Talk:Andorra

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[edit] Folklore

Is there a point in having a folklore section if it doesn't tell us what it is?

Could someone please clean up the tail-end of the article? I get only a garbled page starting from the "Andorra la Vella" header onward. Thanks. - diego001

I get nothing from the gif at beginning of page said Vicki Rosenzweig

Vicki, by any chance do you have an advertisement-blocker on your web browser? I notice that the image is called "ad.gif", and is linked from a different hostname (meta.wikipedia.com). Brion VIBBER

"Catalan" or "Spanish" Co-prince

The term "Catalan co-prince" of Andorra is incorrect for three reasons. First, the co-prince of Andorra does not have this title because he is Catalan, but because is a member of the Roman Catholic hierarchy. Second, prior to the use of the euro, Andorra used the peseta, the Spanish currency. Therefore, monetary issues were not dealt with Catalan government, but with the central bank of Spain (Banco de España). Any relations with Andorra would be through the central government, not the Generalitat. Third, defense of Andorra is still the responsibility of Spain and France, not Catalonia and France. Therefore, because the co-prince is a member of the Spanish Roman Catholic hierarchy, because monetary issues are controlled by Spain (along with France), and because military issues are decided by Spain (and France), the co-prince is not a co-prince because he is Catalan, he is co-prince because he is Spanish, not Catalan.

I should look into this more before suggesting it, but isn't he called the "Copríncep Episcopal"? -- User:Docu

OK. You are nationalist and you only want to introduce the word "Spanish" instead of "Catalan". But there isn't relation between what you said and these words. There is no relation between the currency (who is the co-prince of San Marino, or Monaco? What used them?). Only France (no Spain) have to defence Andorra. And the most important: the co-prince is the Bishop of Urgell now, and centuries before the creation of Spain (catholic, OK, but it doesn't point to Spain more than to Catalonia). You want to write the word Spain, OK, but the reasons that you comment are absurd, and only follows to politicize the article. Then I suggest neutral terms like Episcopal Co-pince or Urgeil Co-prince. Llull 19:03, 16 May 2004 (UTC)

From Peter Wye,

The politically neutral "Episcopal Co-prince" is actually a very good idea. I have made the change. But please do not attack my character here. I would never do that to anyone, and I expect it not to be done to me.

"Only France (no Spain) have to defence Andorra."

This is incorrect. Both France and Spain defend Andorra. [1]

Hi Angela - just noted your amendment to the text above - however the word used (sic) in this sense means that the wording thus indicated is a quote which although evidently contains error in spelling, grammar or conventional usage, is nevertheless reproduced in its original form. --JohnArmagh 07:24, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)

____

"Tradition holds that Charlemagne granted a charter to the Andorran people" Charlemagne's charters, even the forgeries, go to individuals, not to "people". Is there any more realistic information about an ancient charter for Andorra? Wetman 01:27, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)

[edit] King Boris

The main article states that Boris was a Russian, but the article List of Co-Princes of Andorra states he was Dutch. Which is correct? Grunners 06:39, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Browsing through the bookshops in Andorra i found that biographies of Boris state that he was Russian. Jimmy 07:35, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Suggest 10 possible wiki links for Andorra.

An automated Wikipedia link suggester has some possible wiki link suggestions for the Andorra article:

• Can link king of France: ...the title passed to the kings of [[Navarre]], and under the king of France [[Henry IV of France|Henry IV]], an edict in [[1607]] estab... (link to section)
• Can link Bishop of Urgell: ...n [[1607]] established the head of the French state and the Bishop of Urgell as co-princes of Andorra.... (link to section)
• Can link French Empire: ...rgell as co-princes of Andorra. In the period 1812-14, the French Empire annexed Catalonia and divided it in four departments (Segre... (link to section)
• Can link Guardia Civil: ...king by the Andorran goverment. On July 14, a group of the Guardia Civil (Spanish militarized police) entered Andorra and took him t... (link to section)
• Can link Spanish Civil War: ...a French detachment in Andorra to prevent influences of the Spanish Civil War and Franco's Spain. (June 1940 is the month of the French ... (link to section)
• Can link European history: ...ve isolation, Andorra has existed outside the mainstream of European history, with few ties to countries other than France and Spain. In... (link to section)
• Can link political system: ...cations have removed the country from its isolation and its political system was thoroughly modernised in [[1993]].... (link to section)
• Can link parliamentary democracy: ...]], the [[constitution]] establishes Andorra as a sovereign parliamentary democracy that retains the co-princes as [[head of state|heads of sta... (link to section)
• Can link legislative body: ... their role is almost entirely ceremonial. Andorra's main legislative body is the [[unicameral]] General Council of the Valleys (''Con... (link to section)
• Can link Executive Council: ...ints ministers to the [[cabinet (government)|cabinet]], the Executive Council (''Govern'').... (link to section)

Notes: The article text has not been changed in any way; Some of these suggestions may be wrong, some may be right.
Feedback: I like it, I hate it, Please don't link to — LinkBot 11:27, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Intro---> place name

Is it me, or does anyone else find it odd that Andorra's title is cited in Catalan (obviously) & French, but....not Castilian Spanish?

If Andorra's history is so deeply intertwined with that of her neighbors, wouldn't it be a bit remiss to leave the Spanish title out of it, while including the French?

Or is this a political omission, e.g. POV?

Andorrans, in common with the neighbouring regions of Spain (and less widely France) speak Catalan as their first language. Andorra's relations have always been with Madrid rather than Barcelona as there has never, in modern times been an independent Catalan state, only an autonomous region within Spain, but if they were treated as seperate at all, Andorra would be considered part of the Catalan "community", not the Castillian one. I hope that makes sense.

