Talk:An Exceptionally Simple Theory of Everything

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the An Exceptionally Simple Theory of Everything article.
Article policies
Articles for deletion This article was nominated for deletion on 2007-11-15. The result of the discussion was Snowball Keep.

Contents

[edit] Initial comments

Considering that the paper was just written and not (yet?) considered an influential paper, I'm not sure this yet deserves a Wikipedia article. Also, the title of the Wikipedia article (though I understand that it is also the title of the paper) will likely attract a lot of pseudoscience people and people claiming that it must be pseudoscience based on the title alone and the people attracted to it. In a few months perhaps, an article should be written depending on how things flesh out, but I'm sure that there should be one with the theory in such a premature state. 128.2.16.121 20:18, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

I think this deserves to stay. It is a proper scientific theory, has been widely reported on in the media, and has already garnered initial praise if not optimistic scepticism from the scientific community. I do agree however that as this theory gains steam, and is eventually tested, it will likely be renamed, and as such this page could or should be moved. For the time being though, I think it should stay as is. This will be a good repository for links, references and data as it develops. Oldsoul 20:33, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

I created this article and the article on Lisi in the hopes that physicists would add qualitative information on the theory. This paper has already grabbed the attention of many laypeople like myself, and many of us will look to Wikipedia to find answers to our questions. I agree the page will likely move, but the current title is what people will search for until the theory gains an "official" name. gnocchi

[edit] Section "Overview"

I don't have the expertise to say if this deserves to stay or not. However, the entire "overview" section is copied directly from the paper, and thus should not be in Wikipedia. If someone who is more familiar with the subject could write a summary instead, that would work much better. Crito2161 22:27, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't expect it to. I simply pasted it in order for someone to draw on when writing the summary you've mentioned. Oldsoul 22:29, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
It should at least be in quotes and cited for the time being, so it is clear that it is an excerpt. I am not, however, qualified enough in physics to write a meaningful summary of the topic. 24.19.238.74 00:54, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

That is an absolutely terrible overview; I wouldn't even want to use his text. He's being overly grandiose and talking about how a TOE should have this and a TOE should have that, but he's not really saying anything about his theory. Someone please replace the current overview with something meaningful, preferably about the topic this wiki page is supposed to be on. — Eric Herboso 01:49, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Eric, I agree. I simply put it there as a temp. place holder that others could draw from when writing a new one. Again, I'm not an expert, and will defer this to you if you wish. Oldsoul 02:19, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
It's a copyright violation to copy that much text from the paper, so I've removed it. Somebody familiar with the subject should write an overview in their own words. - Merzbow 03:07, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

I've written the summary. I am a physicist, but definitely not a particle physicist, so someone more expert than I should probably check it over. Dragons flight 08:42, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

As a non-physicist, it's an excellent summary. It seems amazing to me that since Lie groups were already being used in conjunction with the Standard Model, why didn't anyone before think of applying E8 to the whole shebang before Lisi. - Merzbow 10:11, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
Well, embedding simply for its own sake isn't really productive. It merely obscures the underlying structure. The key is that the embedding should give rise to new conclusions not available in the previous mathematical system. Lisi's certainly has the potential to do that, but for the most part he hasn't yet done so. Dragons flight 15:30, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
Yes, thank you for adding this. It gives us weekend physics geeks a good start on understanding the theory. --Gnocchi 16:22, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
Apologies for the copyright violation. Thanks a lot for improving this section. It's fantastic now! -- Oldsoul (talk) 17:43, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Lisi's theory does not provide "a solution to the problem of quantum gravity". His paper essentially describes a classical E8 field theory, components of which are identified with Standard Model and gravitational fields. Quantization isn't even mentioned until the second last paragraph, at which point he appeals to the existing procedures of QFT and LQG.

Also, I think eventually his theory will acquire a more descriptive name, like "Lisi E8 field theory" - ESToE is just the name of his paper - but we will have to wait for the down-to-earth designation to emerge from the ongoing discussions. Mporter (talk) 07:01, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

  • I considered changing "...within the mathematical framework of E8, which is the largest of the simple Lie groups" to "....which is the most complex of the finite-dimensional exceptional simple Lie groups" but yuck. I guess anyone who needs the distinction would dig deeper? But I'm uncomfortable with using "largest" to refer not to the cardinality of the group's set. Pete St.John (talk) 21:04, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Agree re largest, is A9 a larger group? --Salix alba (talk) 00:25, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
It is the largest exceptional Lie group so I changed it to that. The A, B, C, D series groups do get arbitrarily large, but they're not exceptionals precisely because they are infinite in number. Mporter (talk) 00:45, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
A9 has a larger Cartan subgroup, but has only dimension 80, compared with E8's 248. There are infinitely many simple groups of higher dimension than E8 (e.g. A16 has dimension 255). Geometry guy 00:51, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
Yeah just using the word "exceptional" is great, I like the new wording; thanks, Mporter. Pete St.John (talk) 19:16, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Criticism

This page has a rather scathing criticism of the paper. Unfortunately I'm not familiar enough with either the high-level mathematics or the physics to interpret his criticisms with any confidence. Perhaps someone else can add this to the article :-) fraggle 11:47, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Lubos Motl may be right. He is certainly a lot closer to the field than I am (my primary background is geophysics). On the other hand, he is also a bit of an eccentric at times himself, so it is hard to tell. Dragons flight 15:25, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Lubos' criticism has been met with a little distaste and disdain by other bloggers in the field:

Sabine Hossenfelder has a typically excellent posting about the paper, and Garrett has been discussing his work with people in the comment section there. Lubos Motl, has a typically, how shall I say, Lubosian posting on the topic.

I think we should de-emphasize the criticism by Lubos and emphasize the more balanced criticism of Hossenfelder. -- Oldsoul (talk) 17:41, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Problem was a stray ref tag... I fixed it. - -- Merzbow (talk) 18:34, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
Thanks Merzbow. (blush) -- Oldsoul (talk) 18:37, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Disappearing Act?

Why is the criticism section disappearing? I didn't remove it, I simply added another paragraph to it, and now, although it appears in the edit code appropriately it doesn't show up in the saved article page. (wtf)-- Oldsoul (talk) 18:07, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

I did "edit", and then "save" with no changes--and it came back. I have no idea why.---- Todd (talk) 18:46, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
The server was down for a few minutes within the last 15 minutes. Try again? -- Oldsoul (talk) 18:48, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New Particles

If I'm not mistaken, the citation that is needed for the LHC and previous statements can be attributed to the paper itself [1]?? -- Oldsoul (talk) 17:47, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

I've added two citations. -- Oldsoul (talk) 18:50, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Stub Status?

I'm thinking we can remove the stub tags, as there doesn't seem to be a whole lot more core information we can add. Obviously this will evolve as the paper is peer-reviewed, the theory is tested, and Lisi calculates the masses of those 20 new particles. Anyone else agree? -- Oldsoul (talk) 18:50, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. There is certainly a lot more than could be added, but the article is definitely looking non-stubby at this point.---- Gnocchi (talk) 20:20, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] E8 vs e8

Shouldn't this be uppercased everywhere? It seems to be uppercased in other Wikipedia articles, in the paper, on aimath.org, essentially everywhere but here as far as I can tell. - Merzbow (talk) 08:31, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Upper case is the group, lower case is the algebra. See Lie_algebras#Examples, example 4. Mporter (talk) 14:00, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
Or see E8 (mathematics)#Constructions. Mporter (talk) 14:04, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Lisi's claim of unification is not verified

I think the summary needs to be clear that the claims of unification made by the author are not verified. It is wrong to say that this paper unifies standard model and gravity. So I changed it to: His theory makes the so far unverified claim to unify all fields of the standard model with gravity using a 248 point lattice of e8 geometry.

I'm not sure you need to go so far as saying that it is unverified. I think it's good that we say that it is a 'claim', and then follow up in the overview that the theory has not yet been peer-reviewed or tested. Oldsoul (talk) 21:38, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Structure of article

I think we need to remove the reaction and criticism from the opening section and form a new, Academic reaction section with both criticism and support paragraphs. Right now we've got a whole bunch recently added to the opening paragraph which, in my estimation, should simply state that the paper has garnered both critical and positive responses from the academic community. Thoughts?Oldsoul (talk) 21:41, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Overview revisited (in laymen's terms)

This section reads like original research... I'm not saying it's inaccurate, but can we find a reliable source that says these things, and maybe cleanup the language to be more neutral? - Merzbow (talk) 06:42, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

The second section seems (appropriately, IMO) to try to informally explain the issue of Lisi combining both 1-forms and Grassman numbers in his connection (or super-connection):
However, in order to get these numbers to come out just right, Lisi's theory has to make calculations using numbers where, although it makes perfect sense geometry-wise, it makes little to no sense physics-wise. For example, at multiple points in his paper, he adds the spin value of fermions and bosons together. According to everything we know previous to this paper, you should not be able to do that. But when Lisi does, he gets the dramatic result that predicts the standard model. While detractors fault him for using techniques that strictly deviate from normal computational physics procedure, one cannot help but wonder if it is the rule, and not Lisi, that is at fault, since the theory's prediction of the standard model is too dramatic to just idly dismiss as chance.
I'm not sure that calling this "add[ing] the spin value of fermions and bosons together", as if to get some single composite spin number is quite right though. Instead, as I understand it, a better analogy would be the combining a real number and an imaginary number into a single complex number, which is neither real nor imaginary, but sometimes quite useful for describing rotations -- and something we are all quite used to, without having to ask "but how the hell can I add a scalar to a bivector?" (except sometimes maybe to make a pedagogical point [1])
Of course, as Aaron Bergman writes (Backreaction blog, 12:16pm, 16 Nov), "you can formally add whatever you want -- that's what "formal" means. The question is whether what you get is meaningful".
In QFT, normally such Grassman number fields can only appear as "ghosts" -- they can't have external lines in Feynman diagrams, so can't be identified as 'real' particles.
However, Lisi contends that "If we're working with one of the exceptional Lie groups as our gauge group, and we build a certain action, some of the ghost parts ARE, algebraically, spinor field multiplets with respect to some subgroups of the exceptional group. This means, mathematically, they are fermions" (Lisi, 11:43pm, Nov 15). In fact, asked by an anon "would this explain "why" fermions exist at all, assuming the pure gauge theory exists?" (11:31 am, Nov 16), he responds "Yes" (12:09 pm, Nov 16).
But Lisi's critics remain to be convinced. It seems Lisi's approach only works because Lisi puts in, by hand, a particular term for the action, that does not transform cleanly under the symmetries of the system (i.e. it is in itself symmetry breaking / gauge fixing). The question arises, does this make it unphysical? Or, if only this gauge produces recognisable fermions, does that signpost this choice of gauge as uniquely the only gauge that is physical? Jheald (talk) 14:32, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
Please see section below about adding back a section like this to the entry. — Eric Herboso 10:45, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Technical description and criticism

I think the following two paragraphs from Motl's and Hossenfelder's blogs are useful raw material.

