Talk:Ancient Greek

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[edit] Roman alphabet

I noticed the Grammar section of this article has all the Greek transliterated into the Roman alphabet. I really think that the Greek alphabet should be used; any thoughts on this? I don't think I'd feel comfortable doing the transliteration, since Koine Greek is the type of Greek I'm used to.  –Benjamin  (talk)  03:22, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Ablative Case

Does Ancient Greek not have an ablative case like Latin? If not, how would they use prepositions such as "in," "for," "by," and "with?" Christopher 04:51, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

No, the ablative case uses get put in different cases. Prepositions take the accusative, dative, or genitive depending on the preposition. Instead of an ablative absolute like in Latin, there's a genitive absolute. Etc. 69.5.132.235 03:50, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
Wouldn't 'of' be used with the genitive, 'to/for' with the dative, and no preposition with the accusative, since it denotes the object of the sentence? Where do 'in' and 'by' and 'with' fit in? Also, out of curiosity, how is a genitve absolute translated? Christopher 03:41, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
That is a very rough approximation. But in fact most ancient Greek prepositions can be used with all three cases, and have a different array of meanings with each case. Septentrionalis 04:02, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

There are fragments of the IE locative case in AG, and that is also one of the sources of the Latin ablative; but not in any other sense of "ablative". Septentrionalis 04:02, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

And such fragments of cases like θεν, φι, δε, etc? In Mycenaen -φι was almost a regular feature of the languageBruno Gripp 23:28, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

I'll have to confirm with my copy of Smyth, however -φι- is a non-productive instrumental ending (compare Latin plural dative/plural ablative 3rd declension noun ending -ibus.)
It should be noted that Ancient Greek ablative merged with the genitive, and so did the prepositional functions (so when you express an idea such as motion away from, you use the genitive--a notion of motion generally reserved for the ablative in other IE languages). Echternacht 12:54, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Actually, φι seems to be a regular feature of mycaenaean greek and is quite present in Homeric, Lesbian and "hard" doric of Alcman, egg. σὺν ὄχεσφι, Μῶσα ὠρανόφι. Its an important feature of the Greek language, not, for sure, from attic, and I don't know wheater this article should mention this suffixes or not.

[edit] To be added by someone

Lexical details: a discussion (with examples) of loanwords into ancient Greek (such as from Persian, etc.); and a discussion with examples of the (presumably) pre-Indo-European/non-Indo-European words in the lexicon, etc. Zipped through the article and didn't notice these topics mentioned. Alexander 007 09:37, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

The non-IE, pre-Hellenic vocabulary is present in a great part of the Attic vocabulary (including most toponyms) and it's consider part of the Greek language. It should be mentioned in Proto-Greek in order to point out the transition to Mycenaean Greek. As for the loan words into Ancient Greek from Persian, I've never heard about it. Do you have any examples? Miskin 19:00, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

I disagree. Proto-Greek is unattested, so lexical items (e.g., the actual words themselves) cannot be listed there except in a totally hypothetical sense. And if a given word is not attested in Mycenean, again that would not be the right place for such a lexical item. Many non-IE Greek words are not attested in Mycenean yet. As for loanwords---I said such as from Persian, not only from Persian, though there are several from Persian also. From Persian: magos, which after borrowed became a part of regular vocabulary and came to have the general meaning of "wizard" or "enchanter" (see Perseus); from Egyptian: baris, a flat-bottomed boat. From some Semitic language: kamēlos, "camel". Many more. Alexander 007 19:16, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

I don't want anyone to write up an exhaustive list, but a discussion with a number of examples given seems fine. Alexander 007 19:41, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

The pre-Hellenic vocabulary that was assimilated by Mycenaean and Ancient Greek is not considered by anyone as a "loan". However I agree that it should be mentioned in both Mycenaean and Ancient Greek articles as an important transition factor from Proto-Greek. Proto-Greek doesn't really have an attested vocabulary but in most cases linguists are able to distinguish the Ancient or Mycenaean vocabulary that does not derive from it. "Mag-os" has a PIE root and I don't know whether it can safely be assumed as a Persian loanword. The case of "kamelos" and the various Semitic loanwords should be at some point explicitely mentioned, but I wouldn't give them the highest priority. Miskin 13:18, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

True. Magos is traced back to a PIE root. But it is traced back to PIE *magh-, "to have power". According to my table of sound-changes from PIE to Proto-Greek, PIE gh became the chi sound in Greek. And sure enough, Doric machos ("a device, a remedy, a means") and Attic mechos (id.) are traced back to PIE *magh-os <PIE *magh-. Magos is from the same root, but unanimously considered to be from Persian magush. Another anc. Gk. Persian loan is angaros, which came to have the general meaning of "courier". The Greek cognate is angelos. Alexander 007 13:32, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Consonant system