Of course, although Catalan is the local language, so much of Andorra's economy is based on tourism and day-trippers from France and Spain that most people also have good if not fluent French AND Castillian Spanish.

Also worth remembering is that although the co-prince on the French side was a head of STATE (The King and then the President), on the Spanish side it was a local bishop - whose seat is very firmly in Catalan territory. Esquimo 16:00, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Peace with Germany

Most sources say this was September 25, 1939. 1958 doesn't seem to be correct. Can someone check?

• It was 1939. Changed. --Tobyink
• Reverted.

[edit] National Day: Why on 8 September ?

Why is, Mare de Deu de Meritxell, the National Day of Andorra on 8 September ? Was the parage in 1278 signed on this day, which happened to be the feastday/birthday of Mary, the mother of Jesus (Mare de Deu) ? Where/what is Meritxell ? Can the date be confirmed, please ? -- PFHLai 16:39, 2005 September 5 (UTC)

[edit] Personal representatives of Andorran Co-princes

Can anyone tell whether the personal representatives of both Andorran Co-princes possess the same (or similar) status and authorities as the Governor-Generals of Commonwealth Realms, as the Andorran Constitution just states that the Co-princes can appoint personal representatives but does not mention their status and authorities. -- DD Ting 15:55, 28 Nov 2005 (UTC)

[edit] WW2

• What happened during WW2? (213.250.143.131)
  • They were neutral. They were an important smuggling route between Vichy France and Spain. -- Jmabel | Talk 09:21, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
• When did the Francoist troops reach the Andorran border? (213.250.143.131)
  • Relatively late (as with all Catalan territory) but I don't know the date. According to the map at right (click on it for a large version), they were not there in July 1938. -- Jmabel | Talk 09:21, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
• Did it limit with Vichy France or occupied France? (213.250.143.131)
  • Vichy France. There was no border between Occupied France and Spain. Wikipedia currently lacks a map of Vichy France. Does someone have a PD source for that, or would be willing to make a map? -- Jmabel | Talk 09:21, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
    • I was wrong (but not about what bordered Andorra). There was a slight border in the Basque region. This is one of the rare times I will refer someone to Encarta: map of Vichy France. -- Jmabel | Talk 09:27, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Is that map right? I don't see Italian-occupied France (It is shown in this French site.

Pretty tiny. - Jmabel | Talk 06:14, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

• What was the German attitude? (213.250.143.131)
  • That's the one question of yours I can't really answer. I suspect it was roughly the elephant's attitude toward a gnat. Can anyone answer this one? -- Jmabel | Talk 09:21, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
• When did they declare war? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.250.143.131 (talk • contribs) 3 Jan 2006.
  • To the best of my knowledge, never. -- Jmabel | Talk 09:21, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
    • Why did they have to declare peace with Germany if they never declared war and remained neutral? Nach0king 12:56, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
      • Because they had been a belligerent in World War I. - Jmabel | Talk 05:12, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

This, which changes the date from 1939 to 1958 appears to be someone writing something completely arbirtary (without citation) claiming as their basis that someone else lacks citation. - Jmabel | Talk 06:23, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

• Aha! and the three accounts that argued for this all have names that are anagrams of each other, and two were blocked as probable Wik sockpuppets. I have now blocked the third. - Jmabel | Talk 06:47, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

So here are several pages giving this information:

[2] [3] [4]. OK? I am now restoring the correct date, 1939. - Jmabel | Talk 06:36, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Read Wikipedia:Reliable sources, moron. Zero-authority private websites with titles like "brainyhistory", which copy their erroneous information from each other, are not. If you want a real source, try the New York Times, September 25, 1958, p. 66. Raveriz 12:18, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Is it at all possible the Times article talks about World War II, not WWI? A lot of sources say Andorra noticed the technical state of war when WWII started, and the treaty helped keep Andorra out of WWII. So 1939 was no accident, the treaty for WWI was due to the start of WWII that year. Weregerbil 16:57, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Nope, it clearly talks about World War I and the Treaty of Versailles. Andorra was not involved in World War II. Raveriz 17:18, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Ok, can you tell us what the article says exactly?

Also please refrain from calling people "idiots" and "morons". That is not constructive to figuring out the truth. Please remain civil. Weregerbil 20:14, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, that's interesting! Then several places say Andorra signed a treaty specifically to avoid getting dragged into WWII, which means it needed to happen before WWII. How's this for a random theory: the treaty was signed in 1939 and ...uh, I don't know how countries go about these things, but maybe the treaty was ratified in 1958. Taking the definition of the word "decree" as "Decree is an order by a head of state or government that has the force of law", i.e. the treaty was signed into a law in Andorra. Too far fetched? Weregerbil 20:43, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

These accounts are all sockpuppets of a banned user, and therefore his sockpuppets can be blocked and reverted on sight. It would seem that if he had a valid point to make, he'd cite sources; the fact that he has to resort to personal attacks and abusive sockpuppetry to try to make his change stick practically seems like he is admitting in advance that he doesn't have a valid case. -- Curps 21:02, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm new to this revert war so I don't know its historical details. I do see some sockpuppetry and incivility. But then again: is there a previous discussion of what the NYT article he has actually says? Has he been asked about the wording of the article previously? Weregerbil 22:07, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Sooo... has there been an honest attempt to contact the person with the NYT article and find out what's up here? Weregerbil 21:21, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

It's not a revert war. This user was banned by Jimbo Wales himself, and as such, any and all of his contributions can be reverted by anyone, on sight. He is notorious for using multiple sockpuppets to try to get his way, and once engaged in a massive vandalbot attack against Wikipedia (the reason for his ban).

