Talk:American West

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Archive I- discusses defining the region, its associated categories, if this article should have been created, redirecting to and merging it with Western United States (the was merge accomplished), and a disputed dempgraphics section (which was untimately rewritten and included).

This article survived a a VFD nomination. You can view an archive of the debate here. The result was keep. -JCarriker 18:18, July 18, 2005 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Disputed

Most commentators today recognize the distinction of the Census Bureau for a number of reasons including ... examples being laws restricting sex toys.

I've spent the last couple of days trying to find any source that defines the American West using these criteria. Admittedly I'm an amateur, but I found no such source. I did find the American West to be an academic study area, with many museums and heritage centers scattered across the country (from Oklahoma to California), and that it is a major part of the tourism industry in those many states. It would seem to me that if most commentators today (or even many or some) were true, I would have at least found a trace. A reputable source would be helpful if this section is to be verified. DialUp 8 July 2005 14:12 (UTC)

I have seen it before and I will try to find something. But the rest of the passage is facts. The official west does not include states such as Texas. I have lived in the West my entire life and have never heard such a thing. We are not only different by location but philosophical outlooks as well. I would say that to include Texas in the modern west is inaccurate, esp. as the Census is the definitve source for the modern west. To include such states as the historical west before Manifest Destiny is fine, but not in the present. Globeism 23:01, 9 July 2005 (UTC)

Visit cnn.com or any other news organization, only the states considered to be the West by the census are such at the present time. Globeism 23:05, 9 July 2005 (UTC)

  • It's taken a long time but I tried my best to check CNN (although they're not my view of an ideal source). I didn't find any articles saying the American West was defined by prostitution, same-sex marriages, polygamy, and such. Here are my searches: "american west" +gambling (0 hits); "american west" +same +sex +marriage (0 hits); "american west" +medical +marijuana (1 hit, but the terms were unrelated); "american west" +polygamy (2 hits, but they refered to the American West, not the census region); and "american west" +prostitution (0 hits).
  • Also some of the facts presented are incorrect. For instance, polygamy, while not specifically authorized, does not appear to have been illegal in any US territory before 1862, and was never legal in Utah. Polygamy was prohibited in the territories by Congress under the Anti-Bigamy Act of 1862, the Poland Act of 1874, the Edmunds Act of 1882, the Edmunds-Tucker Act of 1887, and by the Utah constitution before statehood was granted. I believe Utah is actually the only state with a constitutional clause banning polygamy. The same-sex marriage facts are wrong and also something of a red herring when trying to identify the West; Utah for instance amended its constitution in 2004 to define a marriage as being between a man and a woman, and anyone anywhere can propose any law. And prostitution, although allowed in about 10 counties in Nevada, prohibited in a couple more, and neither prohibited nor legal in the rest, appears to relate only to a single state, not a region. Even so, no source has been provided that says any of this is relevant to delineating the borders of any geographical area.
  • Also, the US Census Bureau region "West" is not the American West and was never intended as such by the Census Bureau. The Bureau is alway quite specific that their regions are for statistical reports only and do not define historical, cultural, or geographical regions. From their website—"Census regions are groupings of states that subdivide the United States for the presentation of data." Other agencies have official regions too. One might want to look at the Bureau of Reclamation map to see the only congressionally approved "West". As stated on the archived talk page, the term American West was never used to refer to any region east of the Mississippi, and the history of those regions is addressed in Trans-Appalachia and Manifest Destiny. The frontier ended in the 1890s with the opening of Indian Territory and there has been no further westward migration which might have moved the borders.
  • I'll copy this section over to the other article when it's completed, if that's all right. DialUp 03:34, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
  • In American West studies the West has always been defined by a sense of libertarianism, not the authoritarianism prevelant in the South. Those above mentions are facts, while Utah amendmed their Constitution it was nowhere near the level of support seen in the south and the Governor is the one who proposed the bill to allow another form of recognition, not just somebody.
  • If the American West article gets merged with the Western United States it should be in the history and the map should not reflect the purported territory of the American West. The Western United States is defined by the government, namely the Census, however we can use a different shade to designate states that have been considered Western by history. For users this is the best approach, it allows them to easily identify the government recognized region and the historical regions at the same time. With your approach they can only identify the historical West and not even the whole thing, its missing the Northwest Territory for example.

Globeism 17:23, 16 July 2005 (UTC)


Dailup can you propose any solutions that will take both into account? I suggest we have a color to designate the government recognized region and another shade to designate the historical region. Does this sound good? Globeism
  • Well, the article has been redirected, but I still hope that some responsible administrator will fix it. The American West is the correct name for an important region of the United States and deserves a real article. I appreciate the link below to PBS The West because it reflects the view of most responsible academians. I posted a request at Wikipedia talk:Deletion policy#American West on VFD for clarification so maybe the problem can be worked out. DialUp 22:12, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Rfc

Whether this page was created by design to avoid the other article or through a mistaken interpretation of what the article was, maintianing two articles is clearly a violation of Wikipedia's policy towards duplicate articles. However I beleive there is a lack of clarity as to how to procede with any action towards this page right now. As such I am filing an Rfc on the page. -JCarriker July 8, 2005 17:49 (UTC)

[edit] What to do with American West survey

This vote is now closed. Further votes will not be counted. The result was 6 for redirecting American West to Western United States, 0 for disambig, and 0 for redirecting Western United States to American West. -JCarriker 01:41, July 13, 2005 (UTC)

American West was changed from a redirect to U.S. West, now located at Western United States due to a change in suggested naming conventions by WikiProject U.S. regions, into a duplicate article [1] on October 29, 2004. American West has been merged with Western United States, but no consensus has been reached over what to do with American West— redirecting to Western United States and disambiging between Western United States and Wild West, have both been proposed. This survey will last from 21:14, July 9, 2005 (UTC) until 21:14, July 12, 2005. Please vote only once. -JCarriker 21:14, July 9, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Redirect to Western United States