The transition from aspirated plosives to fricatives occured during the time covered by Koine Greek. Therefore, the consonant system of Ancient Greek cannot be equated with that of Modern Greek. For a full discussion, see Talk:Ancient Greek pronunciation. Andreas 21:30, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Caragounis and other linguists and classicists say that the fricatives theta, fi and hi were always fricatives since the time of the first Greek inscrptions. Caragounis has presented plenty of evidence to show that the fricatives were fricatives in both Greek and Latin when the Greeks colonised Italy in the 8th century BC therefore you cannot claim that the Erasmian pronouncation is either Classical or Ancient Greek pronunciation nor can you fix a date to it as 5th century. --Thrax 16:10, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
Thrax: Please do not start this whole discussion again. Your arguments have already been amply discussed in Talk:Ancient Greek pronunciation. Andreas 00:05, 12 November 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Ancient greek subordination rules and verbs meaning

I ask help to clean this part of the article , anyone who has grasp with some greek syntax is well accepted . Philx Philx 14:07, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

A section on subordination rules and aspect represents a bit of a challenge for a relatively short encyclopaedia article. Nevertheless, I suggest a treatment in three sub-sections:

  • A general overview of greek tenses and moods where the tenses and moods are enumerated and a satisfactory definition of aspect is given.
  • A treatment of the main uses of tenses and moods in principal clauses with examples. These examples will clarify what we mean by aspect.
  • A treatment of the use of tense and mood in subordinate clauses where the main verb is in a
    • primary tense, or a
    • secondary tense (This is where all the funny stuff happen).

To do this properly will be quite a challenge...Yannos 21:50, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] hellenikos

I am puzzled about the word Ελληνικός. Is this supposed to be how Ancient Greeks were naming their language? This seems to be an adjective to me, and why masculine? Would it not be better to say ʽΕλληνική γλώττα? In any case, this is the name of the Greek language as a whole, not just the stage in the history of the Greek language corresponding to Classical Antiquity. A source would be needed. Andreas 22:15, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Herodotus, writing in the New Ionic dialect, consistently refers to the Greek language as Hellēnōn glōssan or less often Hellada glōssan or Hellada. What's the intention by the way, to transcribe how ancient Greeks referred to their language? That would probably be a list of terms.Alexander 007 00:27, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

I thought it was blatant to everybody that we've been using exonyms to describe the stages of the Greek language (and any language for that matter). If we had wanted to call the articles by the original language names, then we wouldn't have much of a choice:

  • Ancient and Koine Greek: Ελληνική
  • Byzantine and Modern Greek: Ρωμαϊκή

And obviously that would be inaccurrate. As Andreas said, 'Ελληνικός' is completely wrong because it's in masculin adjective form, and the noun that it refers to is of feminin gender (γλώσσα=language). "Ελληνική γλώττα" (Greek language) is also inaccurrate because it's a very general term written in Attic. Plain "Ελληνική" is already in use by the Greek language article, and it can also be confused with Koine Greek. Hellēnōn glōssan, is simply the noun Hellēn put into plural genitive, followed by Ionic glossa in singular accusative, signifying "Greeks' language". Hellada glossan (Greece language) means nothing on its own, it probably ties up with a dative in the rest of the sentence. I think the best thing would be the use of a capitalized 'ΕΛΛΗΝΙΚΗ' or the post-classic Greek term "Αρχαία Ελληνική" (Ancient Greek), or better yet nothing. Miskin 19:54, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

"I thought it was blatant to everybody that we've been using exonyms to describe the stages of the Greek language (and any language for that matter)"---mine was actually a valid question: are we looking to include an autonym(s) for the language in the article (of course, not User:Thorri's choice, which is as weird as using Romaikos to refer to the Latin language). I don't think Sanskrit language (Classical Sanskrit, contemporary to Ancient Greek, though still spoken) is rendering an exonym. Looks like an autonym (see Sanskrit#History). In other words, it would not be against Wiki practice to list an autonym or autonyms for "Ancient Greek" if we find authoritative sources, but that may not add much to the article. Alexander 007 02:31, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Time to split this article?

