Talk:Ancient Order of Hibernians

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Northern Ireland, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to Northern Ireland on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
Start	This article has been rated as Start-Class on the assessment scale. (If you rated the article please give a short summary at comments to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article.)
High	This article is on a subject of High-importance for Northern Ireland-related articles.
Article Grading: The article has been rated for quality and/or importance but has no comments yet. If appropriate, please review the article and then leave comments here to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article and what work it will need.
WikiProject Northern Ireland tasks: Here are some open WikiProject Northern Ireland tasks: Places: Mussenden Temple and Downhill Demesne, Devenish Island Monastic Site, Killyclogher, Derryvore Landmarks: The Skerries (Northern Ireland), Black Pig's Dyke, Helen's Tower Parks and gardens: Events: Ulster Cup, Ulster hockey People: Alison Campbell, Paul Charles (novelist), Paula Clamp, Max Clendinning, Colin Cooper (academic), Newton Emerson, Lucy Evangelista, Robert Hall (doctor), Shauna Gunn, Sophie Hoopman, H Douglas Keith, Charles Michael Lavery QC, Henry Lavery, Francis Maginn, Jim Malley, Catherine Jean Milligan, Phillip McCallen, Robert MacDonnell, Joseph Tomelty, Gayle Williamson, Zane Radcliffe, Professor Richard Rose, Brian Baird (newsreader) Newspapers/Magazines: Fortnight Magazine 'Schools/Colleges: Glenola Collegiate School, Our Lady and St Patrick's College, Belfast Boy's Model School, St. Columbanus' College, Streets: Rivers: River Bush, River Mourne, River Moyola, River Roe Organisations: Industrial Development Board, Forest Service Northern Ireland, Rivers Agency Northern Ireland, Invest NI, Roads Service Northern Ireland, Child Support Agency (NI), Boundary Commission for Northern Ireland, District Policing Partnerships, Compensation Agency, Office of the Oversight Commissioner, Electoral Office for Northern Ireland, Northern Ireland Housing Executive, Central Services Agency, Northern Ireland Blood Transfusion Service, Census Office in Northern Ireland, Northern Ireland Statistics and Research Agency, Cameron Commission, Hunt Committee, Stanley Leisure, Ormo, Sunblest (currently re-directs) History: Rose Report, History of Armagh, History of Newry, History of Lisburn Buildings: Belvoir Park Hospital, Guildhall, Derry Major topics: Geography of Northern Ireland, Geology of Northern Ireland, Integrated Education Edit or discuss this list.

	Ireland Portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Ireland, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to Ireland on Wikipedia. For more information, or to get involved, visit the project page.
Start	This article has been rated as Start-Class on the Project's quality scale. (If you rated the article please give a short summary at comments to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses.)
High	This article has been rated as High-importance on the priority scale.

Contents 1 Branches in Ireland 2 Anti-protestant? 3 NPOV 4 Support for the Anti-protestant argument and Clarifying the difference between the AOH in America and the AOH in Ireland 5 Worldwide Membership? 6 Historical background 7 Marching Season 8 Removed unsourced sentence

[edit] Branches in Ireland

The AOH also has a large number of branches in Ireland itself. - from the article.

It does? Is there any evidence we can point to to support this? - Pete C ^✍ 22:23, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

I have been to several of the AOH halls in Derry and have shirts from the Hall in Derry. There are AOH halls in Derry, Belfast, Dublin and Galway that I know of. The AOH state chapter as it were is know as the Board of Erin. They have votes at the National Convetion just like any other state. Contact information can be found by contacting the national office.

[edit] Anti-protestant?

What's the factual basis for the statement that the AOH is anti-protestant?

Repeated assertions by commentators: [1][2][3]. -Willmcw 22:26, August 11, 2005 (UTC)

Commentaries are opinions, not facts. AOH was not founded as an anti-Protestant organization. If some criticize AOH as being anti-Protestant, then the article should read "Its critics accuse it of anti-Protestantism." That was done for the article on the organization's alleged counterpart, the Orange Order [4]. --Brianf 20:22:17, 2005-08-12 (UTC)

Do we have their founding documents? If not, how do we know what their founding purpose was? Thanks, -Willmcw 20:09, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

If we don't have founding docs, better to make hedged assertions (a la, "some say," "critics say," or "it seems that" they are anti-Protestant, than to ascribe a definite founding purpose or guiding principle, willmcw. It's far worse to make a positive unfounded assertion--"they are anti-protestant," which thus far appears to be only commentary/opinion--than to fail to make an assertion which may be true.

I have also been to several AOH Halls in Ireland. IF you look at the website www.aoh.com you can find contct information for a few halls under Pride of Erin. Which is the state board for Ireland

[edit] NPOV

I made changes that makes this article a little more NPOV. Anti-protestant comment not removed, just changed.

Roodog2k 17:00, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

One more change to illustrtate that the "mixture of religon and politics" and its similarity in that regard with the Orange Order leads to "critisized for being anti-protestant". Also, its better style (IMHO) that way around. 166.20.114.10 19:36, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Oops... that was me! Roodog2k 19:37, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

That formula ("has been called...") is fine, but is is not due to being comparable to the Orange Order. -Willmcw 20:13, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

Fair enough. The point I was making was that "Its mixture of religion and politics" leads to the accusation of being anti-protestant (which is akin to the Orange Order being accused of being anti-catholic)" That is what I was saying. I'll change it thusly. Roodog2k 10:32, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

I these latest changes make the article even more NPOV and more accurate. 1) I removed a reference to the Orange Order, since the AOE is largest population is in the USA. 2) I added a statement that is the other side of the argument wrt anti-protestant. Roodog2k 10:51, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Support for the Anti-protestant argument and Clarifying the difference between the AOH in America and the AOH in Ireland

Since Will was looking for documentation supporting the anti-protestant thread (I saw what you deleted, it was a good question : ) ), this is from the AOH in America website:

The A.O.H. has been at the forefront on Irish issues such as: Immigration Reform, Peace with Justice in a United Ireland; ....