Motl: "If you care how the forces and particles are supposed to be embedded into his group, it's like this. You start with a non-compact real form of E8. You embed a G2 into it. Its centralizer is a non-compact version of F4. Now, you embed the strong SU(3) into the G2 while the non-compact F4 acts as the source of a "graviweak" SO(7,1) group that contains SO(3,1), a "gauge group" that is now fashionable in the circles of amateur physicists to "describe" gravity, and SO(4), their source of cargo cult electroweak symmetry."

Hossenfelder: "Given today's status, Garrett's model does *not* naturally lead to a unification of the SM interactions with gravity (he has to chose the action by hand that contains both), it does *not* allow us to understand quantum gravity (since there's nothing said about quantization), it does *not* explain the parameters in the SM (since there isn't yet a mechanism for symmetry breaking), it does *not* explain the cosmological constant or its value (as said above, to claim there has to be one, it would be necessary to show there's no way to do it without one), it does *not* explain the hierarchy problem (and I see no way to do so), it does *not* explain why we live in a spacetime with 3 spatial and 1 timelike dimensions, it does *not* in my very humble opinion yet qualify being called a Theory of Everything."

The graviweak unification which Motl describes with scorn is here[2], and the "amateur" rewrite of gravity is Macdowell-Mansouri theory[3]. The "non-compact real form of E8" is E IX (Lisi, p.29). Hossenfelder's first criticism refers to the second two terms in equation 3.7 in Lisi's paper, which break the full E8 symmetry. Mporter (talk) 07:21, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Hossenfelder quote added. The rest I leave to someone else. Jheald (talk) 10:40, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Understand quantum gravity

A point from the article:

  • it does not allow us to understand quantum gravity (since there's nothing said about quantization),
I'm not sure what to make of that point. As far as I understood, theory describes relations and interactions (through the "action") between GR SO(3,1)and strictly quantum mechanical SU(3) and S(2)xU(1) (i.e. former two groups describe world in terms of evolution of quantum wave function). I'd think that such theory does allow to understand quantum gravity.
What is this question of "quantization" about? Does still people hope to find "quantum-particle-like" description of QM? (even knowing the Bell's theorem?) SalvNaut (talk) 17:54, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
The point being made is that it isn't really a quantum field theory (as opposed to a classical field theory) until one demonstrates that second quantization can be performed on the field, which he didn't do. Dragons flight (talk) 21:49, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for the explanation and the link. Maybe this (i.e. a sentence about second quantization) should get into the article? SalvNaut (talk) 00:11, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] A Layman's Explanation section

Due to the fact that this is all over the blogopshere, I have gotten numerous requests from my non-physics friends to explain just what this theory is all about. This article needs a section that explains, in simple terms, what his paper is getting at. It needs to explain why it is important, and why it creates a divide with physicists, where some say he's definitely wrong and others think he's gotten onto something.

A few days ago, I added a section that dealt with just that. It was then edited by a few others, and eventually was completely removed here. I understand that my writing may not have been the best, but if not by my hand, someone needs to put up a section that non-scientists can read to understand what is going on. Please don't assumethat just because you're smart enough to get what is on the page right now, that others aren't totally confused. Wikipedia is THE website people go to to try and understand these things, so we cannot let them down by not having anything put up about the theory they can understand.

I will not add anything to the main page, because I want to see if I can get consensus first, but for reference, this is what I wrote, plus additions of four others before it got taken down:

Overview revisited (in laymen's terms)
Lisi's theory is a new way of looking at old data with an old technique. What makes his theory notable is that not only does it predict all the standard model particles we know about, it also gives rise to gravity. This is a requirement for any theory of everything. But what makes it revolutionary is that it goes one step further, by actively requiring properties that we previously understood only as an accident of nature. For example, before Lisi's theory, it was known that there are three classes of fermions, but we didn't know why. Lisi's theory actually requires there to be three classes, and this may mean it is an explanation for this natural fact.[citation needed]
However, in order to get these numbers to come out just right, Lisi's theory has to make calculations using numbers where, although it makes perfect sense geometry-wise, it makes little to no sense physics-wise. For example, at multiple points in his paper, he adds the spin value of fermions and bosons together. According to everything we know previous to this paper, you should not be able to do that. But when Lisi does, he gets the dramatic result that predicts the standard model. While detractors fault him for using techniques that strictly deviate from normal computational physics procedure, one cannot help but wonder if it is the rule, and not Lisi, that is at fault, since the theory's prediction of the standard model is too dramatic to just idly dismiss as chance.[citation needed]

If content like this is not acceptable, can someone please explain how we can put an understandable section into text? Please note that another user on this very talk page, Jheald, put up examples of sourcing we can use for statements very similar to these. But no matter what is decided, some kind of section for laymen needs to be put up, if only so I can stop everyone I know from asking me about it whenever I get online. — Eric Herboso 10:45, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

I think your first sentence was on the right track in emphasizing what's not new about the theory. It's still a quantum field theory, for example - and we can link to the QFT article, if the reader wants to know what that means. Every particle is associated with a quantum field, and the fields and their interactions have symmetries.
Historically, first you had the Standard Model, then you have Grand Unified Theories which unified the forces except for gravity, then you had supersymmetric theories which unified fermions and bosons, and then you had supergravity and superstrings which included gravity in the big symmetry defining the theory. You could say that this is a Grand Unified Theory which unifies the fermions and bosons without supersymmetry, and which includes gravity without being string theory - those are some of the claims. It's a retro theory from a 1970s that never was (the 1970s were the high point for GUTs), because it uses a few mathematical ideas that didn't exist then. As physicists have generally convinced themselves that super-theories are the only way to achieve the later stages of unification, some of the dispute revolves around whether Lisi's theory is even well-defined (that was Motl's criticism) or whether it doesn't really unify (see the latest discussions at Woit's blog, about symmetry-breaking by hand).
As for the theory requiring the existence of three generations... This is probably the next claim to be discussed on the blogs. Lisi exhibits a mathematical structure and says there are the three generations, but he admits in the paper it is unclear, and the only person to comment so far on this part (Aaron Bergman) points out what may be a fatal problem. So this has to be cleared up - if it can be cleared up.
The only sense in which the theory predicts the particle masses is that it doesn't have free parameters. But it remains to be proven that the theory really does contain the three generations of fermions. If they are there, then they will have masses and those masses will come from somewhere. But so long as people don't understand how the basics are supposed to work (and it's not clear that even Lisi does), there won't be any calculations. Really, some of the claims for the theory have more to do with Lisi's optimism about what it will be capable of doing, when developed and understood. This was a common thing in the 1970s and 1980s - people hoping that particle properties would be uniquely determined by dynamics, for example, even though they couldn't perform those calculations just yet. Mporter (talk) 12:01, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
I think Mporter's point about the masses is very important. The key issue about whether or not this theory is testable is not whether or not the Large Hadron Collider is online; but the more fundamental difficulty of whether or not it is possible to predict masses with this theory at all.
The real problem with the article, IMO, is not that the article needs a bolt-on "Layman's explanation". The real problem is that the main explanation is so poor, and is little more than tangential to the main ideas, questions and controversies about the paper. The present introduction doesn't even contain the word Connection (mathematics); nor does it flag Lisi's key "crazy" [4] idea about shaping the theory so that Grassman numbers in the connection can be identified with actual fermionic fields, rather than unobservable "ghosts".
According to Lisi, this is only possible if the Connection includes transformations described by exceptional Lie algebras. Others dispute that it is possible at all. When the e8 Lie algebra is chosen, this algebra of transformations can be built up from generators that Lisi asserts interact with each other in ways that closely match the interactions of particles in the Standard Model [5]. Even if correct, however, these transformations relate to classical fields (or descriptions of them) -- it is not clear (at least not yet to me - but then I'm only a layman) how (and/or why) quantization is supposed to come in. And Lisi is only able to get the dynamics of his particles to match the Standard Model if he puts those dynamics in by hand (although he finds he can do this in a single surprisingly simple formula). These 'handmade' dynamics treat different particles/transformations in different ways - ways which do not reflect an overall E8 symmetry; but this 'by hand' symmetry breaking is essential for the different particles to have their characteristically different properties.
That's my (limited) understanding, anyway. As far as I understand, there is work relating Lie algrabras of transformations of classical fields to quantum particles, but not in as grand a setting as e8; but I don't start to know anything about it, hence my gap in understanding the quantization step above.
I don't think a separate "Layman's explanation" is a good idea; and OR - mine or anybody else's - is not good enough either. This needs to be signable-off by people who know what they are talking about.
What is needed, however, is much more informed analysis in the article of what is new in this paper; some indication of what does and what does not appear to be more solidly founded, or on the other hand more speculative/not accepted/controversial; a discussion of some of the criticisms which have led some people to react so violently against the ideas in the paper; and a gauging too of whether or not those criticisms seem to be solidly founded or well informed, in the light of the responses and rebuttals of the paper's defenders.
It seems to me that the main explanation section covers pretty well none of this at the moment, and the article is thus sorely in need of an {{expert}}.
-- Jheald (talk) 14:28, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
The symmetry of the Standard Model itself is a Lie group, so yes, the steps from symmetry group -> fields -> quantum fields is well-known, it is almost the definition of model-building outside of string theory. E8 per se is not supposed to explain the quantization step, it's just the input. But what perplexes people is that Lisi has assigned fermions and bosons to elements of E8 in a way which implies the possibility of transmutation, yet his resulting theory doesn't involve supersymmetry (and "super-Lie groups"). The possibility of such an assignment has been noted previously, but dismissed precisely because of the quantization problem. And he gets around it by having the fields interact in a way which actually removes most of the E8 symmetry, leaving only the Standard Model symmetry (but with some extra fields) - leading to protests that it's not really an E8 theory, because the more exotic relationships implied by full E8 play no part in the theory. But there is also the possibility that the symmetry-breaking terms are not fundamental (e.g. that they describe emergent effects). For the pure (unbroken) theory, he appeals to an argument from Nesti & Percacci (authors of the graviweak model, which is part of the theory) that the full symmetry shows up only in a high-temperature topological phase. This has to do with his model of gravity (Macdowell-Mansouri) being based not on a metric, but on a connection, so that under certain conditions, there is no metric. (This way of thinking was introduced by Witten's Fields-Medal-winning work on topological field theories, which are metric-less theories.) I have no idea yet if this alleged topological loophole in the Coleman-Mandula theorem is valid or not. Mporter (talk) 15:34, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