I think this article is getting unbalanced and too long. May I suggest that the grammatical sections be moved to a new article Ancient Greek grammar? --rossb 23:12, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Agreed Andreas 23:27, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Split The current article is getting too long. Many sections have too much detail. --Macrakis 23:31, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Also split. Especially the grammar section is too detailed fot an ordinary language article. Caesarion 00:21, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
    Done. The sections have been moved to Ancient Greek grammar. Caesarion 10:26, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Classification

The current classification (probably ripped from the amateur linguistics of ethnologue) is the following:

  • IE
    • Attic
      • Ancient Greek

Am I the only one who's noticing what's wrong here? Miskin 01:57, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

I guess so. Anyway, Ancient Greek was branched under one of its own dialects, I'm correcting this. Miskin 15:51, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

It's the same way with Attic-Ionic. Attic is not a subdivision of Ionic. Not only that but big northwest Greek needs to be West Greek. I'm going to change it as soon as I get a minute. What the author was shooting at is the Encyclopedia Britannica's formulation; hence "most standard." Give me a few hours and I will fix it.Dave 13:09, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Most standard formulation

Such terminology implies an author skilled enough in the subject to know what the most standard is or whether there is one. That would have to be a published professor of some years standing in the field. No offense intended but I doubt you are that, author. I would say, this sort of language would require a reference, even more than one. The article on Greek dialects is a bit more sophisticated and does not have this problem. If you have a reference I for one would love to see it, as Attic is not usually stated to be a dialect of Ionic. If not, perhaps you could make the language a little less like a red flag and more suitable to the Greek Dialects article? Thank you so much. Bonjour, Dave 12:39, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia in Ancient Greek

Is anyone interested in starting a Wikipedia in Ancient Greek?--Ravenous75 12:00, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Oh yes, this idea has been expressed several times by different people. Check meta:Requests for new languages and meta:Requests for new languages/Ancient if you want to post you request. In order to gather contributors, look what user have a grc babel box on their pages (see Category:User grc) and ask some of them). A message at the Latin village pump (la:Vicipaedia:Taberna if I'm right) would probably also be very fruitful. Especially nl:User:Gpvos is in favour of beginning a Wikipedia in ancient Greek, he'll surely concur. I probably won't: my Greek is unfortunately much worse than my Latin. Regards, Steinbach (fka Caesarion) 12:21, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Steinbach, useful info! --Ravenous75 12:58, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Far more useful to begin would probably be grc.wikisource: at the moment, we only have source texts in translation (as far as I know), which is pretty disgraceful.--Nema Fakei 13:41, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
Source texts in Ancient Greek are (together with modern Greek) in :el:wiksource, see wikisource:el:Κατηγορία:Αρχαία_και_Κλασική_γραμματεία, see also wikisource:el:ΙΛΙΑΣ. Categories are in Modern Geek and are not well organized yet (:ΙΛΙΑΣ is in no useful category), so there is still some work to be done there.   Andreas   (T) 14:03, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
Ah. I'd just posted a request, as well. Hm. Well, I'd still argue to move them, but that's a discussion for the other page.--Nema Fakei 15:54, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Definition of "pros"

I'm trying to get confirmation on the definition of the word "pros" (pi, rho, omikron, sigma, I think). I am told by one source I consider to be very reliable that the word means to, toward or going toward. Nearly every other translation has it as "with". I don't believe "pros" can ever be used as "with" as accusative or genitive and I'm fairly certain it has not other declention. Most people translate "pros" as "with" because of the biblical passage "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God..." If anyone with no theological imperative to defend could shed light on this problem I would be very appreciative.

προσ? (unsigned comment by 150.101.158.203, 2006-10-13T02:15:16)

Thanks for your interest, but Wikipedia Talk pages are not the appropriate place for queries like this. --Macrakis 02:39, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

It depends what case it takes. Pros can take a lot of different meanings depending on context and what case it takes.

[edit] Mycenaean Greek should be included

I almost changed this article just now but I noticed it seemed to be a team effort so I thought I would bring this to your attention first. Let me say first of all how pleased I am to be among you momentarily. Now to business.

Mycenaean Greek is being excluded as ancient Greek. This is wrong.

  • First of all, it does not reflect general usage. The classification of Mycenaean Greek as a dialect of ancient Greek certainly bears this out.
  • Second, splitting the supposed "ancient Greek" from Mycenaean Greek is an original proposal. No one else that I ever knew does that. It seems like a quick but wrong solutuon to a Wiki space problem or someone's over-hasty innovation. Usually scholars try to place the Mycenaean among the subsequent dialects and local cultures.
  • And, there are no events to warrant such a split. The mythology depicts a cultural continuation and the literature of the classical period asserts a continuation. There is nothing at all like the Slavic invasions and culture mixing that ended ancient Greek and started the language that was to become modern. That's right. The Slavs settled in the Peloponnesus. There was some population replacement after 1200 BC but it was of Greeks speaking one dialect of ancient Greek by Greeks speaking another.
  • Third, lumping of Mycenaean greek with Proto-Greek is not logical. Proto-Greek is entirely reconstructive, its provenience is not known, and there has to be a large time lapse between Proto-Greek and Mycenaean Greek.
  • Lastly, there is a naming problem. If Mycenaean is not ancient, just what would it be? You see, you are treading on the waters of rewriting Hellenic language history and this is not the place to do it. Mycenaean is a dialect of ancient Greek. Moreover, the rest of Wikipedia treats it that way.