Regarding the actual issue under discussion, who knows? 1939 makes sense in that World War II had just broken out and Andorra may have needed to clarify its position; 1958 may make sense in that the European Economic Community was established in that year and loose diplomatic ends may have needed to be tied up. There may even have been two separate events in question, one in each of the years. Note however that a large number of sources cite 1939 including the Catalan Wikipedia (Catalan is the official language of Andorra), so it seems likely that something occurred in 1939 and was possibly merely re-affirmed in 1958 (perhaps all treaties signed with the Nazi regime were considered null and void after the war). Go ahead and research it if you like, but it's a mere piece of trivia after all. -- Curps 21:48, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, I traced the 1939 error to its origin for you idiots. (Yes, idiots. What do I care for WP:NPA if you block me anyway. You are idiots.) It comes from here: http://www.webcom.com/duane/txt/humor/true.txt. And look what it says: "A peace treaty was finally signed with Germany on September 25, 1939, during the invasion of Poland at the start of WW2. This document brought peace to the Andorrans for the first time in 44 years and officially ended the first world war." Notice something? 1914 + 44 = 1958. This story obviously started from the true 1958 event but then mangled the year (among other things - it also absurdly describes Andorra as an "agean nation" and in another story claims that pi wasn't known to 3 decimal places in 1897, so you can see how credible this is). And from this idiotic site the other idiotic sites you idiots quoted got their idiotic idiocy. But rather than sinking in shame I'm sure Curps will continue to revert on principle and rather spread disinformation. Arrodna 03:08, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

And what evidence do you have that this one website is the source that all the other sources got their information from? That's not a particularly prominent or well-known website, it doesn't rank high on Google. How could it ever come to be so influential that it passed on incorrect information to dozens or hundreds of other websites? You fail to make any kind of persuasive case, and sockpuppetry and name-calling only hurts your credibility. -- Curps 03:33, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

As I expected, you dig your hole deeper. What "dozens or hundreds" of websites are you talking about? You cited three so far, and you could hardly find more than ten unless you count Wikipedia mirrors. And not all sites must have copied it from webcom.com, obviously. B copies from A, C from B, etc. Maybe webcom.com itself copied its entire story from elsewhere, but it shows how the error originated, as the "1939" and the "44 years" are directly contradictory. If you want to make believe that the "44 years" were the error and it's just a coincidence it adds up to 1958, you're an even greater moron than I thought. Arrodna 04:16, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

You fail to make a persuasive case, and name-calling only hurts your credibility. Here's another perfectly plausible scenario: the webcom.com site originally made the same error as you and used the incorrect 1958 date, and its author wrote the "44 years" phrasing in accordance (as pure embellishment just to puff up the number of words... since Andorra was never the theatre of military operations and was thousands of kilometers from the nearest front, it was at peace all along, anyway). Later, the author discovered the error and corrected it to 1939, but carelessly forgot to change the "44 years" accordingly.

It hardly matters though, because this is a completely obscure website of negligible influence, yet you are claiming that it is somehow the original source of all information on this question. If this website was not the actual original source of this text and it was copied from somewhere else, that merely delays the problem: just what is this supposed original source that was so incredibly influential that it spread disinformation across the entire Internet, yet so obscure that no trace of it seems to exist anymore (other than the supposed secondhand copy at webcom.com)?

There are far more than three sources that mention 1939. Jmabel listed three above, but you can easily find many more on Google (the Catalan Wikipedia, for instance, which has already been mentioned). -- Curps 05:56, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

And by the way, you failed to notice something: World War I ended in 1918, not 1914. So 44 years of peace would give 1962, not 1958. For that matter the Treaty of Versailles was not signed (by all the other countries) until 1919, so perhaps the clock should start ticking from there... -- Curps 06:01, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Just to further cloud matters, Encarta says Andorra remained neutral in World War I. [5] -- Curps 06:16, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

And another source that claims Andorra was neutral in World War I: [6]. Of course, this is just some obscure person's personal website, but so is the webcom.com site. -- Curps 06:35, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

It said "peace for the first time in 44 years", not "44 years of peace", you braindead fool. If World War I for Andorra lasted from 1914 to 1958, then 1958 was the first time of peace since 1914, i.e. in 44 years. And it is perfectly normal that a piece of information about an obscure matter appears somewhere on the Web for the first time, and then spreads around, whether it's true or not. And the first website may well disappear later, yet the misinformation stays. That's why no information whatsoever should ever be taken from random websites of no editorial authority, and yet your entire case for 1939 rests on such sites. Even if you had no other date specifically contradicting the 1939 one, it would be inacceptable (not just per common sense but also per WP:RS) to use the 1939 date based merely on those Web sources. There's not a single one of any credibility. But obviously such simple things are too hard for you to comprehend. Arrodna 00:08, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

You fail to make your case, and name-calling only hurts your credibility. You fail to explain why so many sources in languages other than English also mention the 1939 date. I could argue further, but it's not worth it. You are a banned user, and it's easy to see why. -- Curps 01:31, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

You fail to make your case, and accusing others of your own failing only hurts your credibility. You haven't cited any non-English source other than the Catalan Wikipedia page, which is clearly based on a translation from the English Wikipedia. And in any case, why do you think non-English sources should not be able to copy misinformation from English sources? You are a pathetic idiot, and it's easy to see why. Arrodna 01:37, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