I think that such section can be constructed and/or sourced with this FAQ where Lisi himself responded questions to journalists. The "new factor" in this theory is also well explained by Lisi here, although using himself as the main source is not the best way to go. SalvNaut (talk) 17:09, 20 November 2007 (UTC) We join all of these fields as parts of one superconnection, over a four dimensional base manifold. This general idea should be familiar from grand unified theories, which combine the gauge fields into a single, larger connection. We're proceeding in the same spirit, but going further by using two unusual tricks. First, we're including gravity -- the connection AND the frame -- as parts of this connection. This reproduces general relativity through the MacDowell-Mansouri approach to gravity, discovered in the late seventies, which I first learned about in Smolin, Freidel, and Starodubtsev's quantum gravity papers. The second trick is that we're also including all the fermions in this superconnection, as Lie algebra valued Grassmann numbers. Now, at first look, this second trick shouldn't work. When we calculate the dynamics of this connection by taking its curvature, the interactions between fields will come from their Lie bracket. But we know gravity and the gauge fields interact with the fermions in fundamental representations. The fermions, such as this Dirac spinor column of spin up and spin down left and right chiral fields, live in a fundamental representation space, and these certainly don't appear to be Lie algebra elements. So how can this possibly work? Well, it turns out that for all five exceptional Lie groups, there are Lie brackets that act like the fundamental action. The structure of these algebras is such that some Lie algebra elements ARE fundamental representation space elements. This fact makes it possible to include the fermions in the connection as Lie algebra valued fields.


[edit] E8 X E8 X E8

I have just a passing acquaintence with sporadic finite simple groups, and none at all with analogous Lie Algebras, and I'm not a physicist, but I skimmed the paper with some real amusement. There seems to be some prior art modelling (some large pat of) quantuum mechanics (string theoretically) with E8 X E8; also, some modelling (some large part of) general relativity with E8. The "Triad" approach in the paper suggests analogy with joining the two extant models within E8 X E8 X E8; which could be both a cool and useful idea, and a mollification of the grandiousity of the result, at the same time. Also the biggest difficulties he expresses in the paper seem to be on the development of the triads themselves, possibly meaning, "the only difficulty with joining together two prior-art theories is the joining part" which last of course would trivialize the paper. It's a very nice paper, I'd recommend reading/skimming it to anyone who knows what "Lie Group", "string", and "quantuum" are, with a fairly liberal interpretation of "know" :-) and this paper getting peer-reviewed will be a good thing. Pete St.John (talk) 17:02, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

What a coincidence - I happened to mention E8 x E8 x E8 at Peter Woit's just a few hours ago.[6] Only, your version makes no sense: E8 x E8 string theory is not a "model" of quantum mechanics. And when was E8 previously used to "model" general relativity? Mporter (talk) 22:18, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Just to explain a bit more - E8 x E8 string theory is already a theory of quantum gravity. What I was suggesting is that the supersymmetry of string theory might derive from an implicit third E8. Mporter (talk) 22:30, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Supersymmetry has been linked to exceptional groups, for example for heterotic string: N=4 to E8, N=2 to E7 and N=1 to E6. So indeed there is in a sense a E8 x E8 x E8 structure in the heterotic string. That is, the representation theory of the En contain information about supermultiplets, to some extent even including auxiliary fields. The crucial feature is the triality properties of D4 when embedded into En. For details see

http://www.slac.stanford.edu/spires/find/hep/www?j=PRPLC,177,1 and http://www.slac.stanford.edu/spires/find/hep/www?j=PHLTA,B214,41 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.138.15.138 (talk) 12:10, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

And more - in E8 x E8 string theory, gravity doesn't come from the E8s, it comes from the closed state of the string (when it forms a loop rather than a line segment). And it's not a model of quantum mechanics because quantum mechanics is one of the inputs, one of the assumptions that goes into string theory, not something that comes out of it. Mporter (talk) 00:38, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
I thought Strings explain quanta? So that models of strings could predict new quanta or quantum properties? Anyway fair question about the E8 (one copy) modelling Gen Rel, I should have jotted that down, but I was not trying to prove anything, just note an impression from what I had skimmed. I am absolutely no kind of authority on this subject. Pete St.John (talk) 19:07, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
A string model will predict the existence of particles with certain quantum properties, yes, but it doesn't explain quantum mechanics itself. It doesn't explain the uncertainty principle, for example. Most quantum theories have a classical counterpart which you can get by applying the uncertainty principle to it (that's "quantization"). So you can start out with a classical theory of a vibrating string, in which its states are completely exact and deterministic; and then you can introduce the uncertainty principle (or any other logically equivalent starting point) as a postulate, and you get a "quantum string" with quantum properties like energy levels. So you could say that strings explain the particular quanta we have, but not why there are quanta at all. Mporter (talk) 01:54, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Masses

I have added this to the article lead,

as it stands, the paper contains no calculations for particle masses; and it is not clear that such calculations could be done even in principle.

which I hope is a fair understanding of Mporter's comments several sections above, and various blogs.

I'm only a layman, so I hope somebody with more knowledge will confirm whether I have got that right. Is there anything in the theory to suggest even why the different fermion generations should have different masses from each other? Jheald (talk) 12:22, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Not that I can see, but all the fermion stuff is obscure to me. The masses are to come from a Higgs field, so in theory it's just a matter of finding its ground state. But I don't understand what he's doing with the three generations (section 2.4.2).
By the way, in his critique Distler uses a different group for gravity than Lisi actually uses. The group Distler uses is the one that Macdowell and Mansouri originally used, but the one Lisi uses is commonplace in LQG. Mporter (talk) 14:53, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but in physics mass (allegedly) results from interactions with Higgs (field/particles) and in Lisi's theory this means that mass will result from a commutator between appropriate E8 Lie algebra elements. Exact values (hence different masses) of this interaction, depend on the curvature of E8 principal bundle over time-space manifold. Curvature results from/can be described with connection. This has to be chosen so that it agrees with reality (so the question stands: can it be chosen this way?). I don't understand this well but Garrett writes that this agreeing of terms is usually done through writing equations for "action" of E8 bundle over our space-time. Garrett has proposed some action formula by hand ("satisfying desire for minimalism" as he writes) but he's not sure if this is the right one and he didn't do any computations that would result with constant values (to compare with reality). So whether this, or other correctly definable, action will result with constants that agree with reality (like different masses of fermion generations) - we don't yet know.
Replying to your question more directly: Is there anything in the theory to suggest... - I suppose that yes, each generation of fermions commutes differently with Lie algebra elements representing Higgs field, so there is hope that properly defined curvature will assign them real-world masses. Sorry for the long post, but writing this down helps me to understand this better. SalvNaut (talk) 18:53, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
The masses don't come directly from the group algebra, they come from the Higgs having a nonzero expectation value, which is dynamics. But there is a problem with the three fermion generations in this theory:[7] under the original assignment of particles to E8, only the first generation gets the right quantum numbers. You actually have to change the assignment (by a "triality transformation") for the second generation to work out, and then you have to apply it again for the third generation to work out, and then if you apply it the third time it works for the first generation again. But each time the other generations get scrambled. This is switching between representations, and it really means there are three related E8 theories here, each of which describes one fermion generation correctly (and only with respect to properties other than mass) and the other two incorrectly. I don't see how you could hope to turn that into one successful theory, because even if they could be shown to be different aspects of the same theory under a change of variables (think of how the various string theories were unified), it would still be wrong wherever you went in the configuration space of the unified theory. So either something has to be changed, or we'll have to go back to string theory. :-) Mporter (talk) 00:00, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for correction and the good link. the triality rotated G - Garret suggests in his paper that physical fermions may be a linear combination of each of triality partners (p.13) (shouldn't "wrong" quantum number assignments show up some in experiments, then?). He already treats fermion in an unique way. If triality rotation has no explanation, does this leave us with this fit being only a matter of (bad:) luck? SalvNaut (talk) 00:57, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
First let me explain what I meant by saying there are three theories, not one: see p.22. That matrix T is the triality transformation I was referring to. As you can see, it permutes the assignment of Standard Model particles to elements of E8, and in any given assignment, only one generation gets the right quantum numbers. So if we consider the theory as being defined (in part) by the assignment of particles to E8, then there are three theories and they are all wrong. The idea of a superposition of triality partners only makes sense if triality is a relationship between particles within the one theory, but Garrett doesn't explain how to do that.
So we have a theory (or a set of three theories) defined classically, but not containing the Standard Model; and we have no proposal for how to turn their classical spinor/tensor E8 symmetries into a nonsupersymmetric quantum symmetry of fermions and bosons. (Doing it supersymmetrically would probably just lead back to string theory in some form, e.g. with Garrett's particles being zero-length approximations to the strings.) You ask what this partial fit might mean if it really is a big red herring in the quest for a unified theory... It's hard to say. String theory is famous for having zillions of ground states, most of which are nothing like the Standard Model, some of which resemble it, and some of which behave exactly like it. Spaces of mathematical structures are full of repetitive and almost-repetitive patterns. There might be field theories somehow resembling the one in this paper which really do contain the Standard Model (that would be Garrett's hope right now), or the nearest such theory might be several qualitative changes away, so far away that it no longer counts as an instance of the original idea. Mporter (talk) 10:09, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
I said: String theory is famous for having zillions of ground states, most of which are nothing like the Standard Model, some of which resemble it, and some of which behave exactly like it. This may or may not be true, but right now it seems that there is no known string vacuum which behaves exactly like the Standard Model, there are just classes of vacua which are in the right ballpark (some listed here[8]). Also see swampland. Mporter (talk) 00:25, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

as it stands, the paper contains no calculations for particle masses; and it is not clear that such calculations could be done even in principle. We can only add this statement if supported by a published source. See WP:V#Sources ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:00, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, the first half is directly supported by the paper. I think the calculations do-ability at all has been questioned, but it's too late at night for me to find an appropriate source. What is true, regardless, is that it has not been shown that such calculations could be done even in principle. Jheald (talk) 01:56, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
The sentence is still OR - according to who is it "not clear that such calculations could be done even in principle"? I've fact-tagged it for now, if a source can't be found soon that says exactly that the sentence needs to be rewritten or removed. - Merzbow (talk) 01:05, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
I stand be the edit summary I made: This is a real issue. It's a real test to create a theory that doesn't blow up and give infinities everywhere.
As Sabine Hossenfelder wrote, in her opening assessment for her blog [9]:
"He neither can say anything about the quantization of gravity, renormalizability, nor about the hierarchy problem" (my emphasis).
No renormalizability => no calculations.
And here was Stein Sigurdsson's concluding summary, in his blog post: [10]
If the rather dubious bits he pulls off tighten into something half-rigorous, and if there is another loophole in Coleman-Mandula, and if the theory is calculable (like masses of the new scalar fields, or actual expectation value for cosmological constant) then it may be very interesting. (my emphasis)
That is a lot of ifs.
It's a big deal to have a model that produces well-defined numbers without blowing up. Lisi hasn't produced anything in his paper to establish that assertion. Jheald (talk) 15:36, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
I make no judgment if it's a big deal or not, heck knows I can't do the math. But you need a source to say that, you can't add your own opinions to the article. - Merzbow (talk) 19:22, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Another blogger

Stein Sigurdsson, an astrophysicist at Penn State, has put up some interesting threads running, and various people from the discussion at B's blog, including B herself, have chipped in.