This situation can be fixed with just a few sentence changes, which I was about to do. We need to drop the idea that Mycenaean is anything substantially different and put it back among ancient Greek. So, there will be a Mycenaean historical period, ca. 1400-1200 and Linear B counts as written Greek, even though only business records. This isn't going to lengthen the article because Mycenaean Greek has its own article and so does Linear B.

Thanks so much for your ear.Dave 22:41, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

I took the liberty of moving these comments to a separate section according to their importance. The question whether the term "Ancient Greek" includes Mycenaean has to be discussed. Some sources should be quoted here. If there is consensus, this cannot be "fixed with just a few sentence changes". This article would have been renamed "Classical Greek", "Ancient Greek" would have to be a disanbiguation page, and the template "History of the Greek language" has to be amended accordingly.   Andreas   (T) 00:07, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Syntax?

Anyone know anything about Ancient Greek syntax? We've got nothing. We don't even have whether it is SOV or SVO. Someone out there must know something. The bellman 10:36, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

This is a simplistic generalization, but a typical Greek sentence (if there is such a beast), like Latin, puts the verb or verbal phrase at the end. If it were that simple, though. It's not just SOV though, for instance, the beginning of the Apol. 17a, OSV - Whatever impression, men of Athens, has been made on you by my accusers, I do not know. The literal order: That by you had been felt/impressed by my accusers, not I know. This is easy syntax compared to the rest of the dialogue, particularly given the interruptions and returns in Socrate's arguments. As a highly inflected language, the subject is often within the verb (in this case "I know" is one word, oida). Like Latin, the declinations and conjugations determine the syntax rather than word order. Zeusnoos 16:32, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Do we have tag or use box showing ....

Do we have Any tag showing that i am intrested in Ancient Greek History like this one (

This user enjoys film.

).??

[edit]

[edit] Definition of "Ancient Greek" Period

Where is this definition of Ancient Greek without Koine coming from?

Koine is definitely the same language, linguistically speaking, as Homer. They are different, mutually-comprehensible (in writing at least) dialects, of the same language, which has a name.

Ancient Greek is that name. Homeric/Epic, Classical/Classical Attic, and Koine/Biblical are dialectical divisions of it.

Mycenaean, and Medieval-Modern Greek, are separate languages in the Hellenic language family which are not mutually comprehensible with Ancient Greek. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.7.2.42 (talk • contribs).

Well, the matter is somewhat controversial. In many respects, Koine is closer to modern Greek—and definitely to Byzantine Greek—than it is to classical Greek, so it's usually considered its own period. But I agree that the phrase "Ancient Greek" is ambiguous. Perhaps this article should be renamed to something like "classical Greek" instead, although it's really about both Homeric-era and classical-era Greek, but not about Koine Greek, which has its own extensive article. --Delirium 09:14, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Orthography

Allegedly Ancient Greek had no interword separation? This is not mentioned in the article, and if true the existing transliterations are misleading. There may be other interesting aspects of the othrography worth mentioning. -- Beland 19:50, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Quite right. Ancient Greek was written without punctuation, spaces, accents, breathing marks, or a capital/small distinction until much later (same is true of most languages until the Middle Ages, by the way). A 4th-century BCE text of the sample would have looked like:
  ΟΤΙΜΕΝΥΜΕΙΣΩΑΝΔΡΕΣΑΘΗΝΑΙΟΙΜΕΜΟΝΘΑΤΕΥΠΟΤΩΝΕΜΩΝΚΑΤΗΓΟΡΩΝΟΥΚΟΙΔΑΕΓΩΔΟΥΝΚΑΙΑΘΤΟΣΥΠΑΥΤΩΝ...
I've added a brief section on orthography with a pointer to the main article. --Macrakis 20:49, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Syntax

I've made a few suggestions about the treatment of syntax in general, and participles & particles in particular, at Talk:Ancient Greek grammar#Partic(ip)les. Some discussion of syntax, however brief, would be useful here too, it seems to me: it would make the language rather more interesting. --NigelG (or Ndsg) | Talk 09:55, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] proto-greek is a historical form of Greek and not a set in the classification of Greek.

