent. Until last spring, in fact, when he suffered a broken ankle, he had never been to a hospital. When he did check in, however, he caused his usual stir. This is proof that no doctor measured him 1974. Andre didn't like going to hospitals or have anyone examine him. So he would not of let this measurement happen.

All we are doing is going around in circles. Both sides strongly believe what they believe and when this happens, the optimal outcome is a compromise. A compromise was struck, both sides are in the articles with no preferential treatment for one or another. Remember, it's verifiablity, not necessarily truth that is important in Wikipedia articles. The Meltzer statements are staying in since it is citeable and from a source that many people trust, even though you do not. This argument is not doing any good to anyone. There is nothing more to be said. We made a compromise and since all sides are cited, there is absolutely no reason for this discussion to continue. Some say Andre is 6'10", other say he was 7' or more. That's fair and neutral.Darren Jowalsen 04:03, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

The article looks alot better with all the evidence stated. Unless any new evidence comes up this is probably the best article that can be posted at this time. Good job on the editing.Cashisclay 10:56, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Here is a complete list of Andre's matches from 1974 and NEVER ONCE did he wrestle in France. So this proves Meltzer's claim is WRONG. Meltzer's claim should now be taken out of the article because it was for sure made up or hearsay. This claim should be removed because it's not true. slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Wrestling/ResultsArchive/Wrestlers/andrethegiant.html

This is the Mike Mooneyham site and article.

Andre, who was born in Grenoble, France, and lived on a 200-acre ranch in Ellerbe, N.C., was born with acromegaly, a disorder marked by progressive enlargement of the head, face, hands, feet and chest due to excessive secretion of growth hormones. And although he was often billed as being 7-4 and 7-5, Andre was actually "only" 7-2 when he began his career and had leveled out to under seven feet tall in recent years.

http://www.mikemooneyham.com/pages/viewfull.cfm?ObjectID=C3BAC431-2ED0-4320-9135E00CBA51350C

Here is some more proof to prove Andre to be over 7 feet tall. Studd was wearing 4 inch lifts when he wrestled Andre.

Studd, who at 6-7 and 320 pounds was one of the sport's biggest men during an era when grapplers of that size were rare, was a frequent opponent for the late Andre The Giant (Andre Rousimoff). The 18-year veteran wore four-inch lifts in his boots to bolster his height and virtually stand eye to eye with Andre, who was billed as 7-4 but was actually closer to seven feet tall. http://www.mikemooneyham.com/pages/viewfull.cfm?ObjectID=5130D70C-B003-44A8-8BCBAE3854F0BB88

This is the Bobby Hull pic who is 5'10 or 5'11 as listed by the NHL. http://mapleleafwrestling.4t.com/previousupdates/andrespotlight.html

Note in these pictures the cake is 7 feet 4 inches tall as is stated in french. http://www.rds.ca/lutte/photos/album_photo30.html http://www.rds.ca/lutte/photos/album_photo34.html http://www.rds.ca/lutte/photos/album_photo22.html http://www.rds.ca/lutte/photos/album_photo13.html http://www.rds.ca/lutte/photos/album_photo16.html http://www.rds.ca/lutte/photos/album_photo20.html

Here is the Chuck Wepnar fight in which Andre dwarfs Wepnar by at least 6 or 7 inches and note Wepnar's manager states that Andre made Wepnar look like a baby dwarfed along side of Andre. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozRTSSaP6p4

From Jim Duggan shoot interview;

Wrestling Andre the Giant- He first wrestled him in Hawaii. Great guy. If Andre didn’t like you, it wasn’t a good thing. “Paul Wight, The Giant, is a big, well proportioned, man. Andre was a GIANT.

http://thesmartmarks.com/artman/publish/article_1225.shtml

THESE ARE THE 1969 PROMO PICS

http://www.oldschool-wrestling.com/geeklog/article.php/Andre1969PromoPics3

http://www.oldschool-wrestling.com/geeklog/article.php?story=Andre1969PromoPics2&query=andre%2Bthe%2Bgiant