  • Overly Simple Theory of Something ("Lisi does not actually have a theory yet, he doesn't really have a model even. [But] he has a couple of insights that may go somewhere...")
  • Red Boson, Blue Fermion (On adding bosons and fermions)
  • Almost Massless World (Suppose non-trivial couplings between gravity and particles were indeed only possible in non-Poincaré space time? Is this necessarily a problem? Could the size of the cosmological constant and the smallness of particle masses be in some way tied together?)

Not sure whether or not the threads represent anything yet sufficiently authoritative for a link from the article main page; but I thought they were maybe worth flagging here to watch, in case things develop. Jheald (talk) 15:19, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Edit war?

The recent line, reverted and then unreverted,

  • It also now seems that the paper does not after all precisely match the symmetry structures observed in particle physics...

implies that the paper purports to "precisely match..." which seems unreasonable, to me; as it admits of pending difficulites, and is described (more explicitly elsewhere, perhaps) as "a work in progress" not a complete theory. I have no objection to citing the blogs, but this line is something of a strawman by overstating the claims it rebuts. So I support deleting or replacing the line but am reluctant to myself. Pete St.John (talk) 17:39, 24 November 2007 (UTC) (E8^3 == E512? :-)

The paper has been hugely hyped as 'containing the standard model plus gravity'. That's been the basis for the instant celebrity quotes like the one from David Finkelstein, "I think that this must be more than coincidence", etc.
Well, it doesn't match the standard model, and there's no easy way to make it match the standard model. The symmetries required simply aren't there in E8. This ought to be set out right at the top of the article. It's essential, if people are to have realistic expectations of what Lisi has or has not achieved. Jheald (talk) 17:47, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
Sure, there is no easy way to make it fit the standard model and maybe it never will be. I just want to distinguish the claims of the paper (which I admit are expansively posed) from the hype (which is only partly Lisi's fault :-). So I would prefer to say something like:
  • Contrary to many impressions, the paper does not present a complete working model for Unification. It is a description of an ongoing investigation which has garnered extraordinary attention.
Part of the "extraordinary attention" is because of Lisi's boldness, part because of jouralism's tropism for excitement, and part because the paper is very engagingly presented, a definite positive. I just don't think we need to blame Lisi for presenting an erroneous proof, although I think there are actual errors, e.g. whether something is embedded in one subgroup or a larger one, something along those lines he admits to already. I just want to distinguish between the (false) impression made by the hype, and the (brazen) optimism (vs, false claims) in the paper itself. Both may be addressed, but they shouldn't be blurred together (they already are, we want to clear it up, good job for a real-time Encyclopedia).
Incidentally, this is somewhat similar, to me, to the Wolfram (2,3)Turing Machine recent controversy. In my view, Wolfram Research (a business) overstated the result (for publicity), and it was important to distinguish mathematical flaws in Smith's paper, from public relations rhetoric flaws. The issues aren't all resolved but currently most everyone involved is civil and calm; it was dicey for awhile. Pete St.John (talk) 18:07, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
I don't think that sentence was phrased neutrally. I've rewritten it and remove some other original research from the lead. When opinions are stated in the text, we need to attribute them to the source by name, in the text, and be wary of cherry-picking. - Merzbow (talk) 20:04, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
I like the above sentence proposed by Pete, and I think it should be implemented. Problems with E8 theory (like fermions triality, ad-hoc action,...) are already indicated in Lisi's paper, and they're discussed further down in the article. It can't stand in first paragraph, as it stands now, that his paper is wrong, this being cited with only a blog. (Besides, Garrett's last comment on this blog looks to me like a minor thing - isn't that he simply misnamed the group he was working with? EIX instead of E8(8)?) salVNaut (talk) 20:05, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fermions and bosons again

Someone added the following passage (which has been touched up a bit):

A somehow exceptional is Lisi's approach to describe fermions. He includes all the fermions in E8 superconnection, as Lie algebra valued Grassmann numbers. [1] Soon after the paper gained attention, there were voices from certain physicists that Lisi had made a mistake by "adding bosons to fermions"[2]. However, this seems to be a feature of Lisi's paper. In his own words:

The second trick is that we're also including all the fermions in this superconnection, as Lie algebra valued Grassmann numbers. Now, at first look, this second trick shouldn't work. When we calculate the dynamics of this connection by taking its curvature, the interactions between fields will come from their Lie bracket. But we know gravity and the gauge fields interact with the fermions in fundamental representations. The fermions, such as this Dirac spinor column of spin up and spin down left and right chiral fields, live in a fundamental representation space, and these certainly don't appear to be Lie algebra elements. So how can this possibly work? Well, it turns out that for all five exceptional Lie groups, there are Lie brackets that act like the fundamental action. The structure of these algebras is such that some Lie algebra elements ARE fundamental representation space elements. This fact makes it possible to include the fermions in the connection as Lie algebra valued fields.[1]

I've moved it here because I consider it misleading and it shouldn't be in the article until we can sort this out.

The problem with the bosons and fermions arises when you quantize the theory. Classically, a field is a field and there is no concept of boson or fermion. But when quantized, spinor-valued fields give rise to fermions, and tensor-valued fields (including scalars and vectors) give rise to bosons. The E-series exceptional Lie groups have representations where there are symmetries mixing classical spinor and tensor fields. But if you want to turn that into a symmetry of quantum fields, you run into the Coleman-Mandula theorem. The passage quoted from Lisi's talk does not address this - he's talking about another aspect of E8.

I think the reference to E8-valued "Grassmann numbers" is just another way of saying "these will be fermions in the quantum theory", without saying how that could be so. So far I think three separate reasons have been advanced as to why Coleman-Mandula doesn't apply (not working in Minkowski space; full symmetry only applies in a high-temperature topological phase; symmetry is already broken in the action). The first reason isn't valid because the local geometry is close enough to Minkowski for a generalization of CM to apply; I haven't looked into the technical problems with the second reason but they are clearly referenced in the last paragraph of Lubos Motl's original post; and the third reason would mean that this wasn't really an E8 unification at all. Mporter (talk) 05:05, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm not adverse to citing references to various sides in an ongoing debate, and it doesn't seem misleading to me because of the tentative "...seems to be a feature..." and even in the (presumably pro-Lisi) quote, "...makes possible" (instead of "models"). But the lead sentence:
  • A somehow exceptional is Lisi's approach to describe fermions.
isn't. Pete St.John 17:12, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
Whatever the final resolution of this topic, I think that this dispute should find it's place in the article, and I fully agree that it should be phrased carefully.
As for "Grassmann numbers", it is NOT just another way of saying "these will be fermions in the quantum theory". It is like saying, fermions can be seen as Grassmann numbers because in E8 simple exceptional algebra those behave exactly the same as (i.e. can be identified with) elements from fundamental representation. If this works, you can apply quantization to Grassmann numbers (in fact applying it to corresponding spinor-valued elements) and you're cool. As far as I understand, Coleman-Mandula does not apply for different reasons - framework for gravity is De Sitter universe (Lisi talks about it at the end of his seminar and Smolin agrees with him).
The more serious is the problem with triality. If this cannot be fit in SM (with another quantum number?, other unification of 3 generations?) then E8 theory dies. salVNaut 10:38, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "An error" according to Distler

Here is what Lisi has to say about it: AdvancedPhysics forum. This is why I reverted the edit by anon. salVNaut 21:30, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Many anonymous editors keep putting words like "faulty math" in the article, referring to Distler's blog. Please see the link above for Lisi's response about a mistake that Distler has found ("Fortunately, this doesn't effect anything in the paper."). The triality problem is described in Lisi's paper and is presented as a "feature". Whether it's a feaure just like MS Windows feature, we will see (if paper passes peer-review, or not). I think that all categorical, flat statements should be replaced with more cautious ones. salVNaut 16:32, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Lisi corrected an understandable misinterpretation by Professor Distler. Professor Distler provided the correct version name of E8 for the theory. Michael H 34 16:37, 2 December 2007 (UTC) Michael H 34

  • regarding "claims to show" vs "show"; I think the distinction is not so great. If Distler's critique itself gets peer-reviewed, then surely "show", but meanwhile, "claims to show" is not so unfair and I wouldn't revert it myself. All scientific work is claims, really, some of them very broadly accepted, sometimes for very good reasons :-) Pete St.John (talk) 20:45, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Notability

According to wiki's guidlines:

"A short burst of present news coverage about a topic does not necessarily constitute objective evidence of long-term notability."