Classification is not the same as history. Proto-Greek did not exist at the time when Ancient Greek was alive. Birds are not dinosaurs.  Andreas  (T) 14:08, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] What does 'Deimos' mean?

Hello, this is a request from an astronomer seeking help with Deimos (moon). This article is about a moon of Mars, called 'Deimos' (Δείμος), named after a character in the Iliad. In the article, the name is translated as both 'dread' and 'panic'. But these seem to mean quite different things ('dread' means fear that something bad might happen soon, while 'panic' means fear of something bad that is happening right now!) Which is more accurate? I would be grateful for any advice, and a reliable source would be helpful too. Rubble pile 15:31, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ancient vs. modern Greek

This article does not really address the similarities and differences between ancient and modern Greek. How similar the two are seems to be a somewhat common question. I know nothing about Greek myself (I'll spare you the cliche from Shakespeare), but I'd recommend an expert include an answer in this article. -- Mwalcoff 06:27, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

This is duscussed at Greek language#Evolution from Ancient to Modern Greek.  Andreas  (T) 12:20, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
Thanks -- that's a start, although it doesn't answer the question as to just how similar Ancient and Modern Greek are, or whether modern Greeks can understand Sophocles the way modern English-speakers can (kind of) understand Shakespeare. -- Mwalcoff 23:00, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
I give you an explanatin here, although it is more or less origina research: Modern Greeks cannot understand Sophocles, but can understand most of the New Testament, although that is in Koine Greek. Most Greeks say their prayers in New Testament Greek. Greeks would also cite sayings in ancient Greek, such as "Γνῶθι σεαυτόν". A large part of the scholarly vocabulary of Modern Greek is directly taken from Ancient Greek.  Andreas  (T) 02:26, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Thanks. Sounds like Ancient Greek is like Old English but Koine Greek is like Early Modern English to native English speakers. -- Mwalcoff 23:33, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Request for 'Actor' to be rendered in Ancient Greek

Hello. I've just added a quotation to the introductory paragraph of the article on Actor that refers to hypokrites. The original quotation says "the Greek word for actor--hypokrites (hypokrinomai)". Would someone here be kind enough to render this into the classical alphabet and place it on the article. Many thanks, DionysosProteus 20:47, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Augment and reduplication

These should be moved to Ancient Greek grammar.  Andreas  (T) 19:35, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was no copnsensus to move. Andrewa 11:14, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

Should this article actually be under the title Ancient Greek language, so as to conform to the convention used by other language articles, such as French language or German language? Robert K S 19:18, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

I support this move for the sake of conformity. --Tλε Rαnδom Eδιτor (tαlk) 23:18, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
Oppose - considering that the appendages on other languages are used to distinguish ambiguity and this isn't an article on the language, it's an article of the time period of the language. Reginmund 23:32, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
It has a language infobox and its sections include "phonology", "morphology", "sample text"... Robert K S 00:14, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Yes, but that is because it was different compared to know and readers might be curious as to the differences. Reginmund 05:33, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
So, the article is or is not about a language? Robert K S 16:48, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
It is about the phase of a language. The language article can be found here Reginmund 07:42, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose per Reginmund, although we should of course have a redirect. Unnecesary disambiguation. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:02, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Oppose. Unlike the term "Greek" -- which could either be a language or a person -- "Ancient Greek" is unambiguous; I doubt anyone would think it refers to an ancient Greek, any more than "Old High German" would refer to an octogenarian from Bonn who puts reefer in his meerschaum. --SigPig |SEND - OVER 05:11, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
Oppose, we've discussed this before. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:54, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Support to place a dab page at Ancient Greek to reference Greeks from antiquity, Ancient Greece, the Ancient period of Greek history, the language phase labelled as Ancient Greek, etc. 132.205.44.5 22:17, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

[edit] Spread

the spread of the Greek languagewanna use it?Megistias (talk) 22:24, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
Why was this removded? Its was sourced.diffMegistias (talk) 16:23, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Name in infobox

The infobox gives the name of the language in Greek: "αρχαία ελληνικά".

Now, is that really the name for Ancient Greek in Ancient Greek?

First of all, did the Ancient Greek people refer to their language as "Ancient Greek"? More likely, they referred to it simply as "Greek", or perhaps "Contemporary Greek". So why is the word "αρχαία" there?

Secondly, "ελληνικά" is Modern Greek for "Greek", not Ancient Greek! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.247.11.156 (talk) 19:04, 12 June 2008 (UTC)