More pics of a much taller Andre notice he towers over the doorway

http://www.onlineworldofwrestling.com/pictures/a/andrethegiant/16.jpg

This picture is from Dave Melzter himself 1984. Note that Wilt is really listed at 7'1 3/8 by the NBA and Andre is almost the same height by the time you factor the Wilt's wig and boots and Andre's boots. Andre in this photo is after having back and ankle surgeries and is not at his peek height as the other early photos clearly show and is slouching a bit while Wilt is standing straight up with his chest sticking out. Meltzer has him at 6'11.5 but only has Wilt at 7'0.5. Add the other 3/4 inch to both and Andre is over 7 feet tall and not even at his peak. Meltzer had no right to take an inch from Wilt's height. Wilt is over 7'1 so Andre is over 7'0. The proof is right before your eyes.

http://img79.imageshack.us/img79/1474/andrewiltarnold4zr.jpg

More Andre links Including the Sports Illustrated 1981 Tribute "To The Giant Among Us".

http://www.puroresu.com/wrestlers/andre/andresi.html

http://www.history1700s.com/store/andre-the-giant.shtml Cashisclay 09:21, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

The agreed version seems to keep getting an extra tag on line which was not agreed, contradicts some the citations and is POV. Firstly, Andre is on record as only having one back surgery. This was in 1986. He doesn't appear to look much different at WMIV than he does at WMII. Whether he does or not, his bios all agree he had only one. Now what is a fact is that Andre had never be anaesthetized before. This is shown in his bio when the London doctor did not know how much to use, Andre and Vince did not know and enjoyed telling the story of how they had to gauge his reaction of alcohol. I cannot imagine another back surgery taking place where Andre was not anaesthetized.:oD Then we have the POV line that Andre lost height due to bad posture. Which is also POV. For a long time the only citation was Meltzers, with Andre's height at 6 ft 10 in. Then another journalist was found with a height of 7 ft 1 in. Now both these journalists are given equal footing and treated fairly, as both reasonable things. To add the line aboot bad posture at a later date dismisses the first citation and supports the second, is not cited and is wish fulfilment on the part of those tho think Andre was bigger in his youth, it's best to stick with facts and citations here, as an encyclopaedia should.Halbared 09:33, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Here is a complete list of Andre's matches from 1974 and NEVER ONCE did he wrestle in France in 1974. So this proves Meltzer's claim is WRONG. Meltzer's claim should now be taken out of the article because it was for sure made up or hearsay. This claim should be removed because it's not true. You say facts well the Fact is Andre Never Wrestled In France In 1974 . Go to the link below. The proof is there to view .

slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Wrestling/ResultsArchive/Wrestlers/andrethegiant.html

Why does this matter? Why don't we just put something a little ambiguous that encompasses all of his wrestle heights? JaderVason 07:49, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

WE have. Both versions are given full and equal credit.Halbared 09:05, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I am surprised you lot are still going on about his hight. Try running some of his pictures through a spectra-analysis program or something that will tell you his hight. I for one believe the WWE wouldn't lie about his hight and I have faith it is 7'4. Govvy 18:32, 14 December 2006 (UTC)8

US Wrestler Paul Wight. He has said "I'm 7 foot and Andre was about 7ft 1, 7ft 2".

Andre with Roddy Piper in Piper's prime . Andre was an inch or so below his peak height by this point.

http://i16.tinypic.com/3y7yn9v.jpg

Big Show with Piper . By this point piper had lost about an inch of height and this is Big Show's prime and Big Show's 2 inch lifts have to be taken into account that he was known to wear in WCW.

http://i16.tinypic.com/331lpfs.jpg

Here are some Andre pics looking over 7 feet tall.