A short burst of present news coverage, now apparently at an end, is precisely what has happened here. The flaws in this theory were apparent from the beginning to almost any physicist in the field that actually bothered to even glance at the paper, and they have now been clearly laid out in several blogs etc. The only reason it got any attention at all is that Lisi is an unusual figure, science journalists love countercultural rebel types, the paper had a clever name and some pretty pictures, and one or two fringe physicsts with some public exposure made mis-informed comments about it. It's now in the process of dissappearing from view. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.167.239.242 (talk) 01:07, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't believe thats fair. I think this article meets notability guidlines easily. How many hits is it getting a day (I'm aware that doesn't qualify it alone). It certainly should be left here until the LHC has been running for a while. If he makes predictions then it could become important. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.64.24.161 (talk) 17:56, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

If enough other people believe it's notable that's probably good evidence it is. But I think it might be unclear to non-physicists how little attention this is getting among the pros. Frankly, it's obviously wrong. Worse, it's wrong in a not very interesting way. You can see that if you follow some of the links in the reception section. Some are more polite than others, but every time the theory is looked at even a little bit closely if falls apart. The physics arxivs are full of papers like that - there are many every day. Ordinarily they get no attention and vanish without a trace. This one hit it big in the popular media - that's the only difference. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.167.236.155 (talk) 06:30, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I think some of the controversy might go away if we replaced the notion of "Lisi's Theory" with the notion "Lisi's approach". My sense is that the paper is a pretty cool look into the struggle of a physicist, more than a look into the physics. Almost all undergrad math majors have some feelings like this: the published papers are finished products with no hint, usually, of how the author developed his idea. It's as if you wanted to learn to mine diamonds, but all you see are well-lit cut diamonds in jewelry stores. Pete St.John (talk) 20:00, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
Let us suppose that the theory is a dead-end however you look at it. In that case, eventually someone will write a definitive debunking and put it on the arxiv, just to formally end things. At that point, the page could be shrunk to a link to Lisi's paper, a link to the debunking, and a brief description of the 2007 media phenomenon associated with the paper. But whatever happens, the fact is that people will be coming here for years trying to find out more. So the page ought to stay. In any case, there was a vote to keep it just last month. Mporter (talk) 12:31, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
That's unlikely to happen. I don't think anyone here realizes how many wrong papers are posted on that preprint server every day. No researcher has time to debunk them - it would be a completely thankless and Sisyphean exercise. Instead, they just get ignored. The ONLY thing that makes this one notable is the single burst of media attention it received, and that's not supposed to be adequate on its own for notability.
(sigh anon) single but big outburst; reaction from not journalists but numerous physicists. This has been newsworthy. I consider the consenus to be "notable" so I'm reverting the revert etc. Pete St.John (talk) 20:57, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
I used to read the arxiv daily so I know what you're talking about. However, this particular paper will continue to receive interest and attention until certain questions have undeniably been answered. Lee Smolin just put out a preprint[11] defending the claim that Coleman-Mandula doesn't apply here, for example. The idea seems to be that the theory has no S-matrix except in a limit that breaks the E8 symmetry anyway. It sounds odd to me, but whatever. Unlike the zillion revolutionary papers that languish unread, I guarantee that Lisi's will be analyzed to death and everything about it spelt out for a lay audience, somewhere. There's too much interest in it for that not to happen. Mporter (talk) 01:44, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
OK, well, I don't agree, but notability is in the eye of the beholder, and there are more of you. Carry on then. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.167.230.136 (talk) 06:57, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] E8 lattice?

Can anyone understand this statement in the opening paragraph?

His theory claims to unify all fields of the Standard Model with gravity using a 248-point lattice of E8 geometry.

In geometry at least I know the E8 lattice is an infinite honeycomb of E8 polytopes in 8-dimensional space. I don't know what the 248 points are, or what they have to do with the lattice. The E8 polytope has 240 vertices in 8-dimensions. I read E8 is the symmetries of a geometric object that is 57-dimensional. E8 itself is 248-dimensional [Lie algebra].. (248 dimensions being 8 + 240 vertices apparently.)

Anyway, I mainly want to know if linking to the e8 lattice is correct, since it doesn't seem to appear in any other writings about the theory. Tom Ruen (talk) 01:59, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

The source of this intro is around this edit Nov 15 by User:Oldsoul [12], reduced from E8 principle bundle connection to E8 lattice. Tom Ruen (talk) 02:09, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

What it should say is that the fields are put into correspondence with the 240 vectors of the E8 root system - which are basis vectors of the (infinite) E8 lattice, and which also mark out the vertices of an E8 polytope. As for the connection to the Lie group E8, unfortunately I don't have this straight yet. The Lie group (and its algebra) are 248-dimensional. The 8-dimensional vectors in the root system are eigenvectors of a "Cartan subalgebra" of E8, acting on some vector space (but which?). And 248 = 240 + 8. :-) Give me a while and I'll figure out a technically correct statement. Mporter (talk) 03:22, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Much appreciated, since I'm far over my head even asking. Tom Ruen (talk) 03:33, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Clean-up and rewrite (1 Jan 2008)

Hello - first of all I'd like to say a big "thank you" for everyone who has helped compiling this big amount of material, and place it well-referenced into Wikipedia.

While trying to keep as much of the good material as possible, I've posted a full rewrite of this page, to address a list of issues. On a high-level, these are the guidelines:

  • Structure -- Have categories in the following order: Lead-in (high-level overview); context of the model in physics and mathematics (high-level); description of key components; predictions and consequences; reception: intial, criticism, secondary discussions.
  • Tone -- tried to remove under-/overstatements and similar from the main article body; instead, wherever there is a dispute, describe the nature of the dispute, reference the comment, and note the response. Also, separate comments on the content of the paper from secondary discussions.
  • References -- Tried to make sure that all sources and references are: correct, necessary, and reasonable. In particular, there appeared to be original research by using new references to supporting material. While it is honorable to try to defend Lisi's model here, we should stick with what was said. References e.g. supporting the BF model or other fields used by Lisi should be added to the pages they relate to, and not to Lisi's model.
  • Categories -- Improve categorization focus. Categorization into a too broad field (like "Universe" or "Quantum mechanics") does not serve the purpose of identifying what "wider" context the article is in: "wider" is relative, and "Quantum mechanics" is simply too wide.
  • Content -- I did not plan to remove notable content, but remove duplication, unneeded expositions, compactify where possible, restructure, and/or add to the text. If you see content removed that should be covered in Wikipedia, I apologize in advance, since it was not my intent.

To the least, it should bring the article into a better shape, a step in the right direction hopefully. If other models or theories aren't represented as nicely in Wikipedia, then this is a problem with the other articles, and not with the current one. Some of the material that was here before, which I removed, might surely be notable somewhere else. Please help improving Wikipedia, e.g. by addressing Quantum gravity, BF model, Theory of everything, and more articles that cover your favorite topics.

Constructive comments welcome! Thanks, Jens Koeplinger (talk) 02:30, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Good job. Well done. Michael H 34 (talk) 16:01, 2 January 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34

Thanks, Michael H 34 and others. The additional details for why the theory cannot be a Theory of Everything in its current form are now merged and shortened into the lead-in. I suggest not to get too detailed in the exposition, it already says that it is generally agreed that Lisi's work is not what its title might suggest. In the "Overview" it lists what all the theory paper didn't do, and the publicity and controversy section is quite to the point, I believe. Please also note that continued trolling will trigger the page to become semi-protected, which would not be in anyone's interest, as we will lose the ability to collect information effectively, as it comes available. Constructive comments welcome! Thanks, Jens Koeplinger (talk) 02:15, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
Ok, ok, probably wasn't trolling the second time around, I take that back. But still looks like POV without further explanation here. Please explain your motivation, anonymous or not. Thanks, Jens Koeplinger (talk) 02:37, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Ah, Wikipedia, where one can take a page that finally, after too many changes, resembled the actual state of affairs, and completely get rid of it, replacing it with a whole new set of incorrect statements. I won't bother any more. Have fun! 66.245.36.122 (talk) 07:39, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

My sense, as an outsider (who has been away from this page for some weeks now), is that the rewrite is more or less reasonable. For contrast, at the Quackwatch article, the two sides (pro-alternative-medicine and anti-pseudoscience; there is no concept at all that someone might be both) fight over every word of any change. We really don't need to be like that here. Pete St.John (talk) 17:52, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Re introducing errors, my bad, I apologize for this. I continue to follow-up on feedback ... just when large changes are posted here that don't appear balanced, without a brief description about reasoning, it'll take me longer. I don't take reverting edits easily, as I recognize the importance of capturing updates as a gift to Wikipedia. More later. Thanks, Jens Koeplinger (talk) 21:23, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

While still collecting feedback, here's a preliminary list of what's still open, in my view. Please add to it as you see fit, maybe we can reduce the number of edits needed later:
  1. not a "Theory of Everything": I've merged some criticism into the lead-in, but now the tone is off: It sounds now as if Lisi's theory was false impostering, whereas he indeed attempts to combine the Standard Model with quantum gravity; which makes the proposal a "Theory of Everything". All I can see is the following criticism: (1) The press has portrait it as "the real thing", done, complete and all - which it is not, (2) from the over-excitement that seems to be floating in the air when someone touches quantum gravity or E8, the "hype" may seem it desired for Lisi's theory to be more complete than it is, and (3) some excited statements in Lisi's paper may make some think that it's "just about done" ... all these are, in my view, wrong perceptions, raised by unrealistic expectations into something with such a risky title. -- I would love to find the right tone for this. -- And I still think that the discussion of why it is not a ToE in the exposition is unneeded: It is generally agreed that it cannot be a ToE in its current form, even Lisi agrees with it in his very paper.
    I take the detail discussion out, and just reword it to be an approach or framework; there are open issues, and everything's discussed more detailed later. I question the motivation of pointing out all the details that are not done yet, when what's proposed by Lisi is a framework within all the details could eventually be taken on. I think this is "hype"-induced over-sensitivity.
  2. Distler's second post ("a little more about group theory"): From the anonymous IP edits, which I reverted earlier, I conjecture that we don't have the right representation of this second post of Distler yet. Here's my personal, probably biased, opinion: After so much hostility, people may not have wanted to respond in public or blogging anymore, and rather prepare their response silently, i.e. in isolation. But since the anonymous IP editor put it back, I'm glad to reconsider that I didn't get that right yet. Please comment.
    The article already says that the Prof. Distler shows how fermion generations cannot be embedded. If that's already true or not for one generation I can't source. Nevertheless, only because the demonstrated approach doesn't work does not mean it cannot ever be modified or otherwise made to work. See Prof. Smolin's response, contained in the article.
  3. I've been told that some terms are mathematically not correct. I should not use the term "enveloping algebra", as it may have a different meaning. This probably needs to be edited out somehow.
    I'll remove the term "enveloping". I'm very wary of placing an "expert attention needed" on the article because of the apparent strong polarization amongst experts. Hope we can avoid this. Instead, I strongly, strongly suggest to keep monitoring published comments and replies, and simply source from there, without leaning to either conclusion here in Wikipedia.
  4. The term "grand unified theory" might have different definitions, and I may not have used the more common one. It appears that the most common definition of "grand unified theory" does not include quantum gravity, and that a theory that combines GUT and QG is then called a ToE. -- ... Comments?
    I'll rename it to "unified field theory" in the lead-in, and change the wording to the newer / more common understanding of GUT. Sorry for that mishap.
  5. There was a phrase from anonymous IP that I couldn't pin to good references: "Lisi's model combines bosons in fermions in a manner that violates the spin statistics theorem". Anyone has some more information on this? While the statement may be correct, and could be proven as such, we would need verifiable references for it; otherwise, this would be original research: We could only write about it, but we would have removed it from academic debate, which consists of proposition, comment, and response. Do we have this somewhere, e.g. in a blog? Please note, it should not be anonymous.
    I dug some more, and it appears that in order to make the conclusion that it is not possible to embed particles of different spin, one would require the Coleman-Mandula theorem to be applicable. Since that is proposed not to be, I don't see how we could write specifics here. I'll leave the wording unspecific, as it is ("related to this is...." etc).
Well, that's what came back so far, please let me know if I've forgotten something. Constructive comments welcome. Thanks! Jens Koeplinger (talk) 03:46, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
Regarding (1), perhaps the first sentence should introduce it as a unified field theory?