French Wikipedia and many other examples. You know how to use Google, I presume. -- Curps 02:47, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Other Wikipedias are likely translations from the English. Or else, they got it from the same Web sources as the English. What's your point? The language makes no difference at all. And there are not "many other examples". Go ahead, cite them. You are probably too stupid to recognize Wikipedia mirrors (or just sites that copy parts of Wikipedia, like this has the exact same text as the French Wikipedia). They are also an important reason why your insistence on keeping the misinformation is so criminal. This spreads so far that it will seem to idiots like you that it "must be true" if there are so many "sources" agreeing on it! One idiotic website started putting up the misinformation, then other idiotic websites copied it, then some idiot put it into the English Wikipedia, then other Wikipedias copied it from there, etc. Shame on you, scum. Arronda 03:19, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

The Times citation appears to be valid (I just checked it). The article is a single paragraph, exactly as quoted above. That said, it would be interesting to know what did (or did not) occur in 1939, since Andorra was technically in a state of war with Germany from the previous war.

I want to say something else, though: the restoration of a correct date for a relatively unimportant and symbolic event is not nearly as important as behaving with some degree of civility. Calling other users "stupid" and "scum" is far more of an issue than presenting a piece of trivia accurately. Edit warring via a series of sockpuppets isn't much less heinous. I have blocked the numerous accounts used by this person (presumably Wik) in this process. I cannot comment further without leaving the bounds of civility myself, though I will admit that I am tempted. - Jmabel | Talk 05:50, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

No less an authority than Encarta says Andorra was neutral in World War I though [7] (which makes a certain sense, since Andorra was jointly ruled by two co-princes, one of whom was Spanish and therefore neutral). And this doesn't preclude the possibility that there may indeed have been two events, one in 1939 and one in 1958 and the latter was needed as "re-affirmation" at the time of the establishment of the European Economic Community, since it's very likely that any treaties signed with the Nazi regime had been declared null and void at the end of World War II. After all, the Federal Republic of Germany was not established until 1949 amid a very broad repudiation of all aspects of the previous regime and probably signed all its own treaties from scratch. Would it be possible to do a search of 1939 newspapers as well, specifically for the date of September 25 1939? And what does Britannica say?

The 1958 date alone (with no 1939 event) doesn't make sense for one very major reason: in 1942 the Germans occupied the remaining territory of Vichy France and Andorra thereupon had German troops on its border (not merely figuratively, but quite literally, to control border crossings, smuggling, Resistance agents entering and leaving, etc... see for instance, this reference: [8] which mentions German soldiers entering Andorran territory to seize French would-be escapees, and a number of other references [9] [10] to Resistance members transiting through Andorra). So if it occurred to anyone to make damn sure that Andorra was truly in a state of peace and neutrality with Germany, that surely would have been a priority in 1942 at the very latest (or more likely 1939), when it was an actual, pressing, and very real issue and not an abstract amusing historical or diplomatic footnote as in 1958.

Finally, the whole thing is not particularly relevant: after all, Japan and the Soviet Union never signed a peace treaty at the conclusion of World War II because of territorial disputes over the Kuril Islands which remain unresolved to this day, yet it would be rather pointless to make the claim that Japan and Russia are at war to this day. I doubt very much that our articles on either Japan or Russia mention this, although specialized articles on the World War II peace treaties might appropriately mention it.

Given the verifiability issues as per WP:Verifiability and lack of clarification about what very likely was some kind of event in 1939, and the lack of any real relevance, perhaps the best thing to do would be to simply remove this bit of trivia altogether from the Andorra article, and perhaps move it to Participants in World War I, which lists Andorra (possibly incorrectly) as a participant. -- Curps 08:22, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Andorra fought WWI right until the beginning of WWII, which it fought in, however they never sent any troops. Today their military budget is 8 american dollars, which for the last several years have been spent on blanks for cerimonial purposes —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Tk421a (talk • contribs) 15 September 2006.

The above was taken from a book published in 1979 called 'The Book of Heroic Failures' by Stephen Pile.--210.56.72.97 06:30, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

The current military budget of Andorra should be relatively easily verifiable (if necessary by a quick email to the press secretary of the Andorran Government!) Physchim62 (talk) 14:19, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] European Microstates

Andorra already appears in the category European Microstates. It is a subcategory of Microstates. ... discospinster 14:47, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Misc

removed "andorra band" info. 6/4/06 -9917

Could someone provide an explanation for the inclusion of a Canadian actor as the "royal prince Enric I"?

The explanation is that anyone can edit Wikipedia.

[edit] Motto

Why is Virtus Unita Fortior translated as "Strength United is Stronger"? "Bravery" would seem a much better translation for virtus in this context. - Jmabel | Talk 00:02, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Distances from other countries

The section on "Distances from other countries" is not a normal part of a country article; it strikes me as unencyclopedic curiosa. Why is it here? - Jmabel | Talk 07:43, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

i dont know, but i agree with your assessment and have removed it --Astrokey44 12:06, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Portuguese?

What is the basis for claiming that Portuguese is spoken in Andorra? Seems unlikely that any significant number of people there would speak it. Unless someone can cite for this, I think we should remove it. - Jmabel | Talk 07:17, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Seems to have been anonymously added by 87.219.167.193 (talk · contribs), an IP address with few edits. - Jmabel | Talk 07:22, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

But I gather that it is correct. How does Andorra come to be over 10% Portuguese? Anyone know? - Jmabel | Talk 00:59, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

There is a lot of need for labour, Andorra is known for having a fairly large population of portuguese people, especially in the principalities of Encamp and La Massana. Although Portuguesse is not an official language, it is certanly worth mentioning in this article.