These scales measure up to 84 inches or 7 feet tall and the man with Andre has it dissconected all together by a few inches. Dual-read height rod, range 24" to 84" (by 1/8 in.), 60 cm to 213 cm (by 1 mm)

http://i3.tinypic.com/30k8v88.jpg

http://i14.tinypic.com/312tr4j.jpg http://i3.tinypic.com/30hl9w6.jpg http://i14.tinypic.com/2isxdw1.jpg http://i3.tinypic.com/2r4sd4z.jpg http://i11.tinypic.com/2dbunu0.jpg

This pic is Andre at 18 years old standing 6' 10 as stated in photo for a French newspaper. He was 6' 7 at 17 years old and 6' 10 at 18 years old. He definetly would have reached 7 feet tall considering giants have been documented to grow in height until the age of 22 years old. Andre definetly got bigger after this picture in height and of course weight. http://i16.tinypic.com/2zohd8w.jpg

http://i18.tinypic.com/4gsp65e.jpg http://www.rds.ca/lutte/photos/album_photo13.html http://www.rds.ca/lutte/photos/album_photo30.html http://www.rds.ca/lutte/photos/album_photo34.html http://www.rds.ca/lutte/photos/album_photo20.html http://mapleleafwrestling.4t.com/previousupdates/andrespotlight.html http://www.onlineworldofwrestling.com/pictures/a/andrethegiant/16.jpg http://www.oldschool-wrestling.com/geeklog/article.php?story=Andre1969PromoPics&query=andre%2Bthe%2Bgiant http://www.oldschool-wrestling.com/geeklog/article.php?story=Andre1969PromoPics2&query=andre%2Bthe%2Bgiant http://www.oldschool-wrestling.com/geeklog/article.php/Andre1969PromoPics3

This is from a man who met Andre on 2 occassions and was obsessed with Andre's real height. This is some solid evidence of Andre's real peak height.

Look, everyone of you is waaay off. I personally have met Andre the Giant on two ocassions, once when I was 12 at Madison square garden, and once again when i was 22 in Lakeland FL. I was obsessed with wrestler's height's at the time, He gave me his autograph, and I asked him how tall he really was. He told me that he did not know for sure what his height was, but his personal handler knew, and I should ask him. His handler said that at age 24, Andre was legitamately measured at 7'1.5 ... and i believe him, because when i was 12, he had to duck to go through the 7 foot tall doorways in madison square garden. When i was 22, he was shorter, after having had two surgeries.. about 6'11. http://www.rateitall.com/reviewercomments.aspx?RI=9671389

Here in an interview with Andre the Giant he reveals his True peak height and his height later on in life.

Andre was cremated in france, even his ashes were twice the weight of average his coffin was 7.5 feet, In his later years, he admitted that he was never above 7'2" and that the billing of "7'4" " came from Jack Tunney and the WWF, he went on to say {due to the loss of bone mass from acromegaly, along with his excess weight and aging }"I am 6'10".

Cashisclay 06:23, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Ok. to answer to the real peak height of Andre : It's impossible to give a real answer because I don't know his real height peak. The only thing I know that Andre tell us all the time that his height is 2,18 meters. That's it ! It's not important for Andre's article... --User:Roussimoff Boris Andre's Nephew. February 6th 2007, at 1:45 PM eastern time.

Here is the Captain Lou shoot interview where he states Andre was 7'2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfDhtTrGaI4 Cashis 20:23, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

• He also say's 7'4. It has little meaning, we already have a citation for the 7'2 height with mooneyham, we don't need another, Bob Leonard thinks he was 6'11, but we don't cite that.

The pojtn is that we don't need to clog the article with muliplt citations of the same info, also Lou contradicts himself.Halbared 18:23, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Here it states that Andre's real height was beleived to be 7'1 peak and then 6'10 later in life. http://www.manlyweb.com/realmen/entertainment/AndreRoussimoff.html Cashis 04:23, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Contradiction

"When André was young, he could not fit on a normal school bus and had to be driven to school. As his parents were unable to afford a car of their own, his neighbor, famed playwright Samuel Beckett, drove him every day.[4]

[...]