The following links may be helpful for you. Best wishes, Michael H 34 (talk) 15:08, 4 January 2008 (UTC)Michael H 34 Coleman-Mandula theorem
Haag-Lopuszanski-Sohnius theorem
Supersymmetry

Hi - thanks for the references and points. Let me do some minor updates now, and then maybe step back a little. Because the article and the model have been so controversial, please explain edits when you do them. Sorry if someone disagrees, or thinks that this is silly, wrong, or unneeded. I've added to the enumeration above in italics why I'm doing now, and what remains open. Thanks for your help, Jens Koeplinger (talk) 04:10, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
PS: I knew I overlooked something. In a previous anonymous IP edit, the wording regarding Lee Smolin's follow-up publication was contested, by changing "has been addressed" to "may have been addressed". Smolin did "address" this open issue directly (i.e. he wrote about it), so I vote against the "may have been" wording; but I changed the subsequent "demonstrating" to "by suggesting", which probably describes the situation better. Let's keep monitoring published comments. Thanks, Jens Koeplinger (talk) 04:38, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

A few more thoughts about how Lisi's theory fits into existing mathematical physics.

1. It is a topological quantum field theory, and it belongs to a school of thought which would derive gravity from a perturbed topological gauge theory([13], see third-last paragraph), an idea mostly pursued in loop quantum gravity and spin foam models. This is its ultimate theoretical context.

2. Along with spin-2 gravity, he also wants to get spin-1 gauge bosons (electroweak, gluons) from his gauge group. Possibly he got this idea from the "graviweak unification" paper he cites[14], and this is the main subject of the follow-up paper by Lee Smolin[15]. This is already at odds with the Coleman-Mandula theorem (see the post by Luboš Motl[16], final section, "How fields of different spins can't be unified"), though Smolin thinks the theorem doesn't apply. For that matter, Luboš has written elsewhere[17] that loop quantum gravity in general is prone to make technically unsupportable claims. That is a big POV debate which we aren't competent to resolve here, of course, but it is another part of the context surrounding the theory's reception.

3. That placing bosons and fermions in the same multiplet would require special measures, even Lisi and Smolin agree. Lisi says in several places that he wants somehow to get fermions out of BRST ghosts (an idea which Peter Woit said he likes, in his original post), while Smolin champions an old idea of getting fermions from Planck-scale wormholes. Some precise statements of the boson-fermion problem, and how one would solve it conventionally (with a superalgebra), can be found midway through the technical discussion thread at Physics Forums.

4. As the whole world has heard by now ;-), Jacques Distler showed that you cannot embed the Standard Model in the adjoint representation of E8. So the theory's future, if it has one, lies in the broader universe of attempts to explain physics using exceptional groups, such as the attempt to derive M theory from E11

It might also be of interest to mention where the theory gets its no-parameter status from. I believe the answer is that in a non-abelian gauge theory (and E8 is not abelian), coupling constants are not free parameters, but are instead determined by the gauge group's properties. Lisi has more or less endorsed this view in passing,[18] but I'm not sure how to put it in a way that takes into account real-life complexities like the "running" of couplings. Also, even if some form of the theory can be made to work, there is no guarantee that there will be unique predictions of particle masses (which are to come from Higgs fields) - there may instead be a landscape of possibilities, as in string theory, which is also nominally parameter-free. Mporter (talk) 13:44, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "purported", "unpublished", "basic issues of consistency"?

This edit is here since over one week, and I'm a bit surprised:

  • "purported" -- as opposed to maybe: "proposed"
  • "unpublished preprint" -- as opposed to maybe: "published as arXiv 'e-Print'"
  • "basic issues of consistency" -- as opposed to maybe: "open questions"

These appear to be words chosen by a critic of Lisi's model, and are therefore POV / unbalanced: They do not correctly summarize the reception of Lisi's work. The positions (critical and supportive) are referenced and described in the article later, the lead-in should represent this. Why shouldn't it? Jens Koeplinger (talk) 00:30, 13 January 2008 (UTC)


Is the wiki article supposed to represent the views of the majority of experts in the field? If so, I think it's far too positive, and it should probably be re-written to focus on the media attention (which is the most notable thing about the paper), and just briefly summarize the theory itself.

FYI, "published as arXiv 'e-Print'" is an oxymoron - the arxiv is a pre-print server, a repository for papers to appear on before they are published. Putting a paper there involves no peer-review, no editors, no paper version, no transfer of copyright, and does not constitute publication. Opaqueice (talk) 19:09, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Your point is well-taken, Opaqueice, but remember "publish" isn't equivalent to "published in a way that gets tenure". Marvel Comics is published, but not peer-reviewed. So arXiv "does not constitute publication" in the sense of academic citation counting, but may (particularly in the context of all the reactions quoting it) constitue publishing in the sense of citability within wiki. Pete St.John (talk) 20:13, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Lisi work Aether Wave Theory interpetation - please, correct it, if you like it, delete it, if not

Mr. Garett's work is a sort of geometric mysticism in its current state indeed, but it still doesn't mean, it CANNOT have robust physical meaning. The most important point (which wasn't mentioned till now) is, the Lie group is not just void geometrical structure. It's root system is describing the tightest structure of kissing hyperspheres, where the kissing points are sitting at the centers of another hyperspheres, recursively. The Aether Wave Theory proposes at least two dual ways, how to interpret such structure.

The cosmological one is maybe easier to realize: it considers, the current Universe generation is formed by interior of giant dense collapsar, which behaves like black hole from outer perspective. This collapse was followed by phase transition, which proceeded like crystallization from over-saturated solution by avalanche-like mechanism. During this, the approximately spherical zones of condensing false vacuum have intersect mutually, and from these places the another vacuum condensation has started (a sort of nucleation effect). We can observe the residuum of these zones as a dark matter streaks. The dodecahedron structure of these zones should corresponds the E8 group geometry, as being observed from inside.

The second interpretation of E8 is relevant for Planck scale, i.e. for outer perspective. The dense interior of black hole is forming the physical vacuum, which is filled by spongy system of density fluctuations, similar to nested foam. Such structure has even a behavior of soap foam, because it gets more dense after introducing of energy by the same way, like soap shaken inside of closed vessel. Such behavior leads to the quantum behavior of vacuum and particle-wave duality. Every energy wave, exchanged between pair of particles (i.e. density fluctuations of foam) is behaving like less or more dense blob of foam, i.e. like gauge boson particle. Every boson can exchange its energy with another particles, including other gauge bosons, thus forming the another generation of interacalated particles.

Therefore the E8 Lie group solves the trivial question: which structure should have the tightest lattice of particles, exchanged by another particles? And such question has even perfect meaning from classical physics point of view! Such question has a perfect meaning in theory, describing the most dense structure of inertial particles, which we can even imagine, i.e. the interior of black hole. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.160.48.140 (talk) 19:43, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for giving an outline of your thoughts. This sounds like something to be added e.g. to "Aether theories", and you may reference E8 from there. Please remember to provide references to sources/articles, their reception, and responses there to. Thanks, Jens Koeplinger (talk) 22:25, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
Thank You for your note. The AWT is basically [luminiferous Aether] theory, modified just by assumption of infinitelly high mass/energy density. As such it's still a subject of "private research" and it wasn't published yet, referenced in press the less. So it cannot be published of Wiki, I presume. Despite of this, I'd strongly recommend to keep the [Exceptionally Simple Theory of Everything] article undeleted, because it CAN have a deep sense even from HE E8xE8 string theories point of view (despite the Lisi's well pronounced tendency not to support string theory, his theory can be considered as a one of best interpretation of it - this wouldn't be the very first case in history of physics). Later it can be merged with corresponding topics. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.160.48.140 (talk) 00:46, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] There is an AfD that might interest you guys

The Article for Deletion Martin Tajmar discussion might benefit from a visit by a physicist interested in unification stuff. The article in question is just a brief bio of an apparently reasonble guy, but the observed effect (for which he is notable) may be 1) an oddity that requires further investigation/explanation; 2) a leap of wishful thinking towards creating gravity, or antigravity, with electromagnetic effects. I'm guessing the former (he observed an odd effect, and reported it...) but maybe some claims are too recherche. I'm no judge. Pete St.John (talk) 22:10, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Recent reverts / "no new Einstein

An edit just had to be reverted, and I support the revert for the following two reasons:

  • The only new content that was provided was a reference to a single news coverage event, however, the edit was done in the article's lead-in (i.e. in an exposed setting). The news coverage was in a publication that earlier was overly positive and spectacular in its first publication, and now merely seems to rudder back from its prior mistake. I find neither article (old and new) very precise.
  • There are terms to be avoided (e.g. "now"), with some other problematic wording (e.g. "enhanced perspectives").

Nevertheless, one could picture to add the article reference http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/main.jhtml?xml=/earth/2008/01/22/scieinstein122.xml to the already existing section of this page, and represent it correctly. As an example, in the anonymous IP edit the title was represented as "Garrett Lisi: This surfer is no Einstein...", I suggest to add the rest of the title "... but behind Garrett Lisi's 'theory of everything' lies an amazing idea, says Marcus du Sautoy" Thanks, Jens Koeplinger (talk) 21:27, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes sure. I had reverted that, and put a note on the contributor's talk page (naturally, an anonymous SPA, even though I guess there is no such thing). I felt that it was weak enough material to leave it to the comment(s) and the opportunity the contributor has to advocate it here at the Talk, if they want. That said, sure, such an additional article reference seems OK to me. It was just going too far to replace the intro with that. Pete St.John (talk) 22:32, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Perfect, thanks for this! I reverted the same edit on the Garrett Lisi page. Koeplinger (talk) 22:49, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

This Telegraph article looks like a blatant attention grab to sell Sautoy's book, and contains no substantial criticism of this theory. If it should be linked to it all, it should be linked with Sautoy's opinion.