This statement can be arguably considered "anti-protestant" in that the AOH in America has taken a pro-Republican stance. Remeber, this is an AMERICAN organization, so with regards to the sectarian issues in Ireland, I beginning to think that we need to further qualify this "anti-protestant" statment. Now, in the United States, I seriously doubt that there is anything to indicate an "anti-protestant" outside the Anglo-Irish-American political arena.

Further, according to the website, the AOH in America is a seperate but related organization to its Irish 'cousin'. I think we may need further clarification in that as well.

Thoughts?

166.20.114.10 16:01, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Dang, the above contribution is mine. Forgot to login.

Roodog2k 16:02, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure that the organization's own statements can be taken at face value, nor do they necessarily reflect their original purpose. But we can certainly write that that is what they say. As for the U.S. and Irish branches, I agree that treating them separately within the same article may be the best route. Though nominally the same organization, the branches have divergent histories. Cheers, -Willmcw 18:39, August 18, 2005 (UTC)

Taking their statement at face value is perfectly fine, with certain qualifications if you want to be NPOV. When the organization says that they support a "United Ireland" there is a certain connotation there. No matter what, both sides of any issue should be presented, and its often best to have a 1st degree source. You can say "On one hand, the AOH says A. On the other hand, we have B." Despite my Catholic background, which I freely admit on my talk page, I am skeptical of the AOH in America and their political views on Ireland. As an American, I don't think its any of our business to get involved.Roodog2k 18:59, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

The AOH is not anti-Protestant because of its association with Irish nationalist politics, it is because of its conflation of Catholicism with Irish nationalism. This rules or attempts to rule out Protestant involvement in nationalist politics, which further deepens the already stark politico-religious divisions in Ireland. The Orange Order's conflation of Protestantism with unionism has the same effect, if to a different degree. While technically they may be separate organisations, the AOH has cross-membership in the States and Ireland, and was established in Ireland by returned emigrants.

Lapsed Pacifist 06:33, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

You put that very well, although I was trying to draw a distinction between different flavors of being "anti-protestant". The AOH in America does not seem to have a broad anti-protestant agenda with regards to other protestant groups in the United States. With regards Ireland and Norther Ireland, this is a very arguable point. The claim of the AOH being "anti-protestant", as previously described in the article, however, implied very strongly that the AOH was against all protestant groups in general, including within the United States which is not accurate. The anti-protestant claim must be qualified in its proper context, which is why I said it was not NPOV. Roodog2k 19:05, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Worldwide Membership?

Is there any information suggesting there is membership outside both America and Ireland? If the membership stipulates one has to be of Irish descent, couldn't there be members/associations in other countries? i.e There are large Irish immigrant populations in Scotland, England, Australia etc 82.31.33.178 14:54, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I have heard there are lodges in Glasgow ( which has a sectarian tradition in any case ). 145.253.108.22 09:44, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Historical background

I think the historical background section at the beginning should be reworded, because I found it very confusing, especially this part: His part of Ireland was called Laois, and had been settled by the Catholic Queen Mary in the 1550s. Accordingly O'Moore's revolt against this settlement in the next decade took on a religious aspect.

So, O'Moore's part of Ireland was Laois? I think that's unclear due to the previous line. Also, was he rebelling against the settlement established by a Catholic queen? How does that fit in with the AOH's goal of being a society for the protection of Catholic interests?66.230.72.51 18:16, 9 July 2007 (UTC)Rachel

I think the referenced article is completely wrong. Rory O'More was the local chieftain, and his family had been there for centuries. They had nothing to do with the 'Clanna Rory' of Ulster. In 1553-58 the (very Catholic) Mary of England settled County Laois (renamed Queen's County) with English settlers, and also the next door County Offaly as "King's County" named after her husband Philip II of Spain. So O'More's loss was an English-Irish matter and not a Catholic-Protestant dispute. I'm amazed that the encyclopedia could get it so wrong, but our Irish-American cousins aren't good at the minutiae of history. In fact Mary was the last sovereign Catholic queen of Ireland. The AOH was set up centuries later.Red Hurley 16:21, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

And looking further, Radclyffe's (Sussex's) family were the very Catholic dukes of Norfolk (who still are). The Defenders were set up in the 1780s in another part of Ireland. And why would O'More describe his brand-new group as "ancient"? Sounds like yet another American group needing to invent an ancient past to wow its new members. The encyclopedia was drafted in 1910 which says it all.Red Hurley 16:36, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Marching Season

In the absense of any supporting evidence I've removed the section relating to controversial AOH marches.

[edit] Removed unsourced sentence

The AOH had a historical concept of itself as a continuation of the 1641 rebellion, a Catholic uprising which attempted to wipe out the Protestant Plantations of Ireland and to extirpate heresy (by which was meant Protestantism) in Ireland.

I removed this sentence because it wasn't sourced and had been like that for about six months. I think that with the removal of that last unsourced statement that this article is finally "cleaned up". P.Haney 20:53, 19 August 2007 (UTC)