As a child, André was referred to by his parents as Dédé (pronounced Day-day) and showed no signs of being the size that he would end up being."

The above statements are clearly contradictory. Anyone want to fix that? Foxmulder 18:17, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Heh. I was just about to post that exact same thing. So obviously, still not fixed yet. --Maelwys 19:49, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Even at his tallest adult height, he could have easily ridden even a small European school bus. How are we supposed to believe he "couldn't fit into a school bus" as a child or teen? And what was he driven to school in? A car -- which is so much smaller than a bus? The bed of a pickup truck? Did he never ride in a car in his life? If he was driven to school, there could be another explanation, such as social discomfort. 208.103.180.154 07:58, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

I have never seen Andre in person, but I am a former college basketball player who stands about 6-4. I have always been good at being able to tell a guys height from watching them on tv because of my experiences of being around tall guys through the many teams I have played on and guys that I have played against. I have been on the floor with numerous Seven footers and I know what 6-9 or 6-10 looks like and Andre at his peak was well above 6-10. Wilt Chamberlain was a legit 7-1 and pictures stabding next To Shaquille O'Neal prove as much and Andre at a slightly older age at the time of this picture is basicaaly the same height. Also in the pictures of The Big Show standing next to Hogan on one of the links, the same height differential between Hogan and The Big Show is the same at Wrestlemania 3 with Andre. I have met Hogan however and Hogan is a legit 6-7. If you don't believe me go to youtube and type in The Rock vs. Hulk Hogan and see for yourself. The Rock was listed at 6-5 and he admittedly is 6-4 and Hogan has an easy 3 inches on him. I believe the 7-2 so give Andre his credit. There is no way at his peak he was 6-10.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.139.1.226 (talk) 09:42, August 30, 2007 (UTC) 

Beckett 2

I removed the claim of Beckett ferrying Andre to "school everyday". Unless someone has a more robust source for this ( some actor telling amusing anecdotes in an interview, with absolutely zero corroborating sources, does not rise to the level of a 'reputable source') I strongly suggest we leave it out. It is an absolutely sensational claim, undoubtedly untrue ( or exaggerated in an extraordinary manner), and I'm amazed (and a tad embarrassed for WP) that it's stood as long as it has. Levi P. 06:50, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

What other robust source can there be? This was a personal story passed on by Andre to some of his fellow actors, which was then passed on in the DVD. http://www.dvdtimes.co.uk/content.php?contentid=61912 Halbared 10:21, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean...any reputable source would due. The point is, if there isn't a "more robust" source, which it doesn't seem there is, then the "story" shouldn't go in. It's not encyclopedic. Frankly, it is just hearsay, hearsay about two dead people, one of whom is the greatest playwright of the 20th century. It has every earmark of an apocryphal story and zero evidence corroborating it. That actor is not a reputable source for biographical info of Beckett. If he had published this story in a reputable venue where there was editorial oversight, then there would be something to talk about. As it is, it's just him talking in an interview. And, separate from the issue of sourcing (which is my real concern), the story doesn't even make any sense! Not even factoring in that Beckett could be famously taciturn and stand-offish, are we to believe that Andre, who, according to reliable sources certainly was tall, but no "giant" when he was young, could not fit in a "bus" but could fit in Beckett's car?Andre's family has never seen fit to mention this absolutely fantastic story in interviews? Andre never saw fit to mention this in any interview, that he knew the greatest living writer, a living legend? The fact is, the only thing we know from reliable sources is that they happened to live in the same town. I think that is what the article should reflect. Cheers, Levi P. 19:41, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Here's another source for the Beckett story:

As the days in Cannes passed, I realized that in twenty-five years of screenwriting, I had worked with, obviously, a lot of American actors and their British counterparts. ...