The link is back (in both articles)--and it appears a bona fide attempt to address problems mentioned--my gut feeling is it doesn't belong, but will let others consider it as well.Todd (talk) 20:57, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
yeah. At least it's in the "criticism" section now, that's an improvement. My gut is unhappy too, but maybe not enough to bother with. But presumably some folks would prefer The Telegraph to Phys Rev for their news. Pete St.John (talk) 21:54, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Various Changes

Given that Lisi has now spoken at Ted and people use Wikipedia as a reference, I figured it would be worthwhile to give this a bit larger of an overhaul than the small edits I've been making. I've removed the Secondary Debates from the page as it does not seem relevant to the subject of the article. Here is the relevant material

In addition to debate over the model, Lisi's paper has sparked several secondary discussions, often laced with hostile and insulting remarks, about blogging, scientific etiquette, and the non-peer review endorsement system of ArXiv that supported Lisi's publication. In his blog, Luboš Motl wrote[2]:

“ This paper by A. Garrett Lisi had to be endorsed by someone. If you read the acknowledgements, it is not hard to see possible answers. Some of those people such as Lee Smolin may endorse any crackpot paper because they are both endorsers and crackpots at the same moment. Moreover, they have a vested interest to increase the proportion of similar papers on the arXiv because this is where they belong. As Lee Smolin recently pointed out, irrationality has been extremely useful for him in the past. ”

The role of non-constructive criticism and flaming in scientific debate was questioned, amongst others, by Lee Smolin[3]:

“ I entered this discussion hoping we could find resolution, what I encountered was a toxic and nasty atmosphere in which it was impossible to get a simple yes/no answer to a simple question without facing a lot of blustering and nastiness. [...] What has happened is that one very smart, but intellectually isolated young theoretical physicist has made a bold and risky proposal for unification of physics. Due to his personal circumstances, he got much too much media attention - something everyone including him agrees about and several of us including myself tried to stop. A bunch of people who think they own the territory of unification are enraged. They react with all the classic symptoms of territory defense that the sociologists of science have catalogued. ”

Nevertheless, humorous remarks could also be found, e.g. by Peter Woit:[4]

“ As far as I can tell, there seems to be a consensus among the CV [Cosmic Variance] commenters that: 1. We think denigrating and insulting people is a legitimate part of a scientific discussion. 2. We think doing this anonymously is fine too. 3. We don’t understand why it is so hard to have serious discussions about physics on blogs. We suspect it is because PW [Peter Woit] keeps interfering with them. ”

Jacques Distler commented:[5]

“ Allow me to make four predictions for 2008. (1) There will be several further followups to Lisi’s paper. (2) The protagonists will insist (if ever challenged on the matter) that no flaws in Lisi’s or Lee’s paper were ever proven. (3) Anyone who attempts to say otherwise will be denounced as (a) rude, (b) a “string theory partisan”, with suspicious motives. (4) Peter Woit will chime in, to announce that the whole affair reflects badly on the string theorists. ”

I removed some POV (Sautoy doesn't substantiate his remark, but, then, neither does anyone else.) I emphasized the classical nature of Lisi's theory. The reason why this is important is that we already have a classical lagrangian that describes everything -- take the standard model plus general relativity. As always, the hard part is to get a quantum theory which Lisi has not done. I removed the statement that Lisi's model falls into the field of representation theory. Representation theory is a field of mathematics, not of physics. Instead, representation theory is used in non-Abelian gauge theories which are used to describe the non-gravitational forces, so Lisi's use is unremarkable (in the literal sense of the word). I didn't have the energy to fix the "decomposition" given in the text. For example, the number 8 is used to refer to any of three different representations which should be distinguished. I removed many use of the words prediction because the theory is not quantized, so it's tough to say much about it at all. As John Baez's comment notes, it's hard to see how he's going to ever get the standard model parameters out of this even if you ignore all the other difficulties. I also added a few references. I apologize in advance for not sticking around to debate these changes, but given the history of this page so far, I'm not sure I can see it being particularly productive. 71.113.232.47 (talk) 08:00, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Putting theory to the test section

Hello - on March 1st, anonymous IP 71.113.232.47 has given us a high-quality update to the article (that's my opinion, certainly), and described his/her changes on the talk page. Thanks for that.

I understand that the "secondary debates" section can be taken out, as it's more an insight into fragments of scientific debate these days. Maybe that's something for another article, e.g. sociology in science.

I've two remarks on the format of the current article:

  1. We have two breakdowns of E8 into proposed constituent forces; it appears largely duplicate, can we remove one? Either one is fine with me, and the second one appears to be more general, so I'd opt for the second.
  2. The section "putting the theory to the test" appears unneeded to me, because it applies to any model beyond the Standard Model. If we would want to relate to Lisi's comment ("It's not over until the LHC sings"), then a link to a page with physics beyond the standard model should suffice.

Thanks for all the continued, constructive effort! Jens Koeplinger (talk) 13:48, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] NB re falsifiability

I just happened to notice in a slashdot item (I think it was from Wired, a generally cool source) that it seems falsifiability can be mistaken (as it seems to have been by the writer in a generally good critique of scientific journalism, but I may be misconstuing mention vs use); some seem to think falsifiability is a bad thing, as in: the theory is falsifiable, therefore it can be proven false, therefore it is false. When in fact it's a good thing: the theory is falsifiable, therefore it is testable, and if it is mistaken, it can be proven false. I'm more worried about the pseudoscience articles (pseudoscientists don't credit falsifiability, and they are oblivious to Occam's razor), but I thought I'd mention here in light of recent reverts. Pete St.John (talk) 04:01, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

I changed "falsify" to "refute", and it seems a better word for this case. The tests would either affirm the theory, or refute it. John Hyams (talk) 15:14, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
I think the objection was that the model has to specify masses, to be falsifiable; so if the hadron collider doesn't find the right things, they may merely be higher mass, so the model may not be refuted. My supposition is that the work isn't mature enough for sufficiently specific predictions, but I'm no judge. Pete St.John (talk) 02:18, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] pun

Regarding the pun ("exceptionally simple"): puns refer to words, so "pun on the terminology used in the algegbra E8" is redundant compared to "pun on the algebra E8" although "algebraic structure" instead of "algebra" might be better if the word is meant to be used as a noun (since E8 is a Group, not an Algebra, correct?) Pete St.John (talk) 18:46, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] sautoy

An anonymous IP wants to add to Sautoy's criticism that the comment is not elaborated or substantiated. It's merely a comment by an authority. The authority is citable; that's as far as we need to drill down. Not every phrase in every sentence of the article can, or should, contain the whole truth of the matter. Lisi has gotten some reactions, and we quote some of the notable authorities; that's all. Pete St.John (talk) 17:06, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

The rest of the quotes in the criticism section are from people who have substantiated their comments. If you read Sautoy's article, you will see that he is just trying to get attention for his book. His comments, therefore, are not credible. They should be taken out, or at least qualified. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.173.202.218 (talk) 21:05, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Everyone's comments are qualifiable, there is no end to it; including ours. The article quotes professional opinions, not psychoanalyses of the professionals. If there is something specific and citable to impugn one of them, such as a fraud conviction, then by all means cite it, but we don't need opinions about opinions about opinions...Pete St.John (talk) 17:11, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] this article is violation of Wikipedia's policy regarding original research

This original research, which is untestable, conflicts with Wikipedia's stated policy on Original Research: Wikipedia:Original_Research. This article, which constitutes original research that Distler et al have found to be faulty, should be removed until it passes muster with a peer-reviewed journal in the realm of physics. After the orginal media storm funded by FQXI/PI, the theory has been exposed as something that cannot be published in a peer-reviewed physics journal. If this article remains, then every non-peer-reviewed article on physics ought be allowed.

WP:OR refers to the wiki itself, not the wiki's subjects. Our articles cover many things besides peer-reviewed science: fraud, debunking fraud, media storms, and amusing ideas published maybe prematurely, among them. Pete St.John (talk) 17:08, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

What do you mean by: "WP:OR refers to the wiki itself, not the wiki's subjects."

So are you saying that Garrett's article is allowed to exist not because it is "peer-reviewed science," but because it is "fraud, debunking fraud, media storms, and amusing ideas published maybe prematurely."

Should not this descritption be added to the main page?

It seems that Smolin et al are trying to pass off "fraud, debunking fraud, media storms, and amusing ideas published maybe prematurely" as science.

For instance, perhaps a new page should be started based on your words: "The Garrett Lisi Affair: Fraud, Debunking Fraud, Media Storms, and Amusing Ideas Published Maybe Prematurely."

Only thing is, Garrett's theory was self-published, so please title the article: "The Garrett Lisi Affair: Fraud, Debunking Fraud, Media Storms, and Amusing Ideas Self-Published Maybe Prematurely."

 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.159.148.112 (talk) 17:32, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
The OR policy is important so we should address that. It refers to contributors: as a wiki contributor I may not contribute my own original research. If I discover that the Earth is Flat I must publish elsewhere before here. We do, however, have articles about other people's original research. Normally, that's by writing an article (here) about books, papers, articles, etc, elsewhere; those "elsewhere's" are the sources we cite. In this case, our article is not about a peer-reviewed publilcation, but about a web publication and consequent media reaction and (mostly online) debates that followed. That's OK; the military action right now in the Cormoron islands isn't peer-reviewed either, but its on the Main Page. We are constrained to cite reputable sources, that's all.
Note that if this were titled "Lisi's conjecture" or "Lisi's avenue of research" there would be no controversy at all; too much is made of the word "theory". He's just an interesting guy who proposed an interesting approach which got too much publicity but very interesting professional reactions. He's not the Antichrist, nor is he Einstein; the world is filled with unfinished work leading in multitudinous directions, and the wiki helps make some sense of it all. Pete St.John (talk) 19:48, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
I'd just add that the basis for existence of this article is it's WP:Verifiability plus the topic's WP:Notability. WP:OR in most cases applies to how an article should be written, not if. salVNaut (talk) 00:03, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
I'd add more: please feel free to add anything to this article that pushes the article closer to the truth, BUT only if it's backed up by a relevant source. I, for example, am not sure if Distler's argument is the end to all of it. It seemed to me that Lisi, Somolin vs Distler et al were in disagreement on what could constitute to a chiral theory. salVNaut (talk) 00:11, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia's policy is: "Wikipedia does not publish original research (OR) or original thought. This includes unpublished facts, arguments, speculation, and ideas; and any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position. This means that Wikipedia is not the place to publish your own opinions or experiences. Citing sources and avoiding original research are inextricably linked: to demonstrate that you are not presenting original research, you must cite reliable sources that provide information directly related to the topic of the article, and that directly support the information as it is presented."