I thought the figure was nearer 25% Portuguese, but I have no source for the moment. Andorra is relatively rich, but underpopulated in citizens, so has attracted a certain amount of immigration, especially 1960–80. Physchim62 (talk) 01:37, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The only official language

Please, can anyone change the official language in andorra? The ONLY official language in andorra is CATALAN. Spanish, french, and maybe portughese could be also spoken but those languages are NOT official in Andorra. I tried to change it, but I can't, maybe I'm doing something wrong with the code. Thanks. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.3.71.45 (talk) 00:26, 12 December 2006 (UTC).

Done Kmusser 01:59, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks but is not done, cuz you can still read, (Official LanguageS). Thanks again

That's part of the template, it says "Official languages" on all country pages even if they only have one (or none for that matter). Kmusser 14:09, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, that's true. Thank you ;)

[edit] Proposed WikiProject

In my ongoing efforts to try to include every country on the planet included in the scope of a WikiProject, I have proposed a new project on Southern Europe at Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals#Southern Europe whose scope would include Andorra. Any interested parties are more than welcome to add their names there, so we can see if there is enough interest to start such a project. Thank you for your attention. Badbilltucker 16:56, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The only official language.

What's going on on this article? Someone is changing the only official language, adding Spanish and french. Those languages are not official in Andorra. So, please, don't add it anymore in the main page as a Official language.

[edit] Lock this article

We need to lock this article too many times is changed by someone without any description about the changes with incorrect information. I'm tired to revert from Vandalism. Please Can someone lock this article? Thanks. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.3.145.91 (talk) 18:28, 3 January 2007 (UTC).

[edit] 2006 Estimated population

There is a discrepancy on the 2006 estimated population. On the sidebar it states 67,313, a decline from the 2004 census. However, the Demographics section states:

The current population is estimated at 71,201 (July 2006).

This would represent an increase from the 2004 census. Can someone check on this? Eve 18:58, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Official Denomination

The official denomination of Albert Pintat Santolaria is Head of Government. The executive council was the denomination of the government prior to the approval of the constitution in 1993. It is no longer in use nowadays. Jmm1 16:51, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Catalan-speaking territories Table

This table, which includes the following subdivisions: (History of Catalonia · Counts of Barcelona · Crown of Aragon · Treaty of the Pyrenees · Catalan constitutions · Generalitat de Catalunya · Generalitat Valenciana · Govern de les Illes Balears · Consell General de les Valls (Andorra) · Politics of Catalonia · Catalan nationalism) among others, has nothing to do in an independent state of Europe wikipage. For this reason, I am erasing it.

For the catalan speaking explanation inside the table, I believe it is already correctly explained in the normal text Maurice27 20:07, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Reversion of AntiCatalanism. See Northern Catalonia discussion page. Toniher 17:34, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Reversion again for Catalan Imperialism. See my answer in Northern Catalonia discussion page where you only talk about northern catalonia not andorra, the reason I do not consider a proper explanation to revert my edit.Maurice27 17:56, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Templates are included so people can easily browse related pages. The one you are removing is about Catalan-speaking world, because of Anti-Catalanism, as I have pointed at a discussion page of one of the many pages you are recently editing; but as you can see in the lower part of the page, there are many of other topics... Toniher 19:00, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

---

What has to do a completely pro-catalan biased table in this page? Ok let's see it:

I could accept it... If only the "language section" was included. But, then, we have the:

"History" section, one of my favourites, where we can see links to History of Catalonia, Counts of Barcelona, Treaty of the Pyrenees, Catalan constitutions and Crown of Aragon (All of them REAAAALLY connected in ALL ways to Andorra)

Next Section, "Geography". Here we can find some WORLWIDE KNOWN andorran territories such as Catalonia, Balearic Islands,Northern Catalonia, Franja de Ponent.

Next section, "Government and Politics". Here we can find some ABSOLUTLY related links for Andorra, such as Generalitat de Catalunya, Govern de les Illes Balears, Generalitat de Valencia, the funny Politics of Catalonia and the hillarious (in this andorran page)Catalan nationalism.

Last two sections, "Traditions". We have links to DEEP IN THE HEART andorran traditions such as Castells, Sardana, Caganer or Tió de Nadal (ALL OF THEM BEING -->UNIQUE<-- to Catalonia. We can also look for some fantastic andorran artists links, such as Salvador Dalí, Joan Miró and Antoni Tàpies all of them being born in....... Gentlemen, I let you guess......... Right!!! Born in Catalonia!! Not a single andorran artist is mentioned.

I hope these proves the completely biased content of this table, and wish it to be ERASED from all non-catalan wikipages.

I am described to have Anti-Catalanism ideologies". Well, D'oh!, this is what is all about. Preventing you, Pan-Catalanists to poison the english wikipedia with your "à la carte" history.

Maurice27 20:09, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Sardana, tió de nadal, etc. http://www.andorra.es/diciembre.htm http://www.andorra.com/portal/associac/default.asp http://www.andorra.com/portal/lleure/nadal.asp

There is not any colla castellera yet :) ... I would also like to have relevant Andorran people included, as well. Toniher 20:30, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Do you really think your answer can be described as serious? Please, answer to all that I'm asking! Maurice27 03:30, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

And do you think your contributions can be considered serious? Here you showed your hate agains anything related with Catalan. I think you are not the best person to judge if a Catalan-speaking world table fits or not in this article.