But in all that time, only one Frenchman. Monsieur Rousimoff. Probably better known by his athletic tag, André the Giant. André played one of the four leads in The Princess Bride, Fezzik, the strongest man in the world. ...

He was a constant source of pleasure--and a constant surprise.

One day he asked us if we knew who Samuel Beckett was.

Being familiar with Waiting for Godot, we said we did. Then we asked why he asked.

It seemed that André was brought up in a tiny town, population maybe thirty. And one of the other thirty was Beckett himself. When André was young, sometimes when he walked to school, Beckett would stop and give him a lift.

Talk about your odd couple.

Goldman, William (1990). Hype and Glory. New York: Villard Books, 136, 138. ISBN 0-394-58432-5. 

Note that in this version, Andre did not claim that he couldn't fit in the bus, or even that there was a bus, or that Samuel Beckett drove him to school every day, just that Beckett "sometimes" gave him a ride to school, which I think we can accept as realistic. --Metropolitan90 07:01, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

When Andre was young, in the fifty's he was normal. Every day he went to school by foot, because in the small village where he grow up, no bus were available. It's why he went to school by foot every day. Sometimes local farmers gave a ride to school to Andre and Andre's brothers and Sisters. --User:Roussimoff Boris Andre's Nephew 04H49, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Well that sounds like a good source, metropolitan. I think it would be best to just say, "Andre told author W. Goldman and others that Samuel..." then both sources could be used- and readers could be explicitly aware of where the info is coming from and judge it accordingly. But as you say, the story is more toned-down and the source is reputable so I would agree with you that it is indeed 'realistic' ( though, if I had to bet, I would still go with it being an embellishment of the "Beckett lived in my town" story). But, either way, it is sourceable, so thanks for coming up with a definitive answer. Cheers, Levi P. 03:32, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

By the way, do we have an independent source as to the fact that Andre grew up in the village where Samuel Beckett lived? (Certainly there would be records to support that if it is true.) And what was the name of the village? --Metropolitan90 06:49, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Answer to Metropolitain90 : The small village is Molien. It's very small (about 30 personns) and the house of Samuel Beckett (corner the road Lizy sur Ourcq and La ferte sous jouarre) is between Molien and Ussy-sur Marne, about 500 inhabitants (where the school is located). I know very well this part of Seine et Marne because I used to live there..... It's very difficult to find an independant source because all my friend at Ussy- sur-Marne don't speak english... The lieu-dit where lived Samuel Beckett is call by the village "Tarzan" !!! --User:Roussimoff Boris Andre's Nephew

HELLO BORIS ROUSIMOFF CAN YOU CLEAR UP THIS HEIGHT DISSCUSION AND TELL US ANDRE'S REAL PEAK HEIGHT.

Ok. to answer to the real peak height of Andre : It's impossible to give a real answer because I don't know his real height peak. The only thing I know that Andre tell us all the time that his height is 2,18 meters. That's it ! It's not important for Andre's article... --User:Roussimoff Boris Andre's Nephew. February 6th 2007, at 1:45 PM eastern time.

Popular Culture

In the popular culture can someone add that he is mentioned in the Australian movie Kenny. Kenny Smyth is told that he has to move some port-a-loos and he says "you'd have to be Andre the Giant to move them, they weigh like 2 ton" Cheers. (By the way I aint lazy as some may think, more or less the thing is blocked so I cant edit it)

Heavy Drinking

I came across a page documenting Andre's drinking "biography" [1]. This probably ought to be included, as drinking seemed very important to him. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.195.90.22 (talk) 23:44, 1 January 2007 (UTC).

I agree, if even some of the stuff in that article is true it's pretty notable. Don't know if it can be confirmed though. 128.62.90.177 23:31, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Questionable statement

"In an FHM interview with Brooke Hogan, Hulk Hogan's daughter, Brooke mentions how one of the stories her father tells that while on a tour in Japan, André was too big for the toilets they provided. André resorted to laying newspaper on the hotel mattress and defecating there. Once finished, Andre would shout to Hogan, "Hey boss, come look at this."