  1. -JCarriker 21:14, July 9, 2005 (UTC)
  2. -Redwolf24 21:38, 9 July 2005 (UTC)
  3. Jmabel | Talk 22:42, July 9, 2005 (UTC). I would point out that we also have a topic Wild West. American West seems to be an effort to cover a culture, somewhere between the outright myth of Wild West and the factuality of Western United States. It seems to me that any cultural issues covered at American West could as easily be handled at Western United States. If there is eventually enough material to merit an article on Culture of the American West or Culture of the Western United States, we could spin that out of Western United States at a later date. I don't see the advantage of an article at the title American West. If there is a case for that, someone should state it clearly.
  4. Theresa Knott (a tenth stroke) 22:46, 9 July 2005 (UTC)
  5. UH Collegian 11:45, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
  6. · Katefan0(scribble) 18:22, July 12, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Redirect Western United States here

[edit] Turn into disambig page

[edit] Prostitution

Somewhat surprised to see that only one US state has prostitution, according to the caption of one of the article's images. Or does it refer to legal prostitution? jamesgibbon 19:35, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

  • Yes it mean legal prostition, I imagien every state has illegal prostitution. -JCarriker 20:14, July 10, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Oklahoma and Texas

Oklahoma and Texas have always been part of the West. Anyone who has ever been here will know that. I can give references. DHarjo 20:33, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

  • This has been discussed ad nauseum on the talk page, we already have good references supporting both arguements. The consensus is to include TX & OK in the may or may not category rather than the always category. Please see the above archive. Thanks. -JCarriker 22:03, July 15, 2005 (UTC)

You're right. I'm a dumb illiterate. That's why I can't read or turn pages. Maybe that's why I can't find the references you say says Oklahoma and Texas are may or may not Western states and why I can't find the consensus you talk about. Maybe you can put <red> and </red> on either side of them so I can find them. DHarjo 08:41, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

I never said anything of questioning your intelligence or literacy, I was polite and even thanked you for your inquirey, and directed you to where you could see where this issue was previously discussed. Until you correct your negative attitude I have no intention of lifting a finger to help you with anything. -JCarriker 18:54, July 16, 2005 (UTC)
DHarjo, the tone of your remark seems totally inappropriate. That said, go to Talk:American_West/archive1, search for "Texas". The upshot is, sure, El Paso is in the West, but, for example, Galveston certainly isn't. -- Jmabel | Talk 21:26, July 16, 2005 (UTC)

I come here trying to help and you brush me off and treat me like a child. You're wrong about Texas.--University of Texas, Spring 2005: The Contemporary American West "Course Description: In this course we will look at modern novels, short stories, and essays that have as their focus the nature of the American West, particularly Texas. Some of the works examine the myth of the “wild west”—cowboys, Indians, outlaws, and the like. Others deal with the vanishing West of legend. Others more specifically offer comment on the nature of the modern American West." DHarjo 23:19, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

  • You took the hostile tone not I. -JCarriker 01:43, July 18, 2005 (UTC)
It's clear to me that Texas straddles the line -- South and West. There are aspects of both cultures, activities and histories. · Katefan0(scribble) 23:31, July 17, 2005 (UTC)
  • Yes, exactly; thank you. -JCarriker 01:43, July 18, 2005 (UTC)

I don't know any of you but I do know Ken Burns credentials. I respect his view of the West (PBS The West) because everything he does is well-researched and documented. I also believe my experiences in Texas and the courses I've taken. I don't know any source that says Texas is not part of the West. Until you document what you say, how can anyone believe it. DHarjo 02:55, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Well, I've lived in Texas virtually all of my life. Also, I don't think anybody here has said Texas isn't part of the West. What I personally have said is that it's part of both -- a curious, wonderful amalgamation. It's its own entity. It takes from both geographic regions and cultures. It is both West, and South, and because of that not quite exactly either. · Katefan0(scribble) 03:37, July 18, 2005 (UTC)

You've got the question backwards. The question is, "Is there any definition of the West that doesn't include Texas?" The answer is no. No university in the West that has a Western Studies chair or department ever ignores Oklahoma, Texas, or any of the plains states in any comprehensive study of the West. I notice that someone has erased this article and forwarded readers to a page that now tries to pretend California and the other West Coast states are not part of the West. How bizarre. I had such high hopes for Wikipedia. DHarjo 12:50, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

I'm sorry to hear you're disappointed. You may find it less stressful to work on other topics. Good luck · Katefan0(scribble) 14:19, July 19, 2005 (UTC)

Stressed. Hardly. This is the kind of activity you expect from teen-agers. Disappointed. Yes. The welcome on my discussion page listed a lot of pages that talked about citing sources and all kinds of noble ideas. Since my interest is the American West I have quite a number of books published by some of the most respected people in the field. I thought some of that would make a nice addition to the American West article. Turns out that all that noble talk was hot air. Nobody here cares about references and sources. Yes, I am disappointed. You know, if you and your buddy really believed yourselves, you would both be over fixing the Southern United States that say Texas is always part of the South and the Texas page that never mentions the West. DHarjo 22:34, 19 July 2005 (UTC) If you really are teenagers, I apologize. Teenagers are just as smart and can do just as careful research as anyone else. DHarjo 18:01, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

No, I'm far from a teenager, but I still appreciate your bigness of heart. It's never easy to apologize. Thanks. · Katefan0(scribble) 18:11, July 20, 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, one year too old to qualify. However, like Kate, I still appreciate your gesture. -JCarriker 23:51, July 20, 2005 (UTC)