Btw, I think it perfectly fits there since it is a table about territories with the Catalan language and Andorra is actually the ONLY independent country with Catalan as the only official language. If you disagree with the elements on the list, here is the best place to discuss it, not deleting the table from the article.--Xtv - (my talk) - (que dius que què?) 12:32, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tobacco

I remember reading that tobacco growing is actually a ruse. Andorran tobacco is bad quality, but when it is harvested, it is burnt, and the Andorran authorities allow the (duty-free?) importing of an equivalent amount of foreign quality which is then sold. --84.20.17.84 10:57, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

There is certainly something very dodgy about Andorra and its tobacco trade:

"...Andorra is important because it illustrates the role of the tobacco industry. Andorra was not only supplying illegal cigarettes to the Spanish market but also to the United Kingdom. Exports from the United Kingdom to Andorra (which has a population of only 63 000) increased from 13 million cigarettes in 1993 to 1 520 million in 1997. Since few of these cigarettes were legally re-exported and Andorran smokers do not generally smoke British brands, then either each Andorran (including children and non-smokers) was smoking 60 British cigarettes a day in 1997 or these cigarettes were being smuggled out of Andorra..."[11]

If someone has got the time, the economy section could be expanded with some details on this. Regards, --Asterion^talk 22:37, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Location maps available for infoboxes of European countries

[edit] WikiProject... Spain?

I find strange that Andorra is part of the WikiProject France, but as they say, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to France, Andorra, and Monaco and in fact, the President of France is co-prince of Andorra..., ok, Andorra is included. However, I don't see anywhere in WikiProject Spain that they say they will work also in Andorra and I wouldn't understand such a relation. Could someone explain me it, please?--Xtv - (my talk) - (que dius que què?) 00:14, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Because 43% of the population is spanish. Because the militar defence of Andorra is shared in part by Spain. Because Andorra took a mayor role for spanish refugees during the civil war. Because an enormous part of the skying in the northern half of the iberian peninsula takes place in Andorra. Because Andorra is a mayor investment target for spanish tourism-related business... Need more? Maurice27 00:18, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes. Of course there are many relations between Andorra and Spain, but Andorra is not in Spain. There are also many relations between Spain and Latin-America and I don't see Perú being part of the project. Anyway, I was just suprised, of course you can contribute also, but you could do at least like the French and in the Project mention why do you include it. --Xtv - (my talk) - (que dius que què?) 03:25, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, I'm not the one who did and/or included that template, so I can't answer to you. And sadly, no one is willing to do a "Wikiproject: Articles related to Spain but which do not refer to spanish territory"... Maurice27 03:45, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Aranese?

I think once I heard that one of the Andorra comuns was Aranese speaking. I never heard that again so it may well be a misunderstanding from my side or a just a gaffe. But if that was true and someone can confirm it, it may be interesting to add this info. Mountolive | Talk 23:21, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Aranese is not spoken nor used in Andorra Jmm1 12:15, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Shared language.

Many users in this article are trying to hide any mention of Catalonia or Catalan language or culture in Andorra. Specially now, where the text in a demographics section has been edit and all references about the common language with catalonia has been deleted. Please, stop mixing politics and ideologies with an objective explanation.

Around the world, people doesn't really know the reality of catalan language in catalonia and other places in south europe. This article is short enough to add this important info.

It says the official tongue is Catalan. What's the problem? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Brianlandeche (talk • contribs) 06:49, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] official language

I don't know if it is the above anon user or another one who keeps pushing "the official language is Catalan, shared by Catalonia, Valencia, Balearic islands and other territories" but it could well be, as he is very concerned in "the reality of Catalan language in Catalonia and other places in south Europe". Anyway, to whoever is pushing that version, please note that:

• the article is not about Catalan language and its distribution. It's about Andorra.
• I don't see in similar articles "the official language of Monaco is French, shared with France, parts of Belgium, parts of Switzerland and many other territories". Nor I see "the official language of Liechtenstein is German, shared with Germany, Austria and parts of Switzerland". Nor I see "the language of San Marino is Italian, shared with Italy".

It just doesn't make sense. Nor it makes sense here. I think is quite obvious.

ps. by the way, the anon user apparently refers to this edit as "vandalism"...I honestly can't see why.. Mountolive | Talk 16:54, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

I think it's obviously not the same situation with Andorra and with all the contries you said. Is Monaco the only recognized Country with French as the only official language? I think it is quite strange situation that a language as Catalan is the only official language only in one of the smallest territories where it is spoken, and I think it's interesting to remark this situation (and I find Andorra, being THE country with this very singularity, perfectly suitable to have this remark in its article). Finaly, I find (again) your comparisons quite bad, since German, French and Italian, having an independent country behind the language, don't need a presentation anywhere. Catalan however... who knows what's Catalan?--Xtv - (my talk) - (que dius que què?) 17:35, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

As Mountolive said, "the article is not about Catalan language and its distribution. It's about Andorra." If someone wants to know what catalan is, he should go to the catalan article. IMHO, Listing all the places where catalan is spoken HAS TO GO in the catalan article. Maurice27 17:41, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Xtv, I don't know who knows what is Catalan, but whoever is interested, he only has to click on the link provided and he will learn what is Catalan and where is spoken.