One, that doesn't add any value to the article, it's unprofessional, and it seems unencyclopedic.

Two, it's third or fourth-party information. "a magazine says that Brooke says that Hulk Hogan says that..." 208.103.180.154 08:20, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Height and Calorie Consumption

According to his website he was 7'4 at his peak, admittedly next to Hulk Hogan, who I believe was 6'6, he didn't look 10 inches taller but I thought I'd mention it.

Does anyone have any idea how many calories he would consume in a day, I'd have said about 6,000 but I don't know?

82.14.83.66 13:10, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

When I first saw him in the late 70s, the announcer mentioned that Andre would gain 50 lbs thoughout the day. He would start out around 400 lbs, and after eating meals consisting of 1 dozen eggs, 2 lbs of bacon, etc. he would weigh 450 lbs by the end of the day.

Pictures seem lacking and/or inapropriate

I am unhappy to see a mug shot as the only representation outside the opening picture. Surely there must be a better photos, if for nothing else, respect for this fine gentleman. Woknblues 02:55, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Daughter

Is the year his daughter was born right. Because here it says 1979. But the OWW(Obsessed with Wrestling site) says she was born in 1981.

Daggoth in Conan the destroyer?

Daggoth was an animated statue in that movie, and he didn't have a voice either, just roared, that's all I can think of that Andre could have done. I thought Daggoth was just a special effect/animation that nobody played him. The snare 11:05, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

He turns into a large monster after the stature bit, it's not animated, it's a costume, Andre was in that.Halbared 11:22, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

World Wrestling Federation

The sections on WWF could be changed around. The first section is far too long, impossible to read through, while the second section is only a sentence long. Bleh. I don't have the time to make such drastic changes, but if someone else takes it on I hereby volunteer to copy-edit it. It just needs split up better, and maybe reformatted a bit. Best regards.--Song 02:03, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Oh, and while I'm at it, the 'Personal Life' section is just a bunch of stories, none of them refrenced. Through I get the distinct sensation this has been brought up before, it seems worth mentioning...--Song 02:47, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one article was rated and this bot brought all the other ratings up to at least that level. BetacommandBot 02:17, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Really annoying

I find it really annoying when a cartoon referance that has little to nothing to do with this man can go untouched, but when a post about a production company making an Andre flutag float, that has documentation on it's website, is deleted. Wikipedia and it's users are really starting to piss me off, and I think my last donation was just that, my last. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.255.253.8 (talk) 04:46, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

You're right, there were a lot of other non-notable references. I removed those as well. Thanks for bringing these to my attention. — Val42 05:23, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Wine

Andre the Giant drank 14 bottles of wine before his match with Hulk Hogan at WrestleMania 3. Tyler Warren ^{(talk/contribs)} 04:43, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism

While reading this article I found a several intensely confusing parts, along with some plain vandalism (the part where someone decided that a werewolf Hulk Hogan ate his corpse. I have attempted to either remove or correct these entries but I lack the knowledge of André's life and career to make any more exhaustive fixes. Can anyone more knowledgeable go back over this and copyedit? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rmx256 (talk • contribs) 15:40, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Acromegaly

Aren't acromegalics usually weak and spindly, instead of stout powerhouses like Andre?

"Andre Driver"

I seriously doubt Andre's Tombstone Piledriver was ever called this. I nor anyone else I know of has heard it called this. Whoever keeps adding it, just give up. It'll never stick without an audio/video source. Some site like OWW isn't reliable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tvp119 (talk • contribs) 22:18, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Um, for his filmography, shouldn't we cite his guest starring in the 90's Zorro tv show? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.178.252.63 (talk) 13:58, 7 April 2008 (UTC)