Garrett Lisi's theory is: 1) an unpublished work. he has only ever self-published it. 2) it is an unpublished argument 3) it is unpublished speculation 4) it contains unfounded, unpublished ideas.

My question is, why are so many people opposed to waiting for it to be published in a physica journal or HEP journal? PI has hundreds of millions of dollars to send anonymous fanboys here, but the hundreds of millions of dollars won't necessarily buy correct math, nor correct group theory, nor the physical truth that is required by peer-reviewed journals. Should not more of all of this be included in the main article? For instance, every time I add the infomration that the theory has not been published in any peer-reviewed journal, someone removes it. Why is that? Are we not allowed to post the truth on wikipedia? Is it now a place for:

1) unpublished work. he has only ever self-published it. 2) unpublished argument 3) unpublished speculation 4) unpublished ideas.

? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.159.148.112 (talk) 02:40, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Unpublished Work

Would it be OK to include facts in the main body of the article, including the fact that Garrett Lisi's theory has not been published in a peer-reviewed phyiscs journal, nor a peer-reviewed science journal, nor a peer-reviewed HEP journal?

I know that including such statements of truth would remind people that the article on Garrett Lisi's theory is in violation of Wikipedia's standards and ought be removed, but is this reason enough to keep the truth off the page? Here is wikipedia's policy: "Wikipedia does not publish original research (OR) or original thought. This includes unpublished facts, arguments, speculation, and ideas; and any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position. This means that Wikipedia is not the place to publish your own opinions or experiences. Citing sources and avoiding original research are inextricably linked: to demonstrate that you are not presenting original research, you must cite reliable sources that provide information directly related to the topic of the article, and that directly support the information as it is presented."

There are strange forces at work here.

Could someone please answer this: "Would it be OK to include facts in the main body of the article, including the fact that Garrett Lisi's theory has not been published in a peer-reviewed phyiscs journal, nor a peer-reviewed science journal, nor a peer-reviewed HEP journal?"

We should keep the Wikipedia article to what was said in public, by notable persons, rather than writing about what was not said (in one's personal view). If you find academic criticism, then you may state it as such and reference it. --- When I left the article on Jan 5, it did include a reference to Dr. Motl's criticism of the mode of publication (arXiv ePrint). Other than that, I have not found notable criticism that was published elsewhere, or could be referenced here. Only because some people believe that posting to arXiv does not constitute "publication" does not mandate that this is to be stated on every Wikipedia article, where the author chose against the formal peer review process. That debate is better handled on the arXiv page. See e.g. the Grigori Perelman article, in which "posting on arXiv" apparently poses no problems. For Dr. Lisi's model, I don't see a notable debate here, either. To be honest, I find it embarrassing that the old wording "published on arXiv" here led to edit warring and bickering, rather than simply changing it e.g. to "posted on arXiv" to avoid the controversy. Koeplinger (talk) 00:59, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your response. Do you think it would be OK to include facts in the main body of the article, including the fact that Garrett Lisi's theory has not been published in a peer-reviewed phyiscs journal, nor a peer-reviewed science journal, nor a peer-reviewed HEP journal?

I would not want to violate wikipedia's policy by publishing such facts in the main body of the article.

Are facts allowed on wikipedia?

Garrett Lisi has been called the next Einstein by Lee Smolin, who helped fund Lisi's theories, which have never been published in a peer-reviewed physics journals.

Einstein published in peer-reviewed journals.

Why 1) does Lisi not want to publish in peer-reviewed physics journals? Why 2) do so many here feel that the fact that the paper isn't published in a peer-reviewed journal ought be censored from the article?

I still haven't seen an answer to the spirit of my question: "Why are media hype and unpublished, non-peer-reviewed speculation allowed on wikipedia, and presented as "science," while facts are opposed, deleted, and censored?"

Perhaps you have seen the errors of your ways, and we can now add the simple fact: "Garrett Lisi's Theory has not been published in any peer-reviewed physics journals, nor in any peer-reviewed science journals."

Do I have your permission to add this truth to the main body? Please advise.

In order to accomplish an improvement to the article, as you may desire, a successful path could be to gauge public attention received, and then describe and reference this attention. This may give your edits longevity. You may find it unfortunate that media hype qualifies as a form of "attention", and I understand that this alone cannot be it. The decision whether to go peer-review or not, the effectiveness of the peer review process in general, the endorsement system of arXiv, and ways of buidling credibility and obtaining funding ... all these are highly interesting topics, which I find notable to be captured in the respective pages. But if we don't constrain a Wikipedia page to what was actually said, by notable sources that are referenced, then the article itself would become a source of original information (even though one may find statements as "true"). The TOE article was posted on arXiv, and presented at several meets. By all means, it was "made public". ... I guess that's the best comment I can give. Thanks, Jens Koeplinger (talk) 17:32, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your most eloquent words.

Could you please also answer my question? Do I have your permission to add the following truth to the main body? "Garrett Lisi's Theory has not been published in any peer-reviewed physics journals, nor in any peer-reviewed science journals."

Is not the public entitled to know this fact?

Are we not allowed to publish facts on wikipedia?

I know several leading scientists. Must I first get one of them to say, "Garrett Lisi's Theory has not been published in any peer-reviewed physics journals, nor in any peer-reviewed science journals," before we can include the fact in the article?

I can start a petition and get several prominent physicists to endorse it. Do you suggest I take this route? Please advise.

Well the article does mention the its publication in arXiv in the lead. I would be most surprised that no one has commented on its unusual method of publication, a citation can no doubt be found, indeed there is quote to this effect higher up this talk page. This may well be best treated in the Publicity and controversy section. I'm unconvinced that we need to make a big deal of it - there is plenty of criticism here which leaves the reader with no doubt on the controversial nature of the work. I am interested in whether Lisi intends to publish in a journal. --Salix alba (talk) 20:18, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I have several friends with work and theories that have been published and disseminated with "unusual methods of publication." Can we now make wikipedia pages for all their work? Please let me know so we can get started. They are all experts in their fields, but have not gone the peer-review route, for the same reasons Lisi didn't. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.159.148.112 (talk) 21:37, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

The fact, true and reported repeatedly, is that Lissi's article was posted to the arxiv. This is stated in the introduction. Whether this qualifies as "published" or not may be debated elsewhere, but I don't think it requires discussion here, or pointing out in the introduction.70.1.89.4 (talk) 07:14, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Great! Can we now procede to create pages for every theory that has been posted at arxiv.org, as you write "Whether this qualifies as "published" or not may be debated elsewhere, but I don't think it requires discussion here, or pointing out in the introduction." So it is that posting a theory to arxiv.org merits a wikipedia page. We have a lot of work to do; and at the very least, all of you wikimasters must refrain from ever deleting pages of articles that were posted to wikipedia, based on self-posted/self-published arxiv.org articles. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.159.148.112 (talk) 17:16, 28 March 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Why Are Winners of the Fields Medal's Comments Not Allowed?

This was deleted: The famous mathematician and theoretical physicist Alain Connes stated, "The ridiculous recent episode of the “exceptionally simple theory of everything” has shown that there is no credibility in the opponents of string theory in the US."[6] why was it deleted? Alain is an expert in the field. He has won several awards, incuding a fields medal. First, arxiv.org counts as publication, and now the opinions of experts are not allowed on wikipedia. 'Tis a brave new day for physics.

Hello - I read the entire article of the quote you provided. Alain Connes was lamenting a lack of opposition to the dominant String Theory research, and was complaining that an out-of-balance situation contributes that almost all positions for hire in physics, regarding fundamental interaction of particles, are in String Theory only. He was attributing this to a (perceived) dominance of strong researchers in the U.S., and by the Europeans merely following. He was apparently not having much hope for the U.S., as opponents on String Theory - in his view - don't enjoy much credibility. --- So, I see the following wrong with the edit you made: Your citation did not nearly represent what was said; then, it was out-of-place (it was in the lead-in of the model); and finally it was more a lament about dominating themes of research in physics, controversial in itself, and therefore I would think this to be more applicable for a "sociology in physics" type article, but not here. Koeplinger (talk) 11:28, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Let me remind you that this was deleted: The famous mathematician and theoretical physicist Alain Connes stated, "The ridiculous recent episode of the “exceptionally simple theory of everything” has shown that there is no credibility in the opponents of string theory in the US."[7] why was it deleted? Alain is an expert in the field. He has won several awards, incuding a fields medal. First, arxiv.org counts as publication, and now the opinions of experts are not allowed on wikipedia. 'Tis a brave new day for physics.

The citation quoted what was said. How does quoting what was said, and providing a reference to what was said, not represent what was said?

Are we not allowed to let prominent mathematicians and theoretical physicists comment on Lisi's theory on wikipedia? What is going on here?!?

Alain Connes was awarded the Fields Medal in 1982, the Crafoord Prize in 2001 and the gold medal of the CNRS in 2004. He is a member of the French Academy of Sciences and several foreign academies and societies, including the Danish Academy of Sciences, Norwegian Academy of Sciences, Russian Academy of Sciences, and US National Academy of Sciences.

I vote that we add Alain Conne's above quote to the Lisi article, as Connes is a certifiable expert.

Lisi's theory and its surrounding hype, lacking sound, concrete math and verifiable equations that can be experimentally tested, and also lacking peer-reviewed publication; seems to be based not on physics, but on the sociology of well-funded Smolinology, which is supported by FQXI and PI which has a few hundred million dollars. Lee Smolin, who has never won a fields medal, called the theory "fabulous." Alain Connes, who won a Fields medal and several other awards questions Lisi's theory. Surely we ought to be able to add his concerns to the wikipedia page. Why in the world would people wish to suppress Conne's view, and censor his reasoned debate, and deny the public the perspective of one of teh world's leading theoretical physicists and mathematicians?