If you don't like my comparisons above, you probably will like this one less, but is very illustrative ;)

If you put "Catalan, shared with Catalonia, Valencia, the Balearic islands and 'other territories'" is like if I was introduced to someone and he said "Hi, I'm Andorran, but my penis is not small, it has an average size" do you know what I mean? (if people keeps pushing for strange redactions finally I will have to surrender a bit to Maurice's theory hehehe)

Now more seriously speaking: even from a Catalanist POV, you should appreciate the fact that your language is normal and doesn't need further explanation nor further justifications, like "hey, it is shared with this and that and that" because normal languages don't need this. If you make the unrequested explanation, it sounds like Catalan is actually a smaller language than it is, do you know what I mean?

Mountolive | Talk 18:21, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Are we allowed to say penis? Maurice27 19:39, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

probably not :D Mountolive | Talk 21:19, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

I have a weird feeling if we start thinking about each other penises... ;) Maurice27 21:52, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

No way! Weirrrrrrrrd indeed, man :D Mountolive | Talk 21:57, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Why would you want to talk about penises anyway? Catalan is the official language in Andorra. The Andorran government has to work quite hard to gat people to use it, given the large immigrant population and the general knowledge of several other languages, but its official status is a fact. Catalan is also an official language in the autonomous community of Catalonia and (under the name of Vlaencian) in the Communidad Valenciana. Do you wish to be constructive or disruptive? Physchim62 (talk) 14:12, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Your statement about the andorran government having problems to gat people to use catalan is not founded. Andorran education is given completely in catalan except the lective hours of "foreign languages". English is mandatory and students may choose between Spanish and French as a second foreign language. Everything in Andorra except tourism-related businesses use catalan as the main language. Wanting to make sure that every article of the so called "catalan-speaking world" explains every single place where catalan is spoken (which BTW, besides Andorra and Catalonia is almost everywhere spoken by less the 50% of the population) is just a matter of the size of our penises. Maurice27 15:50, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

My comment was based on a news report on TV3, which did not give the same image of Catalan usage as you do. I really don't see what penises have to do with Andorra. Physchim62 (talk) 13:25, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

I can't see pretty well that you don't know Andorra... (Nor Roussillon). Didn't your parents tell you that you don't have to believe all that you see on TV? Even more if you are talking about a biased channel like TV3... A channel which allows this [[12]], without requesting excuses and whose TV host laughs while the audience applauds at the comments. A complete inadecuate based news report. It's all about penises and "cojones" Maurice27 15:53, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

And you expect to convince people with that sort of argument? Physchim62 (talk) 15:59, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Hey, guys, stop it, please. That is my fault for using a wrong (but very illustrative, I believe) example. Let's just please finish the genitalia for now. Mountolive | Talk 17:29, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm just telling that stating anything "because you saw it on TV", is just not proper from an admin in wikipedia. I was not trying to convince anybody, I was disassembling your argument. There is a little "difference"... Maurice27 21:52, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

You can have the equivalent from the Andorran government (click on El català a Andorra, then La llengua d'Andorra to reach the document I am referring to, all translations are my own)...

"The Andorran case offers, to say the least, the particularity that the official language is not a widespread language, as could be Spanish, French or English, and, on the other hand, a very high percentage of the population is composed of people originating from Spain, Portugal or France" (3rd para)

"In 1940, foreigners represented 17% of the population; in 1989 this was 75.7%, and currently it is around 66%." (4th para)

"Currently, and continuing the negative evolution which was already obeserved in 1989, Catalan is the mother tongue of 29.9% of the population, 12.9% less than in the 1995 survey" (8th para)

"In parallel, the proportion of of the population with Portuguese as the mother tongue has notably increased, principally as a result of the immigratory flux in recent years." (9th para)

and so on... It took me much less time to find this document than it did for Maurice27 to vulgarly accuse me of bad faith. Physchim62 (talk) 12:42, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Property Tax

Does Andorra have a propety tax? If so, how high is it? Zachorious 05:57, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't think so, as the Andorran tax system is mostly based on indirect taxation (e.g. sales taxes, customs duties, etc), which allows it to tax the tourists as well as the residents. There is a tax levied when real estate changes hands (Impost sobre transmissions patrimonials immobiliàries): unfortunately, the Finance Ministry web site has posted the wrong law on the relevant link, so I can't see how high it is! Physchim62 (talk) 00:43, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Andorra Co-Princes

I'm not very sure, but how come there are 2 co-princes? Chunchuan 09:50, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Tradition holds that Charlemagne granted a charter to the Andorran people in return for their fighting the Moors. Overlordship of the territory passed to the local count of Urgell and eventually to the bishop of the diocese of Urgell. In the eleventh century a dispute arose between the bishop and his northern neighbour over Andorra.

In 1278, the conflict was resolved by the signing of a paréage, which provided that Andorra's sovereignty be shared between the count of Foix (whose title would ultimately transfer to the French head of state) and the bishop of La Seu d'Urgell, in Catalonia, Spain. This gave the small principality its territory and political form. --Maurice27 17:11, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

From the Andorran Government site:

• 839: earliest surviving document concerning Andorra, granting it to the Count of Urgell
• 988: Andorra transferred to the Bishop of Urgell in exchange for territories in Cerdanya (the neighbouring valley)
• 1176: population of Andorra recognizes the sovereignty of the Bishop of Urgell
• 12th & 13th centuries: conflicts between the Bishops of Urgell and

1. first the Counts of Urgell, during which the Counts of Foix aid the Bishops and gain de facto sovereignty over Andorra;
2. then the Counts of Foix, over the question of de jure sovereignty

• 1278 and 1288: two pareages establish the principle of joint sovereignty by the Count of Foix and the Bishop of Urgell

The sovereignty of the Counts of Foix eventually passed to the Kings of France, and then to the Presidents of the French Republic (in a personal capacity). Physchim62 (talk) 00:35, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Thank you! :) Chunchuan 07:35, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Co-Prince/Princess?

If a female is elected as French President, what will her title be? (co-)prince or (co-)princess of Andorra?

I don't know for sure, but I would imagine that she would be referred to as the Prince. Such titles are not usually modified for gender in Romance languages, and the title is fixed in the Constitution of Andorra. We could ask Mme Royal how she would like to be referred to, but I guess that (at the time of writing this comment) she has other things to worry about! Physchim62 (talk) 12:53, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Which titles are not modified for gender in romance languages? (príncipe-princesa [es], príncep-princesa [cat], prince-princesse [fr], principe-principessa [it])?--the Dúnadan 18:55, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I was thinking more of the position of the Académie française, where the title of an official position is always masculine, hence "Madame le ministre". If you know of an opinion from the IEC, please quote it: in any event, we won't have an official reply unless it happens! Physchim62 (talk) 14:45, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

It will be co-princess: the Andorra government required the Institut d'Estudis Catalans to admit the femenine "coprincesa" in the entry "copríncep" as you can see here. --Xtv - (my talk) - (que dius que què?) 10:02, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Language

Has it sense to add in the table, in the official language place that Spanish, Portuguese, French and English are also spoken? well, surelly there is also people who speak arabic and russian, but the only official language is Catalan. Of course Spanish and French are understood also by most of the population but... even if Portuguese is spoken by a big minority, I wouldn't say it fits here. And English is also spoken by most of the population of the Netherlands but I wouldn't write in the infobox that information. I think here should be said only that Catalan is THE official language and then, in the article we can talk about the comprension of other languages of the inhabitants of Andorra...--Xtv - (my talk) - (que dius que què?) 01:09, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

It seems to me that French and Spanish should be mentioned, but English and Portuguese should not. john k 02:54, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. We see a lot of portuguese in Andorra. --89.180.141.56 14:51, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

I would tend to agree with the anon user above. The knowledge of Portuguese in Andorra is something that should be mentioned and explained, because it wouldn't be expected by the average reader. Physchim62 (talk) 17:27, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

In the Culture section already is said "Portuguese is also noticeable". It is already mentioned (perhaps should be better explained) but this is not a fact for the infobox.--Xtv - (my talk) - (que dius que què?) 12:39, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Governor-Generals

Shall we put in the governor-generals who represent the co-princes to the infobox and to politics section? 01:43, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

The French Governor-General (the Préfet of the Pyrénées-Orientales) changes quite often, and we don't really have the capacity to keep these things up to date on en:, so I would say no. Physchim62 (talk) 11:37, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

By the way, the plural is 'Governors-General'. Jordi22 20:31, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Monarchy or Republic?

I was just wondering what your thoughts are on whether Andorra should be considered a monarchy or republic. Several sources describe it as a republic, but the idea of a country with two princes as heads of state being a republic seems a bit odd to me, even if they are non-hereditary. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jordi22 (talk • contribs) 20:31, August 20, 2007 (UTC).

Queen Elizabeth II is technically the United Kingdom's Head of State. Would this lead you to say that the United Kingdom is a monarchy? 71.112.2.145 02:49, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Andorra is NOT a republic, but a principality, so it's a monarchy like United Kingdom (sorry, but UK is a monarchy). Both are a constitutional monarchy, so the parliament and the government have political power. Skafa^{Tell me} 18:08, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

To tell the truth, Andorra is not a monarchy, because "monarchy" means "government of one" in Greek. Being two princes who run the country, I think that Andorra's government should be referred to as "diarchy" (government of two).--Gspinoza (talk) 18:02, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't think this is true. The word 'monarchy' has long since lost its exact Greek meaning, otherwise the UK would have been a "diarchy" during the reign of William III and Mary II. Also, republics where there is one sole ruler, or dictator, would be monarchies. Saddam Hussein was the one sole ruler of Iraq, but this did not make him a monarch. Jordi22 (talk) 00:37, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Just a technical matter. Hussein was not called monarch, because he called himself "president", but was a monarch indeed.--Gspinoza (talk) 10:56, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Hussein was a dictator, not a monarch. A monarch is either elected (elective monarchy, like Vatican City) or inherits the throne, as in most monarchies. A dictator typically seizes power in a coup d'etat, as Saddam Hussein did. Andorra is a constitutional monarchy (the form of monarchy is principality) but is also a democratic nation. The two are not mutually exclusive. The UK, Canada, New Zealand, The Netherlands, Sweden, Spain, and Norway, among others, are all constitutional monarchies and democracies, as is Andorra.RockStarSheister (talk) 22:33, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed New Section: In Popular Media

There appears to be no section about Andorra in Popular Media. While I don't think it alone justifies a section if there's no other references, the Onion had a parody video today titled "Nation Of Andorra Not In Africa, Shocked U.S. State Dept. Reports." The link is at http://www.theonion.com/content/video/nation_of_andorra_not_in_africa.

If anyone knows of enough other references in popular media (i.e. famous literary characters, settings in movies or novels, etc) that would justify this new section, it would be worth including this Onion video.

--KNHaw ^(talk) 00:24, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Latin Europe

Hello Andorra! There is a vote going on at Latin Europe that might interest you. Please everyone, do come and give your opinion and votes. Thank you. The Ogre (talk) 20:30, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] GOOD

Earl Carr loves this page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Staronguitar (talk • contribs) 21:36, 18 March 2008 